Subj : Re: USB 3 Issue? To : Barry Martin From : Ky Moffet Date : Sat Mar 07 2020 14:23:00 BARRY MARTIN wrote: > Hi Ky! > > > > So I taught you something for a change! :) > > KM> It can happen, despite myself. > > "Sometimes better to bend in the breeze like the mighty willow." > KM> Willow grow on riverbank. River flood, willow become raft. :P > Sell to a person downriver: bye/buy raft@! Good deals! sold to swimmers only. > > > KM> WTF is IOMMU ?? > > IDK! > KM> AASQ... > Get a thousand replies in the forum! This is true. :D > KM> Um, yeah... stupid Debian under there... never, ever again want > KM> to hear some linux weenie crow about all the interruptions during > KM> a Windows install. Never had to babysit any OS install so much in > KM> my life, plus it took an hour. Debian did not stay. > I'll have to agree somewhat: did have to babysit the IOMMU part but the > rest of the install went fine -- once I found out the one RAM stick was > faulty. Seems like the IOMMU switching issue could and should be worked > around -- can't be done remotely. Works fine, just requires a lot of fiddling, and is very very slow. > > KM> Conversely, PCLOS is a few clicks and takes five minutes. > > "All depends": my Ubuntu 18.04 install -- once figured out the problems Nope, not. Even PCLOS's fully loaded 4GB ISO takes five minutes. Fact is the older linux installers were ....awful. PCLOS now has a script that tho doesn't do updates on its own, lets you know when to click the bell and get it done automagically. Think this contaged over from Fedora, only other place I've seen it. Painless and no-brainer. The advantage of a rolling distro: one of our regulars did an update from the oldest KDE edition he could get to run (2012) and with only a couple halts to dick with CLI due to WTFs, in an hour or so achieved a fully updated system where everything worked. > -- took maybe a half-hour to forty-five minutes and that was with the > automatic updates. Took a while to format the drive (3 TB), then > installed Firefox, LibreOffice, etc., from the ISO, and then uninstall > and install the updated versions because I had ticked to install > updates during the install. Seems would be easier and certainly faster > to "if new available then don't install old" but probably easier said > than done. How about just release an updated version ??! My original PCLOS has been frozen since 2017 (didn't want to deal with nVidia issues, nor lose my deprecated font manager) but I've experimentally done a full update on it... took a while to download a whole new monkey, but installed without a hitch. > KM> There's a bug in a lot of mainboard designs where either front > KM> USB or back USB will work, but not at the same time. This was so > KM> common for a while I didn't bother plugging in the front ones. > I don't think I've run in to that one -- plug in a thumbdrive and the > mouse and keyboard stop working!! No, I mean only one or the other will EVER work; you don't get a choice. If you plug in a thumbdrive and other stuff stops working, probably has not enough power to the ports. Which might be what's going on with these boards -- can't deliver enough juice so just turns one off. > KM> Well, that'll do it... RAM dies but rarely, but when it does... > It was brand-new-slice-open-package but still still can be faulty. Like Yeah... *cough* Kingston... > probably most people I assumed it was good. The stick passed the quick > tests, which is what I would guess install procedures use to check. Oh > well - good training experience. Frustrating, though! Irritating too! > > > The RAM issue and the IOMMU issue combined... had thought of that > > computer you said you hung on the fence as a lesson to the other > > computers! > KM> That was a typewriter! But the principle is the same. It's Been > KM> Warned. > > Probably easier to hang a typewriter on a fence than a computer! It runs slower and was easier to catch. > KM> Haha... had been delaying because the logistics were untenable. > KM> Then Silver's guts tried to die, so I can just eject 'em, no need > KM> to play musical motherboards. > > That makes things easier when don't have to have two boxes working at > the same time. I've reused cases, though some times have found it would > have been easier to get new: one recent issue was the cables for the ATX > Power Connector were squished under the HDD cage. Must have been for a > smaller verions of the ATX motherboard. Ugh... yeah, I have to be careful with the Dells in their teeny tiny cases, cuz teeny tiny wires and absolutely no clearance. And these aren't the teeniest model! > I don't recall having to much problem with Linux and video, though I may > have been side-stepping it because of a preference of MythTV in the past > to have liked nVidia over other options, nVidia