Post AYHAmhbPjYqI936mG0 by RL_Dane@fosstodon.org
(DIR) More posts by RL_Dane@fosstodon.org
(DIR) Post #AYHATGRqT8CMQQMcXw by spaceraser@fosstodon.org
2023-08-01T02:12:16Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
Woke up this morning #BSD curious. For all the users out there, is there a reason for someone running Linux desktop to consider running #BSDDesktop (of any kind or flavor), or is it more useful to have as a tool for servers? My only previous experience with BSD is brief dalliances with TrueNAS.
(DIR) Post #AYHATHHbMhbB0wZxDc by royal@theres.life
2023-08-01T02:47:47Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@spaceraser @RL_Dane, didn't you mess around with a bsd desktop?
(DIR) Post #AYHATHxmprLJ7mJdyK by RL_Dane@fosstodon.org
2023-08-01T04:06:35Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@royal @spaceraserOk, this is a straight-up novel / brain dump. XD- - -Aye!First of all, if you're thinking of messing around with BSD on a laptop... eh, good luck. Things like suspend and hardware compatibility on BSD is more like Linux in the "good old days."...
(DIR) Post #AYHATIZ0bT7IzDjMzQ by RL_Dane@fosstodon.org
2023-08-01T04:06:57Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@royal @spaceraser...#OpenBSD will probably give you the best hardware compatibility, in my experience, but possibly the worst performance, because of the very heavy security mitigations (hey, there's a reason they're there. I'm not knocking it, but I *am* realistic/pragmatic about it)....
(DIR) Post #AYHATJGbzLzlAS8BxA by RL_Dane@fosstodon.org
2023-08-01T04:07:08Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@royal @spaceraser...#FreeBSD is the most Linux like, and even has partial Linux binary compatibility. #OpenBSD is more security-focused, is a smaller and more focused (there's that word again) team, priorities-wise. #NetBSD probably has the strongest ties to the BSD of old, and has the least surprises for a BSD veteran. But I spent very little time on Net, so I can't say much about it....
(DIR) Post #AYHATJuJbjkp9ahtq4 by RL_Dane@fosstodon.org
2023-08-01T04:07:18Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@royal @spaceraser...Whats the main pitch for BSD?ITISUnix,period.Not a bizarre-but-lovable-and-extremely-useful hodgepodge of unixynness, windowsiness, and maciness. (I'm talking about Linux -- and *not* hating. I'm typing on a Linux box now)...
(DIR) Post #AYHATKdKuLlbPDlr0q by RL_Dane@fosstodon.org
2023-08-01T04:07:38Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@royal @spaceraser...With #BSD, there's no silly info pages or html help (at least as a primary source of documentation). There's just REALLY good manpages, especially on OpenBSD. FreeBSD comes with (or it might be an optional install) their excellent handbook as a PDF you can peruse at your leisure. Again, NetBSD I have the least knowledge of.My experience with the big three #BSDs:...
(DIR) Post #AYHATLKEKs4tYFq6s4 by RL_Dane@fosstodon.org
2023-08-01T04:07:52Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@royal @spaceraser...#OpenBSD - This is an OPERATING SYSTEM, not a distro. Very nicely organized. It's created by people who love unix, and is not beholden to any corporate sugar daddies (although they *do* work with them and give their code away freely). I had horrible performance on my Core 2 Duo, sadly. BUT it dealt with S3 suspend on my laptop flawlessly....
(DIR) Post #AYHATM7VNfUe14tSfw by RL_Dane@fosstodon.org
2023-08-01T04:08:27Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@royal @spaceraser...The installer is just a script, but it's relatively straightforward, and there's a very good install walkthrough video series on YT and #PeerTube by "Charlie Root" a.k.a. "Root BSD". Do beware, though -- he's a neat guy, but a bit of a sh*tposter and patterns himself a bit on Luke Smith, which is a rather interesting character....
