Posts by incoherentmumblings@mastodon.cloud
(DIR) Post #AhpbvPIJwaTiSY0e12 by incoherentmumblings@mastodon.cloud
2024-05-13T00:18:12Z
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@futurebird @tob And it did get worse in the south before it got better, didn't it? Not only did they have slavery, but they were also being killed and the economy collapsed when they starting losing the war. So, again, classic situation of it had to get worse before it could get better.
(DIR) Post #AhpckwSkNwEQ66SaLQ by incoherentmumblings@mastodon.cloud
2024-05-13T00:27:31Z
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@futurebird No, the thesis is that in certain situations there's no way to a better future that does not come with a temporary worsening of the overall situation.You are ruled by oligarchs that have subverted the democratic process, it's futile to look towards that exact process to try and make it better. To get rid of them, you can't use the legal framework that they have set up precisely to prevent you from doing that. Revolution doesn't come as cheap and comfortable as voting, sorry.@tob
(DIR) Post #AhpfMxO7ao5vscYEEK by incoherentmumblings@mastodon.cloud
2024-05-13T00:55:33Z
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@tob I guess here we have two prime examples of people who are still too comfortable to face the facts.You are being owned by the oligarchs. They own your government, they own your banks, they own your judicial system and they own your military. No amount of voting is going to change it, but of course you can pretend otherwise and arrange yourself with the new fascism for a while, as long as you are white and well educated, i guess. That's what most germans did, too.@Jackiemauro @futurebird
(DIR) Post #Ahpfn8CtzSTixomgZU by incoherentmumblings@mastodon.cloud
2024-05-13T01:01:34Z
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@futurebird But changing those things through "other means" is already impossible. Look at how the supposedly less fascist option reacts to having its genocidal foreign policy challenged by some students with banners: The full might of armored and armed pigs combined with a propaganda onslaught that would have made Göbbels jealous.So, again, how does voting or not voting make a difference in circumstances that allow changing those things through other means? @tob @Jackiemauro
(DIR) Post #AhpgaffoLtKywmvdUe by incoherentmumblings@mastodon.cloud
2024-05-13T01:10:21Z
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@futurebird That depends on what you mean by "other means". The question here was: How does voting or not voting influence chances to achieve change for a better?At this point there seems no legal way for me to change the things that would need to be changed before it can get better, and there is not enough of a critical and aware mass that a revolution would actually make productive sense. @tob @Jackiemauro
(DIR) Post #AhpjrE6cOuWaEW3MlU by incoherentmumblings@mastodon.cloud
2024-05-13T00:39:34Z
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@glitzersachen There were actually a lot of pushbacks in germany, before the fascists managed to kill most of the resistance. But i made sure to talk of internal *or external* pushbacks, the nazis followed a political ideology that made sure that they eventually succumbed to external 'pushback' in the form of allied troops, most notably in the form of Georgy Zhukov and the Soviet red army.1/2@tob @futurebird
(DIR) Post #AhpjrFESDGO1j6j8cK by incoherentmumblings@mastodon.cloud
2024-05-13T00:44:36Z
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@glitzersachen Them among others, sure. But before 33 there was a lot more in german society that fought fascists, even social democrats ;)But after the nazis had seized power, there was still a lot of underground left opposition.@tob @futurebird
(DIR) Post #AhpjrFw3b9GTuL7xa4 by incoherentmumblings@mastodon.cloud
2024-05-13T00:50:47Z
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@glitzersachen The Theory is that it had to get worse before it got better after the Nazis took power. There was no possible way of incremental small steps towards something better. And worse it got, Germany had to be steamrolled from both sides and bombed for years before it could get better.Wether it was a LOT or just a little bit of internal pushback is beside the point and open to definition anyway. The point stands: It had to get worse before it could get better.@tob @futurebird
(DIR) Post #AhpjrH6NGH6zWcxiIi by incoherentmumblings@mastodon.cloud
2024-05-13T01:04:15Z
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@glitzersachenYou are misrepresenting my "theory".I am not saying it ALWAYS has to get worse to get better, that would indeed be paradoxical. So please, spare me the cheap straw men and engage with my actual argument: In *certain situations* it has to get worse before it can get better.In fact that is so obvious i am astounded that it is even debated. @tob @futurebird
(DIR) Post #AhpjrIe5WPfqJTk9UO by incoherentmumblings@mastodon.cloud
2024-05-13T01:17:50Z