driver has multiple incompatible versions. Merely updating the 'wrong' version can nuke your display. (Been there, done that, had to hand-edit some stupid config file and use Puppy to copy it wherever it went. Never, ever again complain about how the registry is so terrible.) > KM> Addendum: Silver is now Silver II, with shiny 'new' (only 5 years > KM> old) innards, but yet awaiting an OS. XP won't run and I'd > KM> forgotten how annoying naked Win7 is. Linux, sadly, isn't quite > KM> there for everyday. > > XP probably needs approval from Redmond so that might be the answer to > that problem. (Wonder what will happen when I install a new virtual XP? > The current ones I think were before the end of support.) As of last month you can still activate XP, tho for how long remains to be seen... I have an actual for really VLK number, when I bother to use it; no activation required. More often I just PHFFT! in Redmond's direction. :P > As for Linux and everyday, around here seems to be fine. Do run into > issues where 'only runs under Windows' but that's similar to when the > Macs were the go-to machine for graphic design. (Bet there's a more up- > to-date example, just can't come up with one based on what I do.) Not so much that, as that I live in the file manager, and there is no good substitute for XP's File Explorer (many are more capable, but no others are equally reliable while being equally easy). This is actually my #1 irritation with later Windows, and with many species of linux. And why one of the first things I install on linux is XFE. It don't know no network, but at least works as expected on the local machine. > > KM> When I get it apart, I'll stick the PSU on the tester that reads > > KM> voltage; seems to be very accurate. I don't think anything this > > KM> mainboard says can be trusted at this point. > KM> And according to the tester, the PSU is fine. However... > > Seems to point to mainboard issues. Or something attached drawing more > power than should. Ya think? > > KM> The reason the board was misbehaving was flamingly obvious once I > KM> had all the other junk out of the way: Two blown capacitors, as > KM> in tried to explode and have rods of boiled-off gunk sticking out > KM> the top. (First time I've seen a PC throw a rod...) So I'd guess > KM> those two caps just happen to be in the voltage-control circuit, > KM> and durn good thing it decided to fade rather than spike! > > Ah! Those cap's would do it! I had a NARRA5 motherboard with a few of > those. The cap's weren't quite as bad as what you described. Pasty tasty: So found other complaints similar to S/i/l/v/e/r/ Tarnish on the same Asus P5B Deluxe: === From a repair tech: This series of boards has a cap near the south bridge that has almost literally a 100% failure rate after years of service. === From a newegg review: Cons: After about a year, the USB ports all died. In windows XP they would just constantly 'pop' with errors in windows, complaining about unknown devices, unplug errors, and the popping windows sound would go off every 3-5 seconds. No devices worked using the ports, had to disable them in bios. In linux, the USB ports spewed all sorts of errors on boot, and likewise nothing could be used on USB === Huh. Maybe that's why Silver was always reluctant to turn loose of USB devices. Always had to eject, then re-eject via the green doohickey, then often enough, wait and repeat. Didn't realise that could be hardware! Cash doesn't do that, it turns loose when told, first time. Will be interesting to see how Cash (with the Taiwan-made PCB) does once it has the same hours on it (it probably has about 20% as much uptime). And when the fail is that consistent and that localized... it's a design problem in the board, not inherently faulty capacitors. (There's a third cap of the same type on the other side, and it's fine.) So... not worth repairing, methinks; it'll just do it again, and who knows what it might cook along the way. And the very first symptom was... I'd thought my external USB3 hub had died. Had to replace it. So hauled it out and guess what? Nothing wrong with it; it was apparently a bit more demanding of the ports, and was the first to recognize that they'd gone bogus. Works fine now!! Well, I needed another hub; that was cheap. Now if I can find its power brick... probably got repurposed. > KM> This was where I also noted a subtle difference between these > KM> identical boards: > KM> Good one: PCB made in Taiwan. > KM> Bad one: PCB made in China. (And version label is pasted on > KM> rather than silkscreened.) > > Initially I'd guess the same board just made in two different factories > but the version lable thing almost indicates some other minor difference > -- addition of a component manually tacked in? Used the old