Subj : USB lock up - poo! To : Ky Moffet From : Barry Martin Date : Mon Feb 21 2022 11:21:00 Hi Ky! > > I was sort of hoping to use that trend: eBay did have a few listings for > > used i5-12600K's but IMO not enough savings over a brand new one. > KM> Yeah, Worst Buy has 'em for $279, best used price is $269, why > KM> bother. Still too new and a starved chip market. > IMO when selling used stuff like electronic parts one is going to take a > hit, especially if it's otherwise relatively available. I don't expect > a give-away, but not going to pay near full price. KM> Used to be a fair used price was half of current wholesale. What KM> with the chip shortage, now it's 80% of current retail, so KM> there's not near as much incentive to hunt up used components. KM> For a mere 20% difference I'll buy new and get a warranty. Right: some devices essentially don't wear out so an old is just as good as brand new. Paying $100 for a new CPU vs. paying $50 for used -- works for me! Paying $80 for a used CPU.... unless rare I'll spring the extra $20. On eBay some of the used CPUs were going for more than sale price of the new! And just to counter-balance, I did end up buying the CPU via eBay: their eBay store shop's price was a dollar less than buying from their website directly (which was the same as lowest price on Amazon). So I saved a dollar!! KM> And we won't even discuss the price of used motherboards... I haven't purchased a used motherboard in ages: have been trickling down my own. > > I remember you telling me that back when I was having problems. And LIS > > (probably repeating from what's going to come up in the quoteback below) > > is AMD is damaging their reputation by recommending much less combo- > KM> AMD markets to gamers, and occasionally to HP for budget PCs. AMD > KM> is not concerned about reputation; HP will require their own spec > KM> be met, and gamers will always go buy the biggest cooler they can > KM> find because they get a thrill from overclocking. So AMD figures > KM> no point in splurging on the cooler. Intel customers are more > KM> likely to leave things stock, so best have an acceptable cooler. > Makes sense, but still not quite. You're explaining it so I > understand the situation, it's the situation that's not quite making > sense. Of course I'm looking at it from the non-gamer viewpoint, plus a > bit of the Scottish no-waste one. KM> It makes sense if you're a bean-counter in the marketing KM> department, who knows his market, and relies on gamers' bragging KM> for free advertising. Probably so -- again different vantage points. The bean-counter comment did remind me of when I bought a motherboard package years ago. Decent MB specs, came with CPU and cooler, RAM. etc. I don't recall what it was but something didn't quite match up correctly - whatever it was something minor and I just substituted. Was something a person only working with the numbers would have overlooked. KM> It looks like insanity to we who expect things to work as-is out KM> of the box without having to hunt up a bunch of pricey KM> modifications. Probably my basis for expecting the "AMD approved" CPU fan to properly cool when I don't overclock, don't make the CPU do excessive woro, I have proper air circulation, etc. KM> Seriously, for the effort gamers put into overclocking and KM> concomitant extra cooling, they could just buy a faster CPU to KM> start with. But some of it is the challenge and having bragging KM> rights. Gamers were all green with envy when someone took a lowly KM> 3GHz Celeron and overclocked it to 5.5GHz! (They practically had KM> to give it its own refrigeration unit, and it wasn't good for KM> much, but hey, it worked!) It didn't do much, but it did it quickly!! KM> Actually, IIRC it was immersed in oil with a cooling pump. And I KM> was like.. for that much mess I can buy a faster CPU. But no KM> challenge in that! OK, that aspect I'd probably have a gaping mouth: electronics and liquids generally don't mix, so seeing a computer taking a bath would give a bit of that wow factor. ....Didn't the cooling fans have a hard time rotating in the oil? > > packing inadequate coolers. IMO if they cheat on the cooler to the > > point of not working what are they cheating on in the CPU? > KM> There is that. If you test only with gaming benchmarks, they'll > KM> shine. If you test more realworld work, not so much. > And that might be another problem I have: look at the pretty graphs, > will say "higher is better" or "lower is better"; the graphs don't break > down this benchmark is better for what. KM> Yeah, that's why I don't put too much stock in benchmarks that KM> use only games to crank the numbers. I used the comparison charts to try to do a final verification it wasn't worth the extra money for the i7 over the i5 for my usage. Overall the i7 was slightly better -- very slightly -- but IMO not worth the extra money (which I effectively spent on additional RAM). KM> CPU-Z has a built-in benchmarker now, which I find is good KM> enough. I expect all it does is run the CPU against some KM> repetitive calculation. Mostly all I want to do is