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@glitzersachen You do not need to teach the basics of theory of science to me, thanks. I have given lectures on it myself.It wasn't me who tried to claim it was anything more than a phrase to highlight the fact that there is not always a way of incremental change towards the better without first accepting serious adverse effects.And yes: there is a necessity. When you got cancer, you *have* to do chemo and it *will* make you worse at first. Or i guess you can just give up. @tob @futurebird
(DIR) Post #AhpjrKSolHqZx6UBCS by incoherentmumblings@mastodon.cloud
2024-05-13T01:28:11Z
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@glitzersachen That's not how chemo works.So, let me get that straight - you are saying that there are no situations that can not be bettered by small incremental steps towards something better, without the overall situation ever having to get worse first?@tob @futurebird
(DIR) Post #AhpjrLRn6acV0D0sEq by incoherentmumblings@mastodon.cloud
2024-05-13T01:37:46Z
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@glitzersachen Response here because they blocked me to prevent me from calling out their bullshit:Except i never called it a theory, and i even put the "thesis" in (slightly ironic) quotation marks.But yea, i also have better things to do and in fact i do feel certain 'vibrations' in your responses too.If you believe there are no situations that require things to get worse before they can get better, go ahead and believe so, i don't care. @tob @futurebird
(DIR) Post #AhpjrMNvcR7luWDIrA by incoherentmumblings@mastodon.cloud
2024-05-13T01:43:50Z
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@glitzersachen Of course we both know it was never about that, you don't actually doubt that there are situations that require it to get worse before it can get better, you just don't want to admit that the US is run by a one party-two right wings oligarchy and voting won't change things for the better, and you're consciously or unconsciously using all the tricks of the eristic playbook of pseudologics and populism to evade that conclusion.@tob @futurebird
(DIR) Post #AhpjrQxAdLgw4yjVLM by incoherentmumblings@mastodon.cloud
2024-05-13T00:41:06Z
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@glitzersachen And without the Revolution, and the restauration, and the revolution again france would still be a feudal shithole where only a small percentage of the population can even read and write, yet alone dream of political participation. So a classic case of it had to get worse before it could get better.@tob @futurebird
(DIR) Post #Ahpjye4OGW4AmoY59k by incoherentmumblings@mastodon.cloud
2024-05-13T01:48:27Z
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@futurebirdThe advantage to things getting worse is that they can get better afterwards. Again: in certain situations, and it does not necessarily get better. But sometimes it has to get worse before it can get better, idk why that isn't just plain obvious: voting will not change a system that has rigged not only the voting process, but also controls the options that can be voted. @alter_kaker @imstilljeremy @tob
(DIR) Post #AhpkLyaI9ulx4UaydU by incoherentmumblings@mastodon.cloud
2024-05-13T01:52:40Z
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@futurebird*sigh*I am not saying its great that it sometimes has to get worse before it gets better. I am just saying that it's a fact. If i could change it, i would. But since i am not omnipotent i have to accept certain things in life, and one of them is that there are situations where the first step towards something better is in a direction that is worse at first. If no one ever took that step, we'd still be stuck in feudalism. @glitzersachen @tob
(DIR) Post #AhrGVDcV19X6082T8i by incoherentmumblings@mastodon.cloud
2024-05-13T07:16:01Z
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@hallvors @futurebird Except i did not say "it has to get worse" to say "Trump has to win". I said it will get worse, no matter who wins the election, before it gets better.It might even be different people who it gets worse for.I am aware of the technical possibilities, but you fool yourself if you think that your vote will prevent them from being used.
(DIR) Post #AhrGVFBdC1EGrNU2XQ by incoherentmumblings@mastodon.cloud
2024-05-13T15:32:55Z
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@hallvors @futurebird Leave the voting out of that list and you will be just as effective, if not more so because you don't have to deal with the cognitive dissonance of having lent your support to one of the fascists that send their pigs against you to violate you and throw you in jail as soon as you start to do things that *actually* have potential to annoy them.
(DIR) Post #AhrGVFssbDp91ViZwu by incoherentmumblings@mastodon.cloud
2024-05-13T07:23:05Z
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@hallvors @futurebird And of course, "gets worse" refers to a state other then the one right now. That does not imply that you could stop time and and just remain in the now.
(DIR) Post #AhrJGjAriVxtNqtYR6 by incoherentmumblings@mastodon.cloud
2024-05-13T19:58:36Z
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@futurebird @hallvors Who says i do care? If you're out in the street at this point, learning every day that the cops can get away with any violation of your supposed rights *already*, then you are one of those that will arrange themselves when the current protofascism drops it's mask. In fact, it IS already dropping its mask, and you pretend not to see it.