Subj : USB locking up To : Ky Moffet From : Barry Martin Date : Fri Sep 18 2020 14:06:00 Hi Ky! > > > > Sure; remember when you had amnesia?! > > > KM> Is that what I forgot?? > > > We don't recall now... > > KM> Wait, now we both have amnesia? > > Maybe - what do we compare it to? > KM> Why are you asking *me*??! > You were handy. :) KM> But I'm way over here! Physically -- who knows where your mind is!! KM> [BIOS report] > KM> Did you watch if it changed significantly under load? > Uh, no. Never really occured to me! ...So far just verified without a > change in load the voltage didn't alter significantly, which correlates > 100% with the system doesn't lock up as long as no new USB device is > plugged in! KM> D'oh!! There are those times when the simple and obvious is overlooked! Did find the comand 'watch sensors' which will rerun the sensors command every two seconds, Essentially overlays the new data as I don't see a scroll; at first I didn't think it was working as nothing changed, then I noticed the fan speed changed. What's a little bit better is 'watch -n 1 -d sensors'. This one updates every second and the differences are highlighted. Played a bit with a thumbrive last night: no lockups and no voltage spikes/dips ... caught! One second is an awfully long time! Don't know if can change the time to less than a second, plus need to log. Will continue fiddling with that later. > KM> Oh, no, mine that has the bad Southbridge is an Asus P5B Deluxe > KM> (2008). So far Silver's new board (2014) has, knock wood, no > KM> issues. But bad southbridge does seem to be kind of an Asus > KM> thing... hopefully yours doesn't predict mine's future. > Wonder if the Asus engineers used basically the same circuit design over > the years -- it works, why change? Or went with cheaper components -- a > half cent adds up after not too long! KM> Sounds like it, actually. Similar problems reported across about KM> a ten year span (went I went looking, found it was a KM> broadly-distributed complaint). Hmmm: one would think after that length of time.... Could see if was like the bad filter cap issue. KM> First Asus-vs-USB I've any experience of was in Double Vision, an KM> Asus A8N-SLI (2006; AMD socket939). Supposedly USB2, but during KM> boot it can only do USB1. Eventually USB stopped working KM> entirely. (Thinking numerous semi-random options, trouble is I don't know enough on how the electronics works. Up until a day or two ago it sounded like a good work-around to stick in a PCI(e) USB card to bypass.) KM> That's the one with the Athlon 64 3200+ 2.2GHz ... supposedly a KM> 64bit CPU, but has AMD's not-true-64bit bug. (At least they're KM> consistent; I remember when the K6-2 had a not-true-32bit bug. KM> Known issue and they shipped 'em anyway.) Having got the KM> attention of the retro-gaming crowd, Socket939 CPUs are still KM> quite expensive to upgrade, so since this system was rapidly KM> superceded by newer and better, I never did... and just as well, KM> because guess what -- it's recently blown several capacitors. KM> Anyone care to guess whether they're associated with the KM> southbridge chip?? Oo! Oo! Oo! Pick me! Pick meeee! KM> Ya know, there might be a reason why I kinda prefer MSI boards... KM> beyond their feature set. But weren't any in the price range at KM> the time... and Silver's new board at least was from the higher KM> end of things... well, hopefully it'll be lucky, and outlast its KM> poor relations. With the USB issue part of me is thinking 'dump the Asus board' on this computer and then the Scottish Guy in me says the board is perfectly good except for that Southbridge issue. Worthwhile as an NAS? Seems to be fine as long as don't touch USB, and even then if plug in a USB device and it does lock up seems to be fine on reboot (the USB device is connected at boot). OTOH talk abouit overkill: eight core CPU. And could swap for a single core but AMD and the new mothboard would want Intel. > KM> And I think the other P5B is starting to go, as I'm getting that > KM> popping "device plugged/unplugged" sound once in a while... > KM> another early symptom. :( > That's one thing I haven't heard: the popping noise. Something from the > board/BIOS Beep Speaker (piezo) or audio speakers or ...?? I was > initially thinking the capacitor was leaking and popped. KM> No, this is the Windows device found/not-found sound. the little KM> POP sound it does when a device fails to register properly, or