compare my own KM> against each other, and if I'm shopping for parts, against the KM> cost of higher or lower performance. I don't need to know the KM> frames-per-second in the latest fancy-graphics game. KM> Passmark's stats are usually good enough for the purpose, too. KM> Like yesterday, decided I still need to find Silver a better KM> vidcard. How about this one? card that's in it gets a Passmark KM> rating of 200; one I'm looking at, 1100. That's significant, and KM> the feature set is close enough, so for the relatively small KM> price, let's try it. Yeah, so it's bottom end compared to the new KM> cards that score 11,000. The rest of the hardware isn't up to KM> that, and I can't justify a $1200 vidcard!!! Nor can I!! I'll look to see what the high-end options offer: sometimes learn about stuff I didn't know existed or forgot existed. (Two monitors became handy somewhat recently -- up until then didn't really care if a video card could handle more than one.) ...High resolution? Well, I think some of the TVs here can handle 4K; monitors don't. SO I'm not going to pay for 4K much less 8K capability, though maybe if a little bit more I might on the theory if can do 4K it will have no problems doing 1080. > > And yes, did clean out a few dust bunnies in the attempt to find why the > > overheating. > KM> Haven't found dust bunnies actually do that much harm. > Several years back I had a refurbished computer that started making odd > noises or something -- forgot exactly what but apparently fan noises. > Open up, clean out a few minor dust bunnies. One of the fans didn't > seem right. Look with a flashlight: dust bunny build-up in the hood. > Pull out with tweezer: big chunk. Pull out more. And more. And more!! > I don't think all that was from here. Did get rid of the fan noise! KM> Those aren't dust bunnies, they're dust buffaloes!! Really! Apparently the lack of proper cooling was causing the CPU to throttle some as after the surgical removal it seemed to run better. Not to mention quieter: no dust buffaloes drumming on the fan blades! KM> Worst I've seen... client had PC sitting in front of a window, in KM> a dusty part of the desert, for a Long Time. I used a trowel to KM> clean out the dirt, which had completely covered the lower slots. KM> Bloody wonder it still worked. Ouch! > I've gone to the fanless video cards if I need a card. Over the years KM> I prefer fanless, but the option isn't always there. Probably true: I haven't checked lately. KM> What vidcard does your New! Improved!! system get?? None: it's integrated. Which is sort of funny as the 'old rule' was to avoid integrated graphics as stole from the system's memory. ...So to answer the question, whatever graphics provided by the i5-12600K via the HDMI and DisplayPort. Might have to get a DP-to-DVI adapter for the second monitor. Not sure what I have in the adapters box. Also considering plugging the new computer's 2nd monitor (DisplayPort) into the HDMI Switch everybody else is using. Advantage might be not having to switch the monitor back to HDMI when a test/other computer is rebooting or otherwise looses the connection for a half-second or so. > the fans have clogged and therefore stopped cooling; the good news is > either didn't need the card or I had adequate circulation so the card's > fan was redundant. Don't do gaming, so my results may not hold. Also > don't do overclocking. KM> Yeah, that. Fans on vidcards have finally improved, but then you KM> get into helicopters, and I don't want the noise. But the little KM> fans like to die, and those with fans are not designed to do KM> without. So.. if possible, fanless. But no objection to a passive KM> radiator (heat pipes) -- which will always work, no bloody fan KM> involved. Yes, that noise factor is a relatively frequent topic coming up in the MythTV Forum. Fanless video cards are somewhat recommended for that reason. OTOH have the PSU fan, the CPU fan.... Everybody around here is resonably quiet, though I get suspicious if things are too quiet! KM> Bullet's vidcard has a replaceable fan (many are not) but those KM> one-inch fans have a lifespan of about two minutes, and then they KM> rattle madly or worse, stop turning but the motor is still KM> running so get HOT. Finally removed it entirely and let the side KM> case fan do the job, since it blows almost directly onto the KM> vidcard. It seems no worse off. Yes: I know at least one of the built-in fans for the video card around here has stopped; most don't seem to be replaceable. Dumb! But then one generally can't replace the fan in a PSU either. ( I do have a PSU which was fixed by attaching a 120mm fan to the outside!) And yes, I do wonder how much heat is created by the locked motor. Have some old Muffin fans here (taken out of service in mainframes in the early 70's) -- when they lock up they do get rather hot! IIRC rated 14 W. ¯ BarryMartin3@ ® ¯ @MyMetronet.NET ® .... Meditation is not what you think. --- MultiMail/Win32 v0.47 þ wcECHO 4.2 ÷ ILink: The Safe BBS þ Bettendorf, IA --- QScan/PCB v1.20a / 01-0462 * Origin: ILink: CFBBS | cfbbs.no-ip.com | 856-933-7096 (454:1/1) .