Subj : Re: Graphics driver quest To : Barry Martin From : Ky Moffet Date : Thu Sep 18 2025 06:06:00 BARRY MARTIN wrote: > Hi Ky! > > > > (I know: overquoting!) > > KM> That can be fixed! > > KM> *RRRRRRRRRRRRRRPPPPPP* -- sound of rampaging delete key > > Where'd the message go?! > KM> Into the aether, that infinite garbage dump for deleted > KM> characters! > > That explains that big 'BOOM!' I just heard! Nope, that was me taking a header onto the carpet this morning. (Hooked a toe on something in the dark. Gonna have a shiner.) > KM> When it's outdated toolkit, it's likely to affect just one app, > KM> or parts of apps. > > Makes sense. LIS, at first look was just the 'overlay' Terminal/command > line of this Virtual Machine and anything else putting something with > Terminal on top of the main OS's screen. The main OS's Terminal was > unaffected. Which says right there it's not your hardware. > KM> Now, if it's an OpenGL problem, then you might see goofs in games > KM> or higher-end graphics editors. > > So as usual my issues are backwards from the norm! Nah, I've seen this before. Very old Windows programs often assumed a very low resolution, and provided their own window decorations, so on a newer screen they looked awful (all fuzzy and dithered). Basically the same problem in a different suit. > KM> Yeah, that's where it's at now. X11 had been essentially > KM> abandoned for over a decade, and the underpinnings were an ugly > KM> mess, being designed for the era of dumb terminals, and at best > KM> shimmed and jury-rigged for modern OSs. All the X11 devs went off > KM> to Wayland a long time ago (it's the same people, for the most > KM> part). > > I never really paid attention to who was writing - no need to. LIS, my The real story behind Wayland and X | linux.conf.au 2013 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWQh_DmDLKQ It's a fun presentation and pretty much lays out the history. > decision was more based on future 'ease': going to be easier to "go with > the flow" and me to use Wayland than constantly set things back to X11" > eventually nothing new would be using X11 and I'd have to switch to it > anyway. As for the old applications I'm using using X11, either they > stick to the dedicated machines or the application will be updated or > I'll find a new application. ...My general line of thinking for me, not > necesarily the right thing for anyone else. Yeah, somewhere upward of 90% of the linux world has switched over to Wayland. Except for a few specialty uses that haven't yet recompiled to work on Wayland, X11 is dead. And frankly considering the mess X11 is internally -- just as well. It works, but it's a pile of shims upon shims, and there's no future in it for newer hardware. It's become a religious debate right up there with SysV init vs systemd. I don't care one way or the other so long as it works (tho systemd's binary logfiles are stupid). But once Fedora and Ubuntu (and later, Debian) adopted Wayland and systemd, it was all over except for the screaming from minor distros no one ever heard of. Almost everyone is downstream from one of those, and it's too much work to maintain two branches. > KM> There exists the new fork of X11, XLibre, but its dev is, shall > KM> we say, a bit difficult, is not known for quality code, and most > KM> distros refuse to offer it mostly because the dev refused to go > KM> along with their wokeness. FOSS right now is flaming overloaded > KM> with woke crazies (a natural side effect of proliferating "Codes > KM> of Conduct") , and lately they've all come out of the woodwork. > KM> (Don't believe me? Check out the Lunduke Journal on Youtube.) > > I'm half-thinking the XLibre code might not be all that great because > the good X11 developers went to Wayland, leaving the not-so-great > developers. ...We all had to learn, but I'm thinking the new/younger Leaving exactly ONE developer (not actually part of the X11 team), who'd been submitting numerous patches for years but none of them were merged. Whether it was poor code or bad attitude (or, reportedly, both) is open to debate, but bottom line is the maintainers just weren't interested in going back to X11 (which had been a dead end for about 10 years already), let alone testing someone else's code, and the merges never happened.. Then the ONE dev forked it, and made enough of a stir that the old devs said enough of this crap and nuked the repository. But that's why now there's XLibre for anyone who still needs X11, with at least some nod toward being maintained. I expect eventually the handful of distros still using X11 will slide over to XLibre, just because there is nowhere else to go if they can't or won't use Wayland (and same for systemd). But it's kinda painting themselves into