motherboard > supply. Most likely some corner cutting (this is why outsourcing your flagship product is a bad idea!), resulting in either another component that's causing issues, or a faulty trace in the PCB. > KM> My tester simulates draw, tho you can usually get different > KM> readings by adding a couple fans or HDs. I was already an Enermax > KM> bigot, and became a worse one after I used it to test all the > KM> "tested good" PSUs and found only Enermax were 100% good ALL the > KM> time (no spikes or sags). > > Sort of because of you I've been using PSUs with higher current/wattage > capabilities. If a PSU needs replacing have been increasing the specs > -- orig 300 W, replace with a 700W, for example. Sometimes can't: have Yeah... most of the namebrand systems use the dead minimum. I have two here (Dell and HP) that arrived "dead" and merely giving 'em a heavier PSU performed a miracle. Nothing wrong with the old PSU, just not enough capacity to run the default system, at least not once it got a little age on it. (My cynical little voice wishes to remind us that this is by design, because it stresses other components and fairly reliably causes death just out of warranty.) > at least one computer where the PSU has to be the same to fit because > of the L-shape. What? still using the Super XT?? :D TOPower makes some oddballs even now. I've had two of their AT PSUs and they're excellent. Dunno about their others (by repute not so good, but the AT models were fantastic.) > > Would be funny if 'just' that IOMMU setting! > KM> It would be a lot better than two exploded capacitors!! > > Which probably also means other are ready to! Or maybe not, if it's a design flaw elsewhere. Was perhaps running too much current through those caps... would explain why it happened just to those two, and not just to me. > > > > > KM> Regardless... Something Went Wrong! > > > I tend to concur! > > KM> D'oh!! ("Something Went Wrong!" is the standard Mac error > > KM> message. Very helpful, in Apple's usual way.) > > Yeah: I know 'something went wrong'! > KM> It sure did! > Plus reminded me of Dad's tube-type amplifier. We smelt something 'hot' > but couldn't figure out what it was. Music was on. I finally happened > to see something odd through the grill vents ==> was a resistor about > the diameter and length on one's little finger glowing red hot. Ended > up a capacitor failed, causing too much current through the resistor, > causing it to glow (was wirewound and IIRC 7 Watts -- think the brighter > of the two night light bulbs available), also damaged another resistor > which was 25 W ==> could see the plastic covering had melted some. Oy!! There's a house fire in training, if you left the unit on while you were gone... I remember seeing vacuum tubes glow hot enough to make the glass bell sag. Don't think I miss those days of hidden fire hazards. > I'm starting to think for future builds I should go back to Intel. When > I started Linux Intel was more compatible so went with them. Then > either AMD wised up and saw they were missing out in the marketplace and > so worked with Linux. Your comments, others' comments, and a bit of > personal experience indicate Intel is still the better of the two. I've tried to be enthusiastic about AMD, but then reality intrudes. Don't care how much cheaper AMD is, or how many gaming benchmarks AMD tops out... they're just not worth the aggravation. And as noted, I've seen WAY more AMD motherboards die, too. Probably 10x as often as Intel boards. > KM> And too good to throw away... as storage on a Pi sounds good. I > KM> wound up with a bunch of flash drives I was using as Poor Man's > KM> external HDs. > For fun I had the Lexar 128 MB on this machine for a while -- shows up > on the Desktop as an external drive and I did use it a few times as a > scratchpad device. ...Hanging it off a RPi seems a logical use, though > still a bit odd as have been using microSDs of 32 and 64 GB. Maybe > SneakerNet? Will find some 'quirky' use! Nifty gadget for old PCs: a bootable IDE device that uses SD cards. I have one, works great. You can get 'em for CF cards too (which natively use the floppy interface) but these are a lot faster. > > KM> Niftiest flash drive: one in the shape of a padlock from Symantec > > KM> (and it's all metal, so it's as heavy as a real lock). You push > > Don't drop it on your toe! I tend to avoid the cutsie devices but that > KM> This has already been done! > > Yup! It's solidly made! Yes, words were said. > > KM> So went looking on eBay to see if it has any particular collector > > KM> value (didn't find any samples) but discovered this actual > > KM> combination lock flash drive: > > Ah! I was thinking the 'traditional' padlock with the curved metal bar > KM> Like mine! > > Oh! They must have changed