Subj : Re: Slimmed down Debian To : Barry Martin From : Ky Moffet Date : Sun Jun 14 2020 17:53:00 BARRY MARTIN wrote: > KM> > KM> Wait, I don't have a backup?? > That's what happens when you sit on a stool: nothing to lean against! These durn two-legged stools.... > > KM> got an upgrade. Anyway, OEMs don't want to have to piddle around, > KM> they just want a matched unit. > > It does help take some of the guesswork out of customer support! Exactly!! not to mention making the bottom line more predictable. > > But you're one tough man! ...Can't find it now but at one time PSensor > > displayed one thermal sensor as a couple hundred degrees below zero! > KM> Wow, now that's good cooling! > I was impressed! ...PSensor also says my CPU fan is rotating at zero > RPM - hmm! Obvious a wrong configuration somewhere but sort of low on > the priority list to figure out. Is plugged in to the correct > motherboard socket. I'd rather the CPU temperature be displaying right. Some boards have nonfunctional sensors. Others just aren't in the info app's database and will produce either zeros or random numbers. What are you using for this? Conky probably displays more info than anything else, but I don't like having that much flickering clutter on my screen. I want something like Task Manager -- minimized to the system tray and minimal visible activity. > > Since swapping in the CoolerMaster EVO cooler the maximum CPU > > temperature I've seen has been just below 120øF -- and considering there > > are times when it's been 85ø here in the Computer Room probably not a > > number. > KM> Yeah, that's about the improvement I'd expect. IOW, down to > KM> normal. > Yes, definitely much-much better! The Computer Room should be cooler to > allow a better environment temperature -- it's not in the budget to run > things that cold! Consider the advantage... no need to heat it in winter! Actually know someone who used an AMD CPU (this was in the late K6-2 era) to heat the garage apartment -- in Seattle, so not deep cold but not year-round toasty either. > KM> No idea on that.. why should backups done at night run hotter? > KM> Um... are you sure another PC wasn't sneaking upstairs and > KM> getting it on with the backup system?? that would explain the > KM> heat... > > Heck ,they some don't have to sneak around: they're already up here! > ..Maybe that explains the Raspberry PI I didn't remember having! This could be... which reminds me, ExplainingComputers has another RPi video today. He's a very pleasant chap and has a way of making stuff easily understood. > As for the running hotter overnight, no didn't make any sense to me > either. It would have made more sense to have problems during the > morning when doing the backup after the boot and I was usually on the > system. Just before swapping the heat sink assembly I turned off the > automated back ups temporarily (figured once too many times and Sound policy! > bye-bye!) and used a manual copy routine to an external hard drive (USB > 3.0) -- no problems. Warmed up some but wasn't to the dangerous level. > No ZIPping going on? A little bit slower data transfer? (The backup used > my Ethernet LAN to connect to the destination drive.) Hmm. Was something going through the USB port? If I want to see Bullet's southbridge chip hit 220F, all I need do is save a torrent directly to the USB external hard drive... I don't know if southbridge also controls onboard network ports but I'd guess that was the problem. Except more intense when it was the NIC being used, thus way more data than USB. I got a special copper heatsink for Bullet's southbridge, but installing it requires a complete dysmanglement (unmount the mainboard and perforce everything attached to it) so that's gonna wait til next time I need to take it apart for something else. At which point it'll also get the tower heatpipe cooler, which hopefully will siphon enough heat away from the mainboard to further mitigate the problem (especially if I can't make the copper heatsink fit due to Crap In Way syndrome). Cash doesn't need it (stock Intel cooler is good enough) and Tarnish (old Silver) is retired due to buggy southbridge and USB fail, so Bullet might as well benefit from it. > > > approved" heatsink/fan combo which kept the FX-8320 processor > > > sufficiently cool as long as it didn't do much work. > > KM> ..."as long as it didn't do too much work" is the very > > KM> description of inadequate cooling! > > Maybe that was the reason for the multiple cores: you're getting too > > hot, hand your processes over and take a break. > KM> Haha, that would be AMD's reasoning, all right. > I just can't quite gather together why if AMD