(DIR) Post #AYHATMoOoBnwA6xiXA by RL_Dane@fosstodon.org
2023-08-01T04:08:43Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@royal @spaceraser...Also check out The OpenBSD Guy on youtube. Very nice guy from what I can tell from his videos, and he's got that great Persian accent, kinda like ElectroBOOM. ;)One more thing about the OpenBSD devs... they "dog food" their stuff. I don't think you'll *EVER* see an OpenBSD presenter making a presentation on a macbook or windowze machine....
(DIR) Post #AYHATNd5liM0hKgCY4 by RL_Dane@fosstodon.org
2023-08-01T04:08:53Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@royal @spaceraser...#NetBSD - This felt like #OpenBSD minus the super aggressive security mitigations (Open is a fork of Net). It could not S3 suspend at all, so I didn't spend much time on it. I don't remember the installation process, but since I don't remember struggling with it or having to go through a video walkthrough, it must have been easy enough. ;)One of the main (I think) NetBSD devs has a presence on the #Fediverse, and is very helpful....
(DIR) Post #AYHATORQkYcVDSEP0i by sehnsucht@social.sdf.org
2023-08-01T04:41:33Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@RL_Dane @royal @spaceraser what lead to you to think NetBSD lacks exploit mitigations ? My, my...https://man.netbsd.org/security.7http://www.netbsd.org/support/security/https://blog.netbsd.org/tnf/entry/the_strongest_kaslr_ever
(DIR) Post #AYHATPb2SJtqnXjacq by RL_Dane@fosstodon.org
2023-08-01T04:09:52Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@royal @spaceraser...#FreeBSD - This is the more corporate and slightly linux-y BSD, but it's still a true BSD and a true Unix. It didn't feel quite as cohesive as OpenBSD, but still far more so than Linux, in terms of organization and documentation. Performance was great, but it took 30 seconds to resume from S3 suspend, every time. It would be amazing to run on an old desktop, not so much a laptop (in my experience with a single machine)....
(DIR) Post #AYHATRRBbvCuVZ8kXw by RL_Dane@fosstodon.org
2023-08-01T04:10:02Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@royal @spaceraser...Also, FreeBSD has the easiest installer, vaguely similar to Debian's text mode installer.Check out GaryH Tech on YT for FreeBSD stuff.Also, @ianthetechie is a FreeBSD user and great guy to talk to.PHEW! There it is. :D
(DIR) Post #AYHATTPUHD2KcsMQAy by RL_Dane@fosstodon.org
2023-08-01T04:29:04Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@royal @spaceraser @ianthetechieOh, one more thing,#OpenBSD includes Xorg and some VERY basic utilities in the base OS install.#FreeBSD only gives you a text mode install. Xorg is in the ports. Can't remember about NetBSD.In BSD, there's kind of two package managers -- the OS-level, that takes care of the OS file, and the Ports package manager, that gives you stuff like firefox and GIMP....
(DIR) Post #AYHATVGLOAuYN669Ca by RL_Dane@fosstodon.org
2023-08-01T04:29:22Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@royal @spaceraser @ianthetechie...The OS level packages are literally just tarballs (.tgz files in OpenBSD), but Ports uses a more linux-like package manager that deals with dependencies and so on. There's only about a dozen OS ("base install") packages (which you select upon installing, and which get updated/upgraded with a separate command), but thousands of Ports packages available....
(DIR) Post #AYHATXCWBN2UNoK7W4 by RL_Dane@fosstodon.org
2023-08-01T04:29:38Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@royal @spaceraser @ianthetechie...In OpenBSD, there's a bit of a prevalent philosophy of preferring base packages over ports. So someone might use xsetroot (even though it's only bichromatic) rather than something like feh or nitrogen to set the wallpaper, because xsetroot is in the base install. Same goes for something like xlock vs xscreensaver, or Perl over Python maybe....