KM> unplugs itself. OK, that makes more sense. Haven't played with Windows for some time so loosing familiarity with it. Plus Ubuntu not making any noises (though the one downstairs sometimes does). > > KM> Yours: > > KM> https://www.asus.com/us/Motherboards/M5A97_R20/overview/ > > KM> Mine: > > KM> https://www.asus.com/us/Motherboards/P9X79_LE/overview/ > > Should have read ahead (on the Intel guess). > KM> We do NOT *buy* AMD. > I should not have bought AMD! Was an old rule of mine, don't recall > when I decided to try. KM> Ooops. :) I got cured of paying for AMD over 20 years ago (see KM> the aforementioned K6-2 debacle; this was the socket7 era!) and KM> have seen no reason to regret that decision. Quite the KM> contrary... Have been seeing all manner of complaints about Ryzen KM> CPUs, nothing consistent but kinda looks like rushed-to-market. KM> Wait a year and buy the equivalent Intel CPU (after the price KM> comes down) and be happy for years instead. Yes, LIS in another message, I've had other AMD computers around here but they were all 'minor players': primary role as Frontend to the MythTV system and do essentially dedicated. Something USB plugged in -- rare. Plus the Linux community seemed to have 'accepted' AMD, or at least to the point would install. Didn't really cover any USB issues, which is more a fault of the hardware and not OS nor software. > > Sort of got excited when scanned through the overview and came across > > "check your PC in real time". I'm in "monitor the voltages" mode so > > interpreting that as seeing the voltages, temperatures, etc.; probably > > is more like VNC or Remote Desktop. KM> Wait, tell me about VNC? Once upon a time... VNC (www.realvnc.com) will remotely view and control another computer. For instance, I have a Raspberry Pi stuck behind a TV I use as a Frontend (MythTV) but without keyboard or mouse attached, only use the TV's remote for a few basic functions. Any keyboarding it's easier for me to be up here in the Computer Room and connect to the RPi via VNC, Can do updates, reboot (and will reconnect unless drastically change something). ...Have gone into the RPi's MythTV from up here to add/update/check on a TV programme even though the MythTV Backend computer is about ten feet behind me(!) - just easier to access that way. Don't want to watch a programme via VNC: significant buffering. Could be due to the RPi being WiFi, insufficient CPU/GPU settings, something. I don't intend to watch TV that way. OTOH I have seen similar buffering on video conferencing so not unique to me. > KM> I don't know what can monitor voltage from within linux. > Installing 'lm-sensors' then running 'sensors' or 'watch sensors' at > Terminal. "watch sensors" wil update every two seconds. Powewr seems > rock-stable: > +12v +12.05v > + 5v + 5.01v (though as I typed that saw it dip to 4.99 for > one display cycle) KM> What you don't want to see is dips and spikes for no reason... Right. Without any hardware changes (add/remove thumbdrive) the voltages seem to be stable. Like I indicated above have gone to updating once a second and the voltages appear to be stable. Worst seem to be the 5v bus dipping to 4.99 volts. Doubt if would even notice if that was being reported by an analog meter on the 10 Volt scale! > Then I noticed something: Vcore: +1.27v (min = +2.98 v, max = +2.23 > v). Waitaminute: the minimum is more than the maximum! (No, that > wasn't a typo.) Chart's got a couple of other references backwards for > the GPU and CPU. KM> Whoops... Whoops onthe minimum being higher than the maximum or the reported value being below either value? Did do a little research: low is good and the voltage being supplied to the CPU core(s) will vary on load. Lately Vcore has been around 0.90v, with 'spikes' to 1.30v when moved the mouse or something else happened to make the CPU do a bit of work. So this seems-to-be-too-low value is OK. OTOH might be something to monitor with the USB Lockup Issue (assuming it can be logged!). > KM> Haha... having twin boards has been handy more than once. One > KM> dies, just plug everything into the other and life goes on as > KM> before. > Yes, does tend to make repairs easier! Of course the problem is after a > while run out of the duplicate parts. Cannibalizing does have > advantages, though upgrading isn't one. KM> This is a minor difficulty. Still have plenty of those 286 motherboards, hmm?! > KM> Wasn't when mine was going... you wouldn't think a