Subj : Ubuntu replaces core To : Ky Moffet From : Barry Martin Date : Thu Nov 06 2025 07:42:00 Hi Ky! > > KM> Yeah, obviously. But it wasn't to keep schedule, it was whiney > > KM> brats going "You can't make me!" They've set their hearts on > > KM> swapping out C/C++ for Rust, and when numerous actual programmers > > KM> pointed out the problems with Rust, the whiney brats went "DO IT > > KM> NOW!" and the question of ready or not went out the window. > > Not knowing who the 'whiney brats' are I'd guess they're powerful > > enough to be able to chop heads but as with a lot of leaders don't know > > diddly-squat about how the stuff they're overseeing actually works. IMO > KM> Oh, it's not ignorance.... I'm starting to think it's malice > KM> aforethought. > It almost would seem so: someone (could be a group -- probably is) > forcing through the usage of Rust. Rust itself might not be the problem > but rather the conversion to Rust. (Gee,this almost sounds like X11 and > Wayland!) KM> Exactly. But Wayland was a lot more developed than Rust, and had KM> been test-deployed by major distros for several years already, KM> and doesn't have the licensing issue (see below), and even so KM> there were still disruptions. Based on that wonder if Rust is being tested in a real-life environment like Ubuntu? Doesn't explain the half-working deployment aspect. If the order is to covert to Rust testing it in a different OS could kill that OS off whereas Ubuntu might get wounded. ...LIS a lot of guessing and I have next-to-no clue as to the why's and wherefore's. As for the 'wounding' statement, here Ubuntu 24.04 has problems on a couple of the systems around here. Well, the 'problems' are major enough I could not use those systems. What did I do? Re-install 22.04. KM> The woke loons (which is to say, useful idiots) had hung their KM> star on Rust, and here the non-woke happened to be the ones KM> saying, wait a minute, shouldn't you test this more first?? and KM> the woke loons went YOU CAN'T MAKE ME, and forced the jump. And KM> the more-cynical noted that the licenses are being changed along KM> with the switch from C/C++ to Rust -- from GPL to BSD. Yup: have seen that in various scenarios from the last store manager before I retired to business and manufacturing leaders. KM> Why is that significant? Because the GPL license forces you to KM> share your source code with the world, and the BSD license does KM> not. Which means that should some corporate entity, say, KM> Canonical, wish to hive off source and prevent downstream distros KM> from using it, they can now do so, and NONE of the downstream KM> distros have the paid full-time programmers who could cope with KM> recreating what they no longer get handed to them, so they either KM> switch their base distro to something like Slackware or Arch (and KM> accept being that niche), or they are SOL. What did I say about a KM> commercial motive? Quite possible. Seems like there's a fine line in what's public and what's private. Testing software on the public has advantages of testing tons of hardware and auxiliary utilities combinations. KM> And if you're one of the non-woke who happen to disagree with KM> what's being done, YOU'RE ALL NAZIS and yes a bunch of the above KM> woke loons have trumpeted that in exactly those terms. :: Nazi KM> has become the generic shorthand for "I hate anyone who disagrees KM> with me, and hope they all die in a fire." Fine, no one cares KM> anymore, you overused "racist" until it's a joke. But the bigger KM> problem is that different woke loons take it literally as a cue KM> that "These are the people it's desirable to kill" and that got KM> us the assassination of Charlie Kirk. Well that's gotten into an area away from Rust, but yes, the U.S. people in general seem to have taken their thinking too much to the "my way or highway" direction. KM> [As a KDE user, I now wear a bag over my head.] And I thought the bag was for Trick-r-Treat! KM> So it's no longer just a disagreement over how software should be KM> handled. KM> The more localized question becomes whether this nonsense burns KM> itself out before the whole FOSS world implodes, or is narrowed KM> down to those distros that are really viable if they don't have KM> Ubuntu upstream. I'm thinking there will be a period of narrowing down, then another 'Apple' and 'Microsoft' will appear, taking down the current OS/2, CP/M-86/80, and the cycle shall repeat. As I've said before, I sort of go with the Ubuntu flow because I almost don't know any better. Started with a combination of Microsoft getting expensive and MythTV running on this 'Ubuntu' thing: I should learn at least the basics to make some sense of troubleshooting. ...This looks interesting! I still haven't a clue why X11 and Wayland don't play nice together other than two different ways to get the same result. (My 'Black Box' thinking: stuff in, magic occurs inside the box, desired result comes out. As I troubleshoot and learn the Black Box becomes smaller and multiple boxes.) > KM> projects downstream from both Ubuntu .... Ubuntu being the only > KM> distro that has both jumped on this bandwagon *and* has the > KM> resources to work past the problems Rust will cause.... and is > KM> for all practical purposes Commercial Debian. === > I could see