Subj : MSI H97 motherboard q To : Ky Moffet From : Barry Martin Date : Fri Oct 18 2024 08:41:00 Hi Ky! > KM> Its apparent function is to be a random temp dump. :) > "When no other RAM will take you in, we will!" KM> Sweet home surplus storage! Isn't that a Lynyrd Skynrd song