mouse dongle > KM> would overtax it, but apparently it did. Didn't lock up but would > KM> simply Not Work. > I'm thinking along those lines too: it seems more the act of plugging in > is the trigger as opposed to the electrical draw. LIS the other day, I KM> Same as one too many HDs would do to a marginal PSU -- it wasn't KM> the running draw, it was the startup draw that would make one HD KM> play dead. Or why staggered startup evolved in the first place. Uh-huh! Probably not a PSU issue here: not recalling what it is but should be at least 600W, probably closer to 750. And don't know what a thumbdrive draws but should be too much. (OTOH have felt them get warm in various computers). > plugged in the same card reader (and SD card) numerous times and only > once did it cause a lock up. Doesn't help either arguement: same USB > thing being plugged in, so seems should always/usually work or not work. KM> Too many variables in a complete system. > Right. And to extend I have an external USB 3.0 hub, so external power > source, and it does the same maybe-I'll-lock-up-maybe-I-won't thing when > a device is plugged in, which is why I'm leaning towards data rather > than voltage as the trigger. KM> And data is what the Southbridge handles... yeah, I saw the same KM> thing with my misbehaving beast. Seemed to be data was the KM> trigger, but data requires voltage to move... GAA!!! It's all one big circle!! It would seem (and I'll admit to sort of logically guessing) if voltage was the problem then plugging in to a powered USB hub should solve the problem: the hub has is own 5v supply. > KM> Short usually doesn't lock up, rather it causes an instant > KM> reboot. > Guess that pretty much excludes the problem being a short, or short > duration high current draw episode! (Isn't a true short but like a > motor which dims the lights when it starts.) KM> This was one reason I decided to cannibalize the server rather KM> than try to use it... every time I'd power up, it brought to mind KM> Frank Hayes... KM> And when it's all assembled there's computer to your collar KM> It's nice to have a micro but a mainframe would be smaller KM> And when they turn the power on, it's sure to dim the lamps KM> At plus and minus sixteen volts and fourteen hundred amps! KM> Ah! Found it! KM> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ow78cUDdTOg Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!!! Songs only computer nerds would understand! > Reminds me of the Heathkit GR-300 TV I built: just sitting there, SNAP! > and shuts off. HVPS board would arc to the chassis. First solution to > mind: round off solder pad points. Helped, but not completely. > Eventually glued a rubber pad on the chassis under the board -- solved! > Well, not a true solution but stopped the problem. KM> Sounds like a solution to me! :D With mine originally I put some KM> tape over the spot, but when a better case came along -- KM> transplanted! That can work! With the TV wasn't that good a consideration -- and BTW they (Heathkit) built the board because they effectively said it was too dangerous to have the hobbyist build. Obnviously they didn't do it quite right either. > > (BTW, the problem wasn't with the hardware but the software. Issue was > > the software is supposed to format the SD card. Yup: I was using a 64 > > GB card and so over that limit. Switched to a 32 GB card -- no > > problems.) > KM> Huh. What file format were you trying to use? > Default/FAT32/something else. In this specific case I don't think it's > the format but the software/utility: MotionEye. Seems to have problems > if the card is larger than 32 GB (so 64), current and prior versions. KM> Um, no. With FAT32 the SAFE limit is 32GB, which is why original KM> FDISK was limited to 32GB for FAT32 disks. Yeah, later versions KM> of FDISK could do 64GB, but this was a Bad Idea from someone KM> evidently not fully in the know, because there's a known bug (or KM> if you prefer, limitation) in FAT32: if the partition is larger KM> than 32GB, as soon as data crosses that 32GB barrier (either in KM> total, or just getting written that far out on the disk) FAT32 KM> starts eating files, in a manner that looks a lot like a disk KM> failure. Yes, agree. I'll admit to being sloppy and not fully being familiar with details. Have come across files over 4 GB being truncated because of the file system limitation. I think in this specific instance the problem is MotionEye not being able