is so into gaming which > does a lot of math why the CPU cooling was so chintzy. Oh well, just go As noted... gamers want a blingee cooling solution (preferably with lotsa blinkenlights), so they'll replace it anyway. But in my observation, AMD has always cut corners, and the heatsink is an obvious place to save a couple bucks. Copper costs 2-3x what aluminum does, and cast metal parts are basically sold by weight. And cooling is largely a function of mass and surface area. Aluminum, small, and hardly any fins.. well, naturally it doesn't work very well! > back to Intel. Maybe daisychain together a few RPi 4's and go that way! RPis are sure cheap enough now. Oh, the ExplainingComputers guy has a whole series on single-board computers, RPis and others. Some are really cheap (ten bucks). > > KM> I've had the thought that a generator that could run off the > > KM> natural gas line would be a Good Thing. > > It will be, though not falling through the deck seems to be a better > > idea right now. > KM> No, really? :D > OTOH the generator could run the electric winch to pull one of us out of > the hole! Oh, for that you just need two poles and a rope (mechanical winch). > > KM> So I went looking for "natural gas generator sine wave" and first > KM> thing I came to... > KM> https://www.chainsawjournal.com/firman-generators-reviews/ > KM> I'd never even heard of these, but they start around $300. > I never heard of them either -- will have to see what they offer and if > sold and serviced locally. Now that last is the important part! > KM> Ideally tho, one would want it hardwired into the house, and > KM> vented into the furnace flue. > > Hmm: I sort of thought they'd had to be outside. Inside would have Outside because they need to vent somewhere, and an engine running inside the house is a Very Very Bad Not Good Idea. But same with a furnace, if it wasn't vented. No real reason a generator can't be similarly vented, other than being designed to sit outdoors. Big diesel generators are put in the basements of hospitals and gov't buildings, presumably vented to allow it. (USGov no longer puts them in basements; the diesel tanks catching fire was what took down Building 7 on 9/11.) However, also no real reason they can't sit outdoors in their own little shelter, much as central air conditioners do. I'd consider a longer tailpipe to get fumes up away from the house, tho. > KM> Interesting that they're using Honda engines... back when I first > KM> looked into a generator (never bought one), Honda generators were > KM> just a Briggs & Stratton generator in a prettied up case (for an > KM> additional $1200). > > That's interesting! Older information I had was the Honda engines were > extremely quite, and that was one of the reasons they were used at the > John Deere Classic (golf tournament). Yeah, shows how long since I looked. Was probably in 1982!! > > They were trimming branches several years ago and dropped one across a > > major transmission line (40,000, 400,000 volts - was up there) -- oops! > KM> OOOPS! > > Really. :) They were supposed to be trimming branches to > prevent that kind of problem, not cause it! Well, they got THAT one backwards!! > I looked yesterday to see what old kernels I had as there was a semi- > large power failure -- automated system reported 769 people affected when > I called in a couple minutes after the power failed. I have the current > kernal and a back up. I must have a dozen, if not more. But I don't bother removing them, and PCLOS, being a rolling release, gets updates more or less continuously. > > OK, thanks. I vaguely recall playing with the video memory values and > > don't recall why I settled on the 20 MB value. > KM> I would do a power of 2, so use 32 instead of 20. Thinking this > KM> is more likely to align with what the OS expects of video RAM. I > KM> just leave it at 128mb since I have the RAM to spare and that > KM> should cover all possible use cases. > OK -- Yes, 20 MB is a odd value. I don't recall where I got it from . Somewhere that does not compute. :) > > KM> Still debating what goes on Fireball, tho since chances are it > > KM> eventually replaces Bullet (when/if it ever dies) ... XP64! > > Don't you just love new operating systems?! > KM> NO!! > I do tend to follow the old BBSers' "rule": never buy a > version ending in zero. Does that include Windows 10? :D > KM> Actually... if you just talk to them a lot, they will learn > KM> natural language about as well as a human child of similar > KM> intelligence. A very bright dog is about on par with a bright 6 > KM> year old, or maybe a little better, and can understand > KM> consequences about as well too (that being a good definition of > KM> functional intelligence); a dumb dog is more like an early > KM> toddler. Average is probably around same as 3 year old human. > KM> (But I've bred for intelligence for so long that merely-average > KM> dogs now seem retarded.) The idea that it's just a reflexive > KM> response to a familiar sound is nonsense. > > I've had two dogs, collie and Lhasa Apso, so not even approaching a > decent study size, but both seemed to know what they were doing in more > than a "if I do your trick I get a treat" way. Yep, if they've got any brains at all, they can figure out quite a lot. Treat training actively interferes with this, in training by selecting for a brainless reaction, and in breeding by selecting against brains. > > Especially if two of the Dells were essentially identical! > KM> Three of 'em, they're triplets! Tho oddly, despite being > KM> 'identical' they're not quite the same in subtle ways, which > KM> affect how Windows runs. Which is why one got picked to stay > KM> Win7; it ran best. > > Makes sense to use them to their talents. Around here it sort of would Yep... and one of 'em seemed happier with PCLOS so that's what it's got. The third makes do with whatever's left over. :D And did I mention of the pile of PCs lately come to live with me... out of 3 Seagate HDs, two already failed? yeah, out of warranty (actually, there IS no warranty because they were Dell OEM), but they were really low hours and have no excuse. (Low hours: one has 9000ish, the other 14,000ish.) The one heaved mightily and remapped a whole bunch of sectors, and now reports itself as good again, but that's a bald-faced lie (it was bad enough that the system wouldn't boot). The other continuously reboots the system. For comparison, WD told me their design lifespan is 40,000 hours (5 years). > have made sense to have identical computers as most run 'just' MythTV. > Didn't and doesn't work out that way as some fit better in a > vertical/upright orientation and some in a horizontal orientation. Also > not all bought together: had an old computer, used that; upgraded my > system, used that for another function. Lego PCs :) > > > get too mixed up" philosophy with MythTV being based on Ubuntu it sort > > > of made sense to learn or at least be more familiar with Ubuntu to > > > troubleshoot MythTV. > > KM> So there's some method to your masochism. > > Yup! Just not always so apparent from the surface. (Why am I thinking > > "deep down I'm really shallow"?) > KM> You need to refill your pool. > > We have a decorative pond in the back yard, submurged pump to > a couple of items. One is the 'classic' statue of a boy straddling an > urn and the water comes out the urn. Well it sort of looks like the kid > is urinating (along with a case of elephantiasis), so naturally I call > him "Pee Boy". Does he swim in the gene pool? :D > KM> I've been looking for something like an older Explorer or Ranger, > KM> but so far no joy (at least in my very low price range)... older > KM> cuz I want it up on legs so easy to put chains on, and the newer > KM> ones (aside from being ugly) sit too low. > Sitting low also has a potential problem with getting stuck in ruts, or > at least knocking off underneath parts. More of a problem with deep snow or mud getting suction-stuck against the bottom of the vehicle. But I also prefer to sit higher and have big open wheel wells, so every time I need to put chains on I don't use up my entire supply of bad words. > > KM> Actually, I found a P3-500 is about the minimum for decoding > > KM> DVDs, and it's real borderline (has spasms of being unable to > > KM> keep up). The old DVDs default to what, 720p? so there's your > > KM> baseline. The P233 could not play MP4s without a lot of > > KM> stuttering and staggering, and DVDs were right out. > > Yes on the 720 resolution; anything higher is an up-conversion. Was > KM> Ah, I was not imagining things. > Contrary to assumptions we have! Our usual method being to just Make S#1t up. :D > KM> Pretty much anything that can run linux well enough to not tear > KM> your hair out is enough for video. Linux really needs at least a > KM> multicore 2GHz system (unless you're using a minimal distro like > KM> Puppy) to run decently, which is about 20x more horsepower than > KM> the P3-500. So should be totally no worries there. > > Pretty much right. I'll admit to sort of wanting a 'high performance' > system because I don't to wait. A short bit of a wait is fine -- the > ol'd "aw com'on - it's time to upgrade: tagline sort of applies to me. Geez yeah, I hate that. Cash's Core2Duo isn't quite enough for browser use (can you believe what it