a dead end. When the whole ecosystem goes that way, you either go along or become niche and eventually unmaintainable. > > KM> Everything had to be recompiled for Wayland, and some programs > > KM> still haven't been, and may misbehave in new and different ways, > > KM> and different ways again if you have an NVidia graphics card. > > Right. In the past I have read comments where the author/maintainers of > > certain utilies will not update to current just because of what boils > > down to too much work. So great 32-bit utilities - bye-bye. :( Now > KM> Yeah. The problem is that there just aren't enough competent warm > KM> bodies to maintain both 32bit and 64bit versions of everything. > KM> For several years KDE had the Binary Factory doing that > KM> automagically (as well as MacOS and iOS versions, when they would > KM> compile) but that got shut down a couple years ago. I think it's > KM> over at GitLab now but it doesn't do the automatic attempted > KM> compile anymore. > > Probably concerns/issues over copyrighted material. No, this is all KDE code. Compilers can be set to include libraries for various targets (with software that can be designed that way, it's just a compiler flag). KDE apps are mostly designed to compile for both linux and Windows, and that has nothing to do with copyright. (I expect they are using mostly the GCC compiler, which is GPL'd. No proprietary code.) The Binary Factory was handy because if I wanted a Windows version of some KDE app, I could just check there and if there'd been a successful compile, it was available to download. > > X11-utilities -- give one last hug. ...I'd guess a way to run X11 will > > be created, similar to the concept of WINE. ..."BEER"? Barry's Eyeball > > Emulator Rewinder?? > KM> Xwayland. > > They stole my idea! And your beer!! > KM> Yeah, probably a pointless exercise. Might go away with the next > KM> update, or maybe you should screencap and bug report it? > > Almost too much work when I don't need the faster refresh. And And if it's the old-toolkit problem, no one is going to fix it anyway, or the toollkit would already be updated. > troubleshooting could be expensive: the second monitor (here on the > wall) is identified as Monitor #1), is either DP or DVI and only goes up > to 60 Hz. And my CPU is integrated to no video daughtercard. ...I've Do you mean you have integrated graphics? > got almost a half-dozen variables right there! And inmates running the asylum! http://www.the-sandpit.com/inmates2.gif > Oh, here's a good one, tangential to your KVM. On my MythTV Backend and > NAS (two separate computers) I have little 4" monitors plugged in: yes, > teeny-tiny and barely see anything but the idea is for me to be able to > glance at the screens and see if there's a new block indicating an > update or something else. Remotely log in to see. > > Anyway, the monitors have composite video in so HDMI2AV adapter. One > adapter needed external power to work, the other didn't so didn't. > Worked fine until one day the monitor started to cycle-flicker > indicating video signal, no video signal. Test, swapping in the other > computer's HDMI2AV, which required power. Monitor works, so bad adapter > -- into the electorinc recycle. Had a spare HDMI2AV so put that in. > > Few days later dawned on me: waitaminute - the other two HDMI2AV needed > external power to work, maybe for some reason this one (the original) > 'suddenly' needs external power too?? I haven't changed anything > but.... Pull old unit, connect with external power: now magically > works and has so for weeks! Ah. Marginal power, aging a bit and got to where it couldn't QUITE power the device. This is pretty common with low-spec power supplies. So might be your adapter is fine too, just wasn't getting enough juice. > KM> Tho last night out of the blue Zombie came awake for no reason. > KM> WTF. > > So what do you expect from a Zombie? (Probably getting ready for > Halloween!) Exchange on a writers forum: === Someone who just discovered: Cheap trick: if you can put "by zombies" after the verb, it's passive voice. Someone else having a fit of perversity: He wandered by zombies on his way to work. She skated by zombies frozen in the lake. Me: The eBay version: I mean by zombies people who are for parts or not working. === > > .. The word 'nun' is just the letter "n" doing a cartwheel. > KM> This explains the Flying Nun. > > There's an explanation for Sister Bertrille? (Think that was her name > -- I recall the show but not watching it. May have been doing homework > when it was on.) > Were we once young enough to do homework? :D þ RNET 2.10U: ILink: Techware BBS þ Hollywood, Ca þ www.techware2k.com --- QScan/PCB v1.20a / 01-0462 * Origin: ILink: CFBBS | cfbbs.no-ip.com (454:1/1) .