to expand the ISO (?) properly. Use a 64 GB card - Literally the same command line except having to change drive location from sdi to sdg with a 32 GB card - KM> I personally experienced this, so went looking, and found KM> Microsoft's original documentation on the problem. (Which KM> vanished when they nuked all the old support files.) Conveniently. KM> So if you are trying to make a FAT32 partition larger than 32GB, KM> and your software refuses -- it's just trying to save your sorry KM> butt. Right. I wasn't trying to do that. The card was marked as 64 GB, detected as such, worked fine with a limited test (copied a file to the 64 GB partition). just the expansion script used by MotionEye doesn't seem to like anything over 32 GB. I have seen 64 and 128 GB cards with MotionEye pre-installed -- don't like the price, plus if something goes wrong I'm screwed since I'm relying on somebody else. KM> exFAT (Extended FAT, commonly used on flash drives) is a I didn't see exFAT as a option to format the SD card. It is available -- just re-checked gparted. OTOH LIS a bit earlier, it seems to be a limitation of MotionEye even though is the specific version for the Raspberry Pi 3. KM> different filesystem entirely, more like NTFS without the KM> journaling overhead (and without the allocation table redundancy, KM> so if it fails, there's no recovery). Older Windows needs a patch KM> to see exFAT. It can be used on Really Big Disks. I usually KM> reformat 'em NTFS so everything can see it without any hoop KM> jumping. I've been using a journaled system on my bigger mainframe/server-type systems because I do want the recovery ability -- and probably have used it! KM> Of course FAT32 also has a filesize limit of about 4GB. NTFS and KM> exFAT have no such limit. Don't need that large a file for the MotionEye system. Other systems, yes. > I'm not the only one but of course now can't find anything to support. > Current creation: the command line to copy the image, auto-install the > static address, WiFi, etc., is rather long so I have a template on file > and copy that to Terminal. Several attempts with the 64 GB card, one > with the 32. KM> See above.... LIS it seems the problem is within MotionEye. Oh: also had run into a similiar problem with one of my external card adapters: it is USB 2.0 and has capacity limitiations based on the card: SDHC is 32 GB, Mini SDHC is 4 GB, regular and Micro SDXC is 64 GB. And to anticipate the question: IOGear GFR209. (I used a SIIG guess model JU-MR0712-S1 which says supports up to 2 TB.) > KM> Ya think? this is the same board with the USB low voltage issue!! > I'm starting to see a pattern! ...Brilliant thought: PSU issue?? KM> What brand is the PSU? Have you put it on a voltage tester? (one KM> that shows voltage for each line, not just a good/bad LED.) I've KM> become an Enermax bigot because those are the only ones I've KM> tested that have consistent voltage without sags or spikes. And KM> about half or 2/3rds of my stash that passed the good/bad KM> tester... got nixed by the one that shows actual voltage. Best KM> $15 I ever spent. Especially since a couple of the KM> supposedly-good were spiking bad enough to kill components. Might be going inside later! 'sudo dmidecode --type 39' was given one place as a way to find the PSU information -- not here. Sort of wandering the command line and 'sudo dmidecode | grep -i Power' gave me a line that said I have one power cord!! Use two for 240? ...Ah! Maybe plug two cords into two different outlets on two different circuits!! OK, back to work: pretty sure it's a Thermaltake rated 750W. KM> The other reason I've become an Enermax bigot (tho I buy the old KM> ones from when they were still 100% vertical) is that I've only KM> had one die, and it had somewhere high of 20 years 24/7/365 under KM> its belt. (And lordy, the size of the capacitors and heatsinks in KM> there... capacitors the size of your thumb. No wonder they don't KM> sag.) I've got an old PSU for a Sanders 720 with capacitors about 4" in diameter by about the same in height!! > KM> Which Lenovo board is that? > M51-8141 KNB. ...Well that's weird: checked another file and it says it > only takes 4 GB and has two slots. Definately has four slots. Maybe I > have the wrong card in it? (It and a couple others are currently being > stored.) KM> From what I can find, an M51 Thinkcentre (made in 2005 for KM> WinXP) only supports a 32bit CPU, or at least that's what it KM> shipped