takes to decode what's essentially text and scripts?) and sites like Google Maps clog it up but good... CPU pegged at 100%. > And as sort of a tangent: appears the RPi 4 with 4 GB RAM will run > MythTV v 30 just fine wirelessly. I think they separated the WiFi from > the USB -- something got changed and removed a bottleneck. Ah yes, I remember hearing something about that. > KM> This is why we format things NTFS; it doesn't have this silly > KM> bug. Yep, discovering the data wrapping bug was when I stopped > KM> using FAT32 for anything newer than Win98. > > I probably did try NTFS. May have even tried something 'oddball' like > Amiga and then back to FAT32/NTFS/something compatible -- something non- > Microsoft to 'overwrite' everything and then bring it back to something > Microsoft-speak. Something Went Wrong!! :O > KM> Was a day when NASA scarfed up 486s... utterly known set of bugs > KM> and features, a good thing when the PC tech is half a solar > KM> system away! > > Yes: stick with what's known! Another second of processing isn't going > to make too much of a difference after the signal takes a couple of > minutes to get there! It's a bit worse than that... one-way for Voyager is now 19 hours! > KM> You can actually buy an i7 motherboard with ISA slots now, made > KM> by DFI so it's probably pretty good. They sell 'em direct for > KM> about $300. If Moonbase's board ever dies (P4 with ISA slots), > KM> I'm lookin' at one of these. > > Makes sense! Sounds a bit odd as "what uses ISA now?" ...Hmm! I'll My DOS sound card!! > have to check what I have in the basement: I have some old-old > daughtercards. (Wrote myself a note -- will check eventually.) The Sound Blaster in Moonbase (DOOM machine) came with my original 486, bought in 1994! Still works. Still cranky about not being in the bottom slot (that pesky IRQ thing). > > > As for you seven 1GB sticks, odd, but semi-sorta makes sense: I have an > > > old Lenovo system with came with three 1 GB sticks -- four slots and the > > KM> To make matters odder, the seven sticks are server RAM > > KM> (registered ECC). > > That is getting odder! > KM> And no more useful! > Sometimes the oddity is more fun than the usefulness! Seriously! most Odd I've had: 5mb single-reel tape backup unit. Still powers on (or did last time I saw it... might have given it away) but what on earth would I DO with it? maybe cannibalize it for the power supply, turn it into an external HD case... it's all perfectly standard that way and the innards connect with molex. Next oddest: portable printer -- just the roller and ink cart, nothing else. Rather messy, but worked. Gave it away as more trouble than it was worth. > I had gotten home with the first pair (SS + DS), looked at 'em - maybe > even through the packaging - and said to myself 'oh-oh!'. Figured I'd > try -- maybe luck out. Nope. Nope!! > KM> Actually.. WDs had decent HD caching back to about the 2GB era; > KM> Seagates still sucked as of 40GB (they were supposed to have > KM> some, but it apparently did not work), but seem to be better > KM> since. However, Seagates still die in random and unexpected ways, > KM> which WDs typically do not. > > Quite a while back I read where Western Digital purchased another well- > known hard drive manufacturer and is (or was) still putting out drives > under that name brand. Where I have a choice I think I'll stick with > the the WDs. They own HGST and Sandisk now. Both quality products. HGST/Hitachi drives are perhaps most reliable you can get, and Sandisk are among the leaders in flash/SSD drives. I expect WD-branded SSDs are just rebadged Sandisk. BTW cheapest way to buy 'em is consistently via WD's store, and they have a 15% old fogey discount (tho you can only use it once a year, or something like that). Speaking of SSDs... if that system has a spare PCIe slot, you can get an NVME M.2 drive and a cheap adapter (they come in 1x, 4x, and 16x form factors) and ... well, they're about 4x faster than SSDs. Easy upgrade given I/O is frequently the bottleneck. I got one for Silver to use for email and VMs, given that's the largest files that get rewritten a lot and drive me mad waiting... so cheapest major-brand NVME drive I could find (happened to be a PNY, fine for what's basically a scratch drive) in a 240GB, and a $5 adapter. (Motherboard doesn't have an M.2 slot, and given NVME normal operating temperature is FRY, I'm not sure I'd want a device running THAT hot lying flat on the motherboard.) Anyway might be something to consider, to Reduce the Wait. > KM> I don't buy Seagate, because of the higher fail rate. Will use > KM> one if it falls on my head (ouch!) but won't pay for 