design: the link displayed one which was long > and narrow and had three or four laterally rotating number rings, and I > don't recall a metal bar latch. Yours (and my original visualization) > is like a typical lock: > -- > / \ > | | > _________ > | | > | | > | | > ------- > Yeah, the bicycle lock type was not what I had in mind. Mine was probably made purely as a novelty; I vaguely recall the source was some security-stuff conference. But the toy arrived WAY later, via snail. > either all all selling around the same price. ...OTOH have seen where > everybody is selling at (say) $45-55 and a couple of vendors selling the > same thing for several hundred dollars. The latter are either moving dark money, or laundering money. You'll also see those 10x-priced units "sell" every so often, then get relisted at the same fantasy price, by the same vendor. Started on eBay about 15-18 years ago, and is now happening on Amazon too. Perfectly legal way to move your drug money or your terrorist funding. And normal people wonder why an old USB cable is listed for $500. >> > > > > Will continue to ground-before-insert just as a good practice > > > > > KM> If only because *I* don't like getting zapped. :) > > > > > So we have found out you're not into that cheap a thrill!! > > > > KM> I am no fun at an electrocution. :P > > > > That comes as no shock! > > > KM> I prefer dynamic to static. > > > AC? DC is more fun! > > KM> Surely you can sing better than that. > > I barely carry a tune in a bucket! > KM> And my bucket leaks. > Why am I thinking "incontinence hotline - can you hold please?" joke?! Can't hold a candle to our brains! > > > KM> And as I respond up above (we are nothing if not redundant!) PSU > > You can say that again! > KM> That again! > Good night, Gracie! Mornin', George! > > KM> gets tested too, when all apart. But board was already suspect, > > KM> just had the wrong suspect in custody. > > "It was my evil twin, honest!" > KM> It was! more evil than we knew. > "Look at meee!" ("Hehe: clown's squirting flower have > nothing on me!") Ow! it got pixels in my eye. > KM> AMD's stock heatsinks are crap -- too small and all aluminum. AMD > KM> CPUs get too hot for anything less than copper core, and > KM> preferably solid copper heatsink. > OK - so they tend to save money where they should not. That too. > KM> I got this for the better AMD: > KM> https://www.amazon.com/Adaptec-Socket-Heat-Sink-ACC-9520/dp/B000HR > KM> PHKE > KM> Works absolutely wonderfully; dropped CPU temp by about 30 > KM> degrees. All copper heatsink, and the fan is nearly silent, too. > > OK, thanks! I'll check to make certain fits mine (FX-8320) and order. > ..PSensor, etc., the CPU temperature did seem to be too hot. And some > runnings sent it over. Ouch. > IIRC this is a AM3+ socket but should get me in the right area. As for > prices, I do check multiple sourcres. :) It should fit AM3+ -- basically the same socket as AM2 which is mine. (In fact some CPUs swing both ways.) This should be a good one too: https://www.amazon.com/AMD-Socket-Copper-Heatpipes-Connector/dp/B0044FHFJQ Copper base and heat pipes, usually a good combination. > > KM> 'em all tested and matched to one another, those AMD boards might > > KM> depart to eBay, not like I'm short and vintage gaming boards are > > KM> all the rage lately. > > If you have the storage room and the time to sell them. OTOH if it > KM> I have the storage; I may not have the patience. > > It would be interesting to see how long some of the items have been > listed on eBay. Some sell right off, some not. Pretty chancy. Probably do better to have a private site and let people searching for something stumble on it. > > (Maybe I should start avoiding AMD -- this computer is AMD but so is the > > one I'm using for MythTV and it's fine.) When they work, no worries. But I've seen too many problems. > KM> I'll take AMDs if they fall on my head, but I won't pay money for > KM> 'em. Seen too many bugs and too many fails, and WAY too much not > KM> near as fast as claimed once you set 'em to doing real work, not > KM> just gamer-suckering benchmarks. (Eg. Westworld's CPU supposedly > KM> is faster than a high-end Core2Quad. In Real Life it's about 40% > KM> slower than a midrange Core2Duo.) And from the donor pile at > KM> AVMUG... about half the AMD-based boards and/or CPUs were DOA. > KM> Few of the Intel-based boards, and NONE of the Intel CPUs were > KM> dead. > > Hmmmmmm!! Seems to verify what I'm typed up there a bit! LIS (I think > -- too lazy to scroll up), it seems AMD is good but Intel is better. AMD is intermittently good... probably when sales fall too much, then we see the catch-me-if-you-can game, which Intel promptly beats them at. But I've no reason to believe AMDs are any less buggy than in the