both possibilities. I'm leaning more towards the 'resources > to fix' option as it seems there are a lot of Ubuntu users out there. KM> Users are irrelevant, here. Only matters whether the parent KM> company has the paid programmers to deal with it. And whether it KM> can be sold to enterprise customers. KM> Which is going to be the real sticking point. Selling (profit!) to enterprise is good, but the blindered approach of ignoring the common user may bite them. I'm thinking along the lines a bigwig is going to be impressed by the presentation and ask his subordinate to look into it. Bigwig knows next-to-nothing about the software-OS-firmware-CPU stuff; subordinate knows some. Subordinate had numerous bad experieces as a user. and so submits a bad review. There goes that sale! > Would not be good to annoy a ton of users, but if they could somehow > restrict the annoyance. The 'restict' means something like run KM> Here is what you're missing: ordinary users are not anyone's KM> customers, and no one in the business of selling or supporting KM> major software wants more home users. The real customers are KM> enterprise business, who pay millions for support contracts. KM> Ordinary users are a support cost, not a revenue stream. KM> THIS is why IBM bought Red Hat -- because Red Hat was the 800 KM> pound gorilla in the realm of server support contracts. And KM> recognizing that home users are an expense, and not profitable, KM> Red Hat had already spun off Fedora to get rid of the cost of KM> supporting home users (and incidentally most of the cost of KM> beta-testing their product). Red Hat had shown that they KM> understand where the money is, and is not. I'll guess so: I don't follow that information. (I understand what you wrote, I just don't follow the information in the 'news'.) KM> And Ubuntu has not been "free linux CDs for everyone" in a long KM> time... not since Ubuntu Server became a viable product that has KM> enough business users to be attractive for enterprise support KM> contracts. I'm thinking maybe the "free CD's" was like how an up-and-coming musician will give out free CDs of his music just to get it out there and start building a fan base. AOL did it too: "I wonder what this does? Not going to cost me anything to find out" so stick in the CD/DVD.... > everything under the old/it works way and slowly move (and so test) a > utility. Let's say test Pithos (plays Pandora, the music stream). If > Pithos doesn't work it's going to be quiet here but I can easily get > around the error (access via a browser). The Rust people would know > (how, I don't know -- quite sure there are ways to monitor without > grabbing too much personal data) it didn't work. KM> The big distros and desktops have had automatic error reporting KM> for a long time. And the commercial entities don't care if Joe KM> Blow's PC won't boot. They care if Amazon pays their monthly bill KM> for that big support contract. Again I'm too isolated to know the details. Not disagreeing Big Business isn't running the thing, but thinking us little guys have some subtle say in the direction. > Which is sort of the basis of my Pithos example: start small and > restricted, and probably would be a good idea to start at the beginning, > or at least what is thought to be the beginning -- will find out! If > this test is made to work, great, and go on to the next. If not, well, > only one thing went down and reverse it to get it working and try to > figure out what went wrong. KM> That's how it ought to be done, but when it's become a crusade, KM> all that goes out the window. True: isolated events at the user level probably get ignored as 'noise' but sometimes all those seemingly isolated events have a common source. > Going to give a tangent. One of the TVs here is a Vizio (brand). > Approximately October 30 we couldn't receive local stations: just > 'spinning' (process loader spinner icon). All the other inputs worked > fine. Ended up watching local TV though the MythTV input. (This is > starting to sound like my Pithos example!) Movies and other Internet > accesses worked fine. > October 31 still down, or at least first thing in the morning as didn't > watch live TV the evening because of Halloween. November 1st all working > properly again. > So apparently they did an update, it didn't go quite as expected, maybe > tried a few other options, of which one worked or they rolled back to > what did. KM> This happens now and then.... about a year ago Apple had to roll KM> back a major system update, because it was nuking phones. So the end users still had a hand in the overall direction dictated from the top. > I'm thinking the Rust project could do something similar for live > testing. KM> They COULD, but they WON'T. Because this isn't about the quality KM> of the software. Which might be the start of the collapse. > .. Do electricians listen to AC-DC or something more current? KM> ZAP ZZAPP!! Frank ZAPpa? ZZ Top? ¯ ® ¯ BarryMartin3@MyMetronet.NET ® ¯ ® .... I want to be buried with my old LPs: it will be my vinyl resting place. --- MultiMail/Win32 v0.47 þ wcECHO 4.2 ÷ ILink: The Safe BBS þ Bettendorf, IA þ RNET 2.10U: ILink: Techware BBS þ Hollywood, Ca þ www.techware2k.com --- QScan/PCB v1.20a / 01-0462 * Origin: ILink: CFBBS | cfbbs.no-ip.com (454:1/1) .