'em. > KM> Backblaze's stats back up my contention that that Seagate > KM> sucks. > > My overall philosophy is to spend a little extra money and have it last. > There are times when a 'patch job' is being done and cheapest is good > enough, generally that bites one in the butt. Yeah... funny thing, WD drives are usually cheaper than Seagate. Price and quality, not always a good match. (In fact in dog food, it's become more or less an inverse relationship.) Used to be if you started with a good motherboard, you could skimp on everything else til the price came down, then upgrade CPU, RAM, video, etc. But nowadays board and CPU tend to be a matched set with a limited set of upgrade options. > > "Which Windows 10?" and "I just upgraded my Windows 10 to Windows 10!" > > (Huh?!) > KM> Oh yeah, that's enough to drive men mad. I have Win10-early on > KM> Westworld (in fact the way Win10 reminded me of the original > KM> movie is why that box got the name), and it is not much like > KM> Win10-current that's sitting unloved on one of the Dells. And > KM> Win10 has definitely not improved, some 10,000 builds later... > KM> all it's done is get more and more annoying. Hopefully KDE will > KM> stop copying this "modern" BS that's wrecking computer > KM> desktops... Trinity is XP-like but not as stable. > > To me it seems like there is some advantage to making Linux/the various > flavours look something like Windows as that's what people are used to, > so the 'conversion' isn't such a shock to the average Joe. OTOH as you Yeah... and let's not forget that up until things started to go downhill, around Win7 and later, Windows was all about the user, and making things easier and more pleasant for the user. Whereas only rarely have linux desktops been more about the user than about whatever the devs thought was kewl. And sometimes they still lose the plot, like when KDE dumped the mature XP-like system of KDE3/4 for the 'modern' look of KDE/Plasma5. Which everyone promptly tweaks to look as much like old KDE as possible. And Gnome switching to the cellphone-swipey paradigm, that's gotta be the most egregious case of screw-you to the users. > stated there are quite a few things which no matter how common don't > work and it is not a good idea to follow "just because". And then there > are a few things where Linux has to follow to get the hardware to work: > company has a contract with Microsoft and can't have a Microsoft version > and a Linux version, or better yet an open version. (I know: sloppy > terminology.) I don't know of any such case in modern software. From what Microsoft is doing with the linux subsystem for Windows, I have a suspicion they're going to pull a Novell and switch Windows' guts to linux, or at least try to... which would let them piggyback on existing development and fire all their OS devs. > > Cut the grass before the roofers came for last Monday -- could have gone > KM> Oh, THAT's what I'm supposed to be doing... there's another hour > KM> of daylight, and it's cooled off a bit.. need the mosquito gear, > KM> tho... > > Your lawn mower has a mosquito gear? Ours has rabbit and turtle speeds! Yeah, it flies. At least when we're leaping off the steep part of the front yard! > > another day or two but easier to find nails and other debris in short > > grass -- as it was we found a brass fitting for the nail gun their > > magnetic pick up missed ('cause brass isn't magnetic!). Not sure how > > they missed it as was bright brass (actually looked like it hadn't even > > been used yet). > KM> Sweet :D > > Better than to have found with the lawn mower blade! No bleep!! > KM> Who is Cristobal, a used hurricane? > > I think it was 'just' a tropical depression, though made a mess in Texas https://www.nhc.noaa.gov/refresh/graphics_at3+shtml/144135.shtml?gm_track > and parts of the South. By the time it got up here to Iowa was pretty > much just an extended rain event -- winds weren't all that bad -- 30-40 > MPH? Moved the branches around pretty good on the trees. Hurricanes DO occur over land, but usually in winter. Those "storm of the century" blizzards are usually hurricanes.... and MUCH larger than anything over the ocean. Wyoming's massive 1949 blizzard was really a hurricane (obvious from the air pressure maps of the day)... FIVE TIMES the size of anything that's ever hit the Gulf Coast. Siberia has several like that every winter... that's how they get snow piled to the 3rd floor windows. > .. If say "I always lie", am I lying? Yes. No. þ RNET 2.10U: ILink: Techware BBS þ Hollywood, Ca þ www.techware2k.com --- QScan/PCB v1.20a / 01-0462 * Origin: ILink: CFBBS | cfbbs.no-ip.com | 856-933-7096 (454:1/1) .