Subj : USB lock up - poo! Fo To : Ky Moffet From : Barry Martin Date : Fri Feb 25 2022 10:14:00 Hi Ky! > > > > Follow-up to the message I wrote this morning. > > > KM> You followin' me? :D > > > Out of morbid curiosity! > > KM> I'll be sure to leave a trail of dead bodies so you get your > > KM> money's worth. > > We talking human or animal? > KM> Bugs. > Computer or insect?! KM> Uh, I can't tell, they're squished flat. Should I have 3D printed KM> 'em?? Possibly: if insects when 3D printing could have saved for Halloween. If the computer kind then the 3D bug printing would not have come out correctly -- and maybe still use for Halloween: insects with giant heads. Or the Kardashian version: insects with giant bottoms!! > > The FX-8320 here likes to run about ten degree warmer but that could be > > due to a lot of other factors like rated 125 W for starters. Nowhere > > near the thermal cut-off point. > KM> Which is generally 80C for older CPUs, 100C for more-modern CPUs. > Still seems 'funny' to have a CPU running up to the boiling point of > water! ...Remember the old job about using the CD tray as a cup holder? > Too bad can't run the CPU heat out and use to keep our coffee/tea warm! KM> LOL yeah... tho I knew someone who had a K6-2 era AMD and used it KM> to heat their garage! Gaa! Nothing running that hot up here! > Yup: that's the way my tower fan attached: line up Part I, then line up > Part 2 by fiddling with the bracket to fit into the mounting holes of > Part 1. ...Actually not too bad, though I found it easier to see what > was supposed to be done from a YouTube video as opposed to the printed > instructions. KM> Some are easier than others. I have an old Zalman that I never KM> did figure out how to mount (not that it was likely a good idea KM> anyway, being very topheavy). But the complicated-looking tower KM> with the complicated instructions just sat in place and fit KM> instantly. That was a pleasant surprise! > Covering up hot stuff is generally a good idea, though if using that > cooling fan to try to cool other stuff maybe not such a good idea. The > shroud I had housing the dust buffalos apparently was there to help > direct the hot air towards the rear panel. KM> Actually, it was a barn. > KM> Yeah, and now two types of core, one for performance, one for > KM> slow. > Yes: took me a while to figure that one out: "12 core (8p, 4e)". OK, > eight an' four iz twelve, but the 'p' and 'e' didn't have a meaning for > a while. Did finally see spelt out or otherwise defined: performance > and efficiency. ...Then there are the ones that have a sharing... Good > Grief!! KM> That when I fling up my hands and go "Fine, just so long as it's KM> faster than what I had." That's pretty my thought too: if I'm going to sepnd all this money and time to create the new system I want it to do it's thing noticeably faster. Or for something like a new video card be sharper/clearer/more detailed. > KM> Yeah, mine get parts kicked downhill as available too. Then find > KM> some job and take a long time to finally retire to the Closet. > > I finally did some sorting out of Parts I'll Probably Never Use. An AGP > video card went in that box! Not sure if even worth attempting to list > on eBay. Some time back had randomly checked prices of stuff in that > box - almost more bother than worth, plus how long have those listings > been up? KM> Older parts are in some demand for retro gaming, and AGP are KM> ideal for the very desirable 440BX chipset. Given the state of KM> things, I certainly wouldn't trash any that still work, and if KM> someone does need one... they ain't makin' any more of 'em. Hmm: better recheck those boxes in the basement! > > The computers being rolled down a level probably will get a bit of an > > upgrade in the process: just adding a SSD for the OS partition really > > speeds up otherwise slow computers! > KM> Yeah, it does wonders for that. Six times the data flow. > Definitely a faster boot; didn't notice any performance change as far as > MythTV was concerned. The old/slow computers are pretty much designed KM> That's because once the system is fast enough to decode the KM> video, bus speed is the limiting factor -- BUT even old slow IDE KM> more than suffices for the