with, so would max out at 4GB RAM regardless of however KM> many slots. But it's socket775, so you'd think would support at KM> least early x64 CPUs?? What exactly CPU is in it? I'm going to have to physically pull and check. I have two computers tagged as "M51": one is a SFF and the other regular. The SFF one is the one I'm talking about where the published specs say 8 GB (2+2+2+2) but would only take 6 (2+2+1+1). Know it's that one as the tag also 'warns' DisplayPort. Video worked fine to HDMI (via adapter), only reason for the warning is being SFF has advantages for a MythTV Frontend, just not sure about audio via DisplayPort. KM> https://www.cnet.com/products/thinkcentre-m51/ KM> https://www.cpu-upgrade.com/mb-Intel_%28chipsets%29/915G_Express.h KM> tml KM> Hmm, nope, all the CPUs that chipset supports are 32bit. So 4GB KM> is the max RAM. But being kinda on the cusp of the Next Great KM> Leap Forward, it might have some rudimentary ability to SEE, if KM> not properly USE, more RAM. But the CPU can't address it anyway, KM> unless you LIKE data corruption. Four slots probably means at the KM> time 4x1GB sticks were significantly cheaper than 2x2GB sticks. KM> (They probably all have the four slots in the PCB, just not the KM> external part soldered on.) As I recall when I purchased the upgrade RAM checked with Crucial's site and they said a max of 8 GB (4x 2GB). So I'm thinking my "M51" tag is wrong. Right now can't see an official chassis tag. KM> Lenovo seems to have some funny ideas about its own products... KM> frex that RMA'd dual CPU board I got back as "refused"?? Lenovo KM> support guy swears up and down it's not theirs, and he worked on KM> developing the D20 line so he knows! BUT when I plug the model KM> number into Lenovo search, guess what, up comes the D20. Which it KM> doesn't look like... but BIOS (when it had one CPU, thus before KM> it PFFZT'd) said it IS a Lenovo D20. Must be some hands that KM> never shook other hands, is all I can think. They hired someone from Microsoft? Failed line "Nope, we never did that"! KM> I can't find the M51 on their site at all. Closest is the M53. "It gets worse"! One of the "M51"'s tagged here is an IBM - has the logo on the front. Their label "8142-KNB". I lso have a note "Intel Pentium 4 @ 3.20 GHz x2" (so dual core) and "RAM 3.0 GB max 4". So this one is the true M51. The other "M51" must be the imposter (cue "To Tell the Truth"! Marked "Lenovo" but I can't get to any official labelling nor notes. Is matching up with computer files I have for an M58 type 7360 -- plus there's a file about the memory issue (2+2+1+1). ...Made a note on the notecard. > > KM> Ah, well... when I get completely moved into New Silver, Cash can > > KM> have its old job back (secondary PCLOS streaming box) and Tarnish > > KM> can run ReactOS (which runs well on Tarnish, and doesn't like it > > KM> when there's more than 4GB RAM anyway). > > Sounds like winter projects! > KM> At least, after the baseball season. > But now they're showing reruns! KM> Not yet! You sure? Maybe your memory... > > It almost seems like CenturyLink is setting themselves up to fail. When > KM> They don't seem to want customers anymore, that's for sure... > That had been pretty much my thought for several years. It seemed like > they weren't making much of an effort to combat Mediacom (cable) around > here. Sure, CenturyLink is more telephone service with Internet and > television as additional services and Mediacom more TV with Internet and > telephone as additional but seems the average consumer looks at the > three options as one, or at least best bang for the buck. KM> Or so they've been taught to do by the cable/media/phone KM> companies. Possibly: "if you have us for [this] may as well get the other two options". BTW, received a confirmation call last night on my cell phone for the repair of the land line today. Pre-recorded, which I have no problems with. The problem was when the recording did the time inserts: something like "your repair technician will be there between" "" "and" " And there have been fiber optic 'noises' for years. Some time ago the KM> I have fiber right across the road, laid when Montana Power got KM> sucked into Enron's scam (I won't say suckered, cuz MP execs were KM> in on it as their exit strategy). 