past, when they had 10x the errata that Intels did (at least, when AMD still published errata). > Quite sure there are exceptions (I still refuse to buy Celeron!) but Some late Celerons were pretty good -- and many could be overclocked; someone OC'd one to 5GHz! But you have to get to the era when they used the same bus speed as the Pentium, or their performance kinda sucks. > seems like I ran into less problems with Intel-based stuff. And that > statement is probably somewhat biased as I don't have any Intel-based > boards with IOMMU, or at least I know of. Intel-based boards are, in my observation, better quality, even from the same manufacturer and essentially the same model. > OTTOMH I'd say go with a video card of at least 1 GB if not > 2. Less will cause video tearing, or at least does with MythTV playback > of a HD source. I have no experience with 4K videos, though "Big Buck > Bunny, Sunflower Version" at 4000x4500 seems to be OK here onthis > computer -- may be 'cut back'/throttled by the video card (2GB?) and or > monitor. I'd like a better monitor, but this Samsung hasn't died yet... tho amazingly, it's well past its best-by date. > KM> I've seen the oversized kind, tho... and I have one of the 3rd > KM> party radiator doodads. Got that with a used vidcard that was DOA > KM> (asked for and got half refund on that one, cuz I'd really wanted > KM> the radiator) and have a notion it might be useful for something > KM> other than vidcard. > > Heating your place?! Could do! > > So you going to post to Instructibles.com "How I Built My Own Mac Pro"?! > KM> That's what this site is for > KM> https://www.tonymacx86.com/ > Hmm: someone else thinks like you do?! Apparently > KM> One of the Dells is already a Hackintosh, albeit an older > KM> version, cuz it's whatever-I-had-ready-to-hand. Everything worked > KM> out of the box except the NIC, but I didn't bother installing > KM> kexts (drivers), so... soon discovered that while 8gb was okay, > KM> it's a lot happier with 24gb. Geesh... this is a ten year old > KM> version.... > > New isn't always better. I have used USB NICs temporarily -- I thnik > the last time was when trying to figure out what was wrong before > finding out the one RAM stick was bad. Oh, I use the USB dongle wireless doodads all the time. Some, Windows finds right off, no external driver required. Linux, not so much, tho I gather it's gotten better. > > Yes, I also try to futureproof -- have been burned a few times: need > > some 5¬" floppies? As far as the thumbdrive capacity, it seems 16 GB is > KM> Whoops! No thanks, I still have plenty! > So I suppose you don't need any 3«'s either! Sadly, no. Would you like some 720k crispies?? > > more than enough for what I do. Of course I'm not running a business. > KM> I liked how Techhole (youtube) described what he was doing so > KM> well that I pilfered it for my Borg listing: > KM> "I'm not a production environment, I'm a basement." > Not distracted by the corporate cubicles! This is true! > KM> Kinda irritating when you know it SHOULD work... > > Uh-huh! And worked the other day before the reboot! I half-think > there are a few things where faster isn't better: the faster speed > doesn't allow time for a function to load if another function takes a > split-second longer than normal. Maybe the HDD needed an extra rotation > because something else was being checked while trying to load this other > parameter..... Probably not that, but some instruction that the CPU didn't finish in time. Something in the back of my head is muttering "pipelining bug". > One of the reasons why most of the computers are on UPS (a couple of the > RPi's are not) as is some lighting, plus a few of the plug-in battery- > powered emergency lights: it gets dark when the power goes out at night! How'd that happen? > > > > .. And as the cream sauce said to the asparagus -- Happy Hollandaise! > > KM> That's my tagline! > > Spread the words! :) > KM> Where's the butter knife?? > > Unless it's frozen solid I find a metal one works better! This is true :D Have you seen that guy on Youtube who makes knives from weird stuff, like jello or toilet paper? > > > .. Bad love lines: You set my heart aflame - you give me heartburn. > KM> Definitely something lost in translation. > > A while back I was doing an English to either German or Hungarian letter > to go with a card. The original English was right but the 'retranslate' > (check German/Hungarian back to English) and rather than something like > "it's hot here" the machine translate said something like "he was > roasted in the oven"!! Either an understatement, or an exaggeration þ RNET 2.10U: ILink: Techware BBS þ Hollywood, Ca þ www.techware2k.com --- QScan/PCB v1.20a / 01-0462 * Origin: ILink: CFBBS | cfbbs.no-ip.com | 856-933-7096 (454:1/1) .