speed that data is read for video KM> playback, at least til you get into many-GB files and very high KM> definition. The average 4GB HD movie file is no problem. Sort of on the same topic I found the Raspberry Pi 3 (or maybe it was a 3B) was fine as a MythTV Frontend, so processing 1080p video. The problem was with how it was connected to the network: if WiFi highly jittered, if Ethernet, smooth. > to be used as MythTV Frontends only, though have the capability of a > full Ubuntu system. Not going to be writing letters in the Ironing > Room. Might look up something on the Web. Watch a show while doing > laundry? Sure! KM> You have an Ironing Room??!!! that's even more retro than my KM> Closet! Just wait unil you read this message and see several paragraphs up the Sitting Room! KM> (I own an iron. It has never been out of the box. I don't know KM> where it is.) The iron is in the box, silly! > KM> Woah... used to have a couple of vintage fans like that, but got > KM> lost in the Great Northward Migration. High power, noisy, but > KM> dang could they move the air. > Yup! Here now just used for pink noise while sleeping. KM> You can download every sort of color-noise nowadays, and just run KM> it through an MP3 player. Advantage being you can tune it for KM> pitch and volume a lot easier than a real fan. Downside is it KM> lacks the motor harmonics. I sort of forget about that. To me the speakers in most electronic devices are too tinny (gee, I wonder why!); I use wired ear buds just because have but mainly because I haven't used all that much so not worth the expense to go wireless. Here in the Computer Room the sound system is from the analog output of the computer, into a Teac amp, powering Jensen bookshelf speakers. Use the monitor speakers - . I do have a cheap USB speaker set I use mainly for testing; I suppose decent new ones would be OK. > I haven't either. More "bigger tends to be quieter". When purchasing > is more "that's a decent price" along with brand, type of sleeve/bearing > thing, and dB. KM> Sleeve bearing: where's the owl? :) Really. > > KM> So... need to find quieter. But not $20 each . > > Probably not!! I've saved some money buy buying more (multi-packs). > KM> Next time you see a good deal, let me know! > Will do! ...Wanna share that 161 minimum order?! anyone else is reading through this> KM> Sure! I can use a couple dozen. Shodding your dogs too?! > > Having an extra 120mm fan on hand is good: you're almost certainly going > > to use it, plus have it now vs waiting to be shipped, plus possibly save > > on shipping. > KM> Yeah. I have some salvaged from power supplies, but would have to > KM> rewire 'em. > I've got some power supplies needing to have the replaced -- mostly the > 80 mm fan but maybe a 120. Generally the failed PSUs have also been > smaller output power so almost better to replace the power supply with > one of higher wattage. KM> I've replaced PSU fans often enough, but there I don't bother KM> with the wiring or plugs (they're often weird or hardwired), I KM> just use a fan with a molex, run the wires out the back along KM> with the other wires, and plug it into one of the loose power KM> connectors. It looks like mobius PSU, but works fine. Yes, LIS I have a PSU with a failed fan; attached one to the outside, plugged the new pan into the appropriate connector and it's happy. My previous main computer had a PSU fan fail. Did replace and upgrade the PSU but in the mean time hung a fan on the back panel to provide cooling. Ran the wires through where the side cover attaches. (Now know I probably could have left that cover off without problems.) KM> Reverse, tho, cannibalized PSU fans usually don't have the right KM> plug for anything, or no plug at all, but no worries, if the PSU KM> is dead I don't feel bad cutting off a molex and wiring it to the KM> fan. I've kept spare parts for years: disassembled a few dead TVs, etc., for the parts for my hobbyist electronics. Also 'back then' could build some of your own computer cards so I'd need the connections, etc. > > issues, improper air flow, etc. The good news is the open side is > KM> I've found the airflow thing is mostly a myth. They talk a good > KM> line but when temperature is much lower with MY