200 feet away and might as well KM> be on Mars. You can actually see this stretch (well, a couple KM> miles down the road) being laid in the Montana Power Debacle KM> documentary on PBS. So they have fiber down at the casino at the KM> next wide spot in the road, but not here. That's highly annoying! Don't know if you recall him here from years ago but think it was Chopin Chusacks who lived on the wrong side of the road: across the street was able to get some service but he could not. > City of Bettendorf was considering offering free WiFi (so Internet) and > then that faded and a bit later Metronet (fiber optic connection) made > its bid to provide service to Davenport and Bettendorf. To me it would > seem that should have shaken-awake CenturyLink: "hey, we're going to > loose customers! That's income!" but AFAICT they just kept snoozing. > Mediacom (cable) did (and continues to) actively upgrade their services > and offer some rather attractive come-on pricings. KM> I think a lot of 'em are in exit strategy mode and don't want to KM> increase stock value beyond what some other corp might be willing KM> to pay to snatch 'em up. Possible, though seems with CenturyLink this lack of upgrading has been going on before then. And CL seems to be huge, so more "we'll be buying you" than "you'll be buying us". Oh well. ...And thinking NBC was bought by GE and Universal and so Comcast, ABC by Disney.... > KM> Egads... I did find the phone number for the local tech, assuming > KM> the number still goes anywhere useful.. need to get around to > KM> calling him. > May or may not be useful. Last Spring called CenturyLink because of a KM> He's good... knows his stuff and is thorough.. but he's also not KM> in some damn call center. I could make a snarky remark about nationality but could be taken wrong by someone else. KM> Have a friend who worked in an EDS call center for about a year. KM> Thought he'd died and gone to hell. It was all about being KM> useless enough to keep people on the line longer so EDS could KM> charge overtime to HP. For this precise purpose they'd actually KM> designed the support setup so it was impossible to get any KM> support call done in the mandated time. You gotta wonder who at KM> HP got kickbacks to look the other way over what was flamingly KM> obvious to anyone with half a brain. Or, why call centers prefer KM> to hire dumb people. I will admit there are dumb customers out there. When we had the derecho last month I called in because of the power line being down (broken by the tree falling). MidAmerican Energy eventually sent out someone to check (_not_ being sarcastic on the 'eventually': there were thousands just in Bettendorf); essentially "yup, it's broken" (NSS!) but when we chatted with them the reason was because a lot of customers don't know the power line from the phone line (!). > very noisy and then loss of voice telephone (oddly DSL seemed > reasonable). Two or three loose wires were found by the technician, > whom I considered excellent: spent the time to track down and fix, plus > was pleasant. Unfortunately he travelled the country -- had just come > from Hawaii (!) and was going somewhere towards the East Coast next. KM> Didn't know they had traveling salesmen! I didn't either! Sure, makes sense to send 'extra' crew from one place to another to help take care of emergencies like hurricanes, etc. > > So yes, might be good for you to consider switching to the wireless > > company. I'd be checking the connectivity: decent during bad weather > KM> Had fixed wireless in SoCal and it was really spotty in anything > KM> that looked like weather. Had fixed wireless in Clarkston MT and > KM> it was solid even during a blizzard. One could hope the equipment > KM> is getting better, but it's still strictly line of sight. > And of course you don't know how good (or bad) it will be until after the > installation. Any correlation to your cell phone service? KM> Nope, tho their radio may live on the same tower. Hey, put a KM> tower on my hill, pretty please!! That would be nice! Have come across antenna terrain stuff -- shows where coverage is and isn't. Was kind of interesting as whatever I was looking at at the time showed a detailed lack of coverage along brooks and minor waterways ==> essentially at the top had signal but down the bank where the water was no signal. ¯ BarryMartin3@ ® ¯ @MyMetronet.NET ® .... VIR#SES?!?# We##on't #ot n##stink##g vir#####!########## --- MultiMail/Win32 v0.47 þ wcECHO 4.2 ÷ ILink: The Safe BBS þ Bettendorf, IA --- QScan/PCB v1.20a / 01-0462 * Origin: ILink: CFBBS | cfbbs.no-ip.com | 856-933-7096 (454:1/1) .