(DIR) Post #AYHATZBApL9UWDi4hM by RL_Dane@fosstodon.org
2023-08-01T04:30:01Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@royal @spaceraser @ianthetechie...I tried to use their own cwm window manager instead of i3wm, and got it eventually configured so that it was almost indistinguishable from i3 at a glance.But it's NOT a rule. The ports are there to be used, and you couldn't do much (unless you only want to do basic webserving and/or programming/scripting) with only the base install....
(DIR) Post #AYHATayq8ATU6XxFke by RL_Dane@fosstodon.org
2023-08-01T04:30:27Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@royal @spaceraser @ianthetechie...So while your Linux box will have thousands of packages (1709 on this relatively pared-down Debian box), a BSD box might only have a few hundred or few dozen packages (Ports) installed, because the base install isn't counted.One more thing I wanted to stress: BSD is an operating system. Linux is a kernel that gets included in distributions with varying level of completeness, organization, sanity, and purpose....
(DIR) Post #AYHATd9u20VorR97Gy by RL_Dane@fosstodon.org
2023-08-01T04:30:37Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@royal @spaceraser @ianthetechie...Any package in the BSD base install is "owned" by the BSD. They review the code, make changes to it, make sure it's doing everything they want it to do. It's not just "shovelware" like linux packages ("Want ifconfig? You shouldn't! Nobody is updating it to work with new hardware! Use ip instead. Ok, put DOWN the pitchforks!!!") lol...
(DIR) Post #AYHATfBOVQtT8drKsK by RL_Dane@fosstodon.org
2023-08-01T04:30:41Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@royal @spaceraser @ianthetechie...If I sound like I'm being down on Linux, I'm only being critical of what I love the most, OS-wise. It's so utterly fantastic, capable, and powerful. But it's got its warts, and I'm not against pointing them out at times.
(DIR) Post #AYHAmhbPjYqI936mG0 by RL_Dane@fosstodon.org
2023-08-01T04:45:05Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sehnsucht @royal @spaceraserOk, sorry, didn't mean it as a dig against #NetBSD! XDI was mainly comparing the performance, which I surmised was due to OpenBSD's mitigations.I'm glad NetBSD has a good emphasis on security as well, and I look forward to trying it again. :)P.S. I love it when FOSS folks jump up to defend their beloved projects (with facts and mostly good attitudes, heh). It's such a good thing to see, and I always enjoy the interactions.
(DIR) Post #AYHC7XR2pYGkeBl19M by sehnsucht@social.sdf.org
2023-08-01T05:00:05Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@RL_Dane @royal @spaceraser I wouldn't bet on poor performance on OpenBSD being due to mitigations (but maybe SMT off by default?). Many OSs apply the same kind of mitigations.What impacts OpenBSD performance is a coarse-grained lock in large chunks of the kernel (this is being improved over the years). Then you also have TCP/IP stack and i/o throughput where they don't shine. The project has always prioritized other things, which is a blessing and a curse at the same time.
(DIR) Post #AYHCf9CvPnFdLtBATQ by sehnsucht@social.sdf.org
2023-08-01T05:06:09Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@RL_Dane @royal @spaceraser That said, it's not like NetBSD performance is *that* better (maybe somewhere in between OpenBSD and FreeBSD) . The only BSD which can almost keep up with Linux in this field is FreeBSD. System performance is a complex matter, requires a lot of work, so never take it for granted: https://www.brendangregg.com/linuxperf.html
(DIR) Post #AYHyIFGPWm6NH4xFRo by RL_Dane@fosstodon.org
2023-08-01T13:59:49Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sehnsucht @royal @spaceraserMy machine doesn't have hyperthreading support.The problem I was having wasn't in network throughput but chiefly i/o, I believe, and probably also a lot of latency in other areas that I'm not as aware of. It was almost unusable....
(DIR) Post #AYHyO1puMbDJMqJeTo by RL_Dane@fosstodon.org
2023-08-01T14:00:54Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sehnsucht @royal @spaceraserI wish I had spent more time in NetBSD, but it didn't seem to have the same problem as OpenBSD on that hardware.