airflow than with > KM> THEIR airflow, and I see that over and over... well, I stopped > KM> worrying about it. > Pretty much good enough for me! I can sort of visualize having a > contained box could cause better air flow as 'force' the air to come in > form this point and be direct out that point. OTOH also seems there KM> That's the theory, but in practice I find it doesn't work for KM> bleep. Same with the shrouds on some vidcards -- yeah, it directs KM> the air around the heatsink, but it also prevents heat from KM> escaping the area. The ones I've checked have all run cooler KM> minus the shroud. We have gooid news and we have bad news! To me it sort of makes sense to blow the air in the direction it should go (like towards the back panel), but then with the proper chassis fan it should go that way anyway. ...Vaguely recall having a computer with the shroud ending at the rear panel and so no chassis ventilation except that provided by the fan in the PSU. Pretty sure I added a chassis fan! > could be a quiet pool of air at the bottom. One computer with a tall KM> Which doesn't matter, because there's nothing at the bottom that KM> cares about heat; in fact it's usually just empty space. I've had/got systems with video cards, NICs, modem cards (!), extra USB ports, etc., down there. > tower case may or may not have had that problem: video card was at the > bottom, PSU and fan at the top. I don't recall where the front panel > venting was. Anyway, for some reason I started getting concerned about KM> It's generally at the bottom, but usually is so small it's KM> worthless. I recall one of our old ILinkers mentioned he'd stick KM> a screwdriver in there and crank it bigger, and since it was KM> hidden no one could see that the hole was now big enough to KM> notice. What's that whistling? Oh, the air through that teeny hole! KM> The video card should not be at the bottom anyway. It should be KM> in the slot nearest the CPU, and on some PCIe boards that is the KM> only slot that's full speed. Now you tell me!! Over the years some of my positioning was based on cable/port location -- get fingers in there to tighten/loosen (BNC [told you it goes back a while!!], coax connectors for tuner cards, etc.) And of course some was "the bottom slot's free: here's your new home!". KM> Other cards generally don't get hot enough to be a problem. NVMes KM> run relatively hot, and even tho mine are on adapter cards (one KM> next to the vidcard, one in bottom slot, cuz that's where the 16x KM> slots are) even if you stick your hand in there you can't feel KM> any hot spot. Ambient air suffices, and I'd guess since they're KM> not up against the mainboard, does more to cool 'em than would a KM> heatsink. I've rigged up small fans just to be sure air is moving between/around daughter cards. > a broken mount, Velcroed it to the bottom of the case to blow up. (Was > he kind of fan with intake from the side.) KM> Yeah, I've attached fans however the hell like that. Wedgie has KM> one hanging from one screw off to the side of the HD cage, cuz KM> the HD needed extra cooling (MFM campstove) and that was the one KM> spot where I could secure it with anything. Gremlin has one KM> hanging off the back of the case with three screws, a rubber KM> shim, and a twisty-tie, cuz that's where it fit. We won't win any of those best-looking awards! I had the fan for the 486DX2/66 semi-hanging, supported from further sliding by a little 'table' I rigged up from an insulator, a right-angle bracket, and whatever hardware needed to it all in place. The heatsink assembly was held to the CPU with plastic clips and one broke (dried out, stress), so was just held on with thermal compound KM> Gremlin has a very early ATX case, mainboard that was designed KM> for AT but swings both ways, and who the hell designed this case KM> anyway?? Some minor surgery with tin snips later, it was a KM> perfect fit. Just don't look too close. :) Or get the hand too close ==> snag, rip, squirt! > KM> So I ditched their stupid shroud, replaced the thoroughly useless > KM> fanless heatsink with a proper if generic heatsink-with-fan, > KM> added an intake fan, and its CPU temperature dropped 40F degrees. > KM> Yes, FORTY DEGREES. > KM> And it never crashed again (at least not until the capacitors > KM> failed). > Take that designers! I'm sort of the opinion there are times when the > college-degreed designers know more than I do, but I'm also of the > opinion there are times when they're stuck because that's the way they > learned it. Your fan substitution is on example. (And besides, someone > has to invent or discover stuff -- may as well be me!) KM> Yeah, all I could figure is that they never compared it to KM> standard setups, only to Dell-with-NO-cooling setups. 250 degrees KM> with no cooling, 170 degrees with our fancy cooling, fantastic KM> progress!! KM> ...standard cooling like every clone PC in the world, 130 KM> degrees... Maybe they figure if the CPU eventually overheats it will throttle, the user will think "worn out, need a new one" ==> profit for the manufacturer! > KM> Same with leaving the side panels off. Then you don't need to > KM> worry about evacuating the hot air; it leaves all by itself. > KM> Same reason I like to have a top vent, to let it escape. > Heat rises! KM> Yep, in fact top vent makes for pretty good passive circulation KM> all by itself. There's a pretty good warm breeze coming out of KM> Moonbase. LIS a message or three ago this computer has a 120 mm fan sitting on top. There is another 120 mm fan inside, right next to it (the customary side-by-side mounting option). When building I did install the one fan -- as you said, heat rises. Don't recall what made me try the second fan but with it did notice the CPU temperature monitoring lowered. OK, next time inside permanently install the fan (right now powered via 12vDC adapter). With the Southbridge issue replacing the whole thing so no real need to install the outside fan until play with whatever this box becomes. > KM> I'd leave the open side a fingerwidth away from the side of the > KM> cabinet, to let more hot air escape. > That's pretty much what I'm doing with "BE4" here (the 4th version of > the MythTV Backend). Plus some of the spacing is because that's the > width of the side panel cover I'm storing next to unit so it doesn't get > lost. KM> Sounds like standard procedure to me. BC (Before COVID) I had done a bit of clean-up, getting rid of several under-powered computers. (Was considering donating them to a school's Computer Club or something.) Did find a side panel I had no idea what it went to! > KM> Well, given it's where you can't stick your foot into it, I'd > KM> just leave enough room for circulation and not worry about it. > OK; probably was going to end up that way anyway. KM> Poor Argo ran laying on a table for about a year before I got KM> around to putting it IN a case at all!! I would like to have one KM> of the workbench doohickeys like Phil's Computer Lab uses for his KM> temporary builds; looks quite convenient. But when I looked, were KM> expensive! Yup!! Sometimes would be nice to know if this card would work better, or is the PSU underpowered and that's causing (issue)..... > KM> Bullet ran with both sides off for years; only reason they're on > KM> now is cuz it's not running due to Rearranging Of Hardware. > KM> Bullet's southbridge likes to run at 220F, so the less between it > KM> and the open air, the better. > I might figure a way to blow air across it. Attach an old CPU fan > (~40mm -- whatever the sizing is - going by memory) to an L-bracket > attached to the drive bay case or some place sturdy/convenient. KM> Yeah, Bullet's side panel fan was hooked up and blowing across KM> stuff, even tho the panel was not attached. "Why is there a KM> washcloth over the top of that loose side panel?" To stop KM> vibration where it leans against the desk. I miss the steel cases! Ugh! No I don't!! > KM> Got a copper heatsink for that but so far have not quite figured > KM> out how to make it fit... might need a different one. > My fan idea might be easier than metalworking! KM> Beat ya to it Why am I visualizing a blacksmith at the anvil?! ¯ BarryMartin3@ ® ¯ @MyMetronet.NET ® .... Computer once beat me at chess; it was no match for me at kick boxing. --- MultiMail/Win32 v0.47 þ wcECHO 4.2 ÷ ILink: The Safe BBS þ Bettendorf, IA --- QScan/PCB v1.20a / 01-0462 * Origin: ILink: CFBBS | cfbbs.no-ip.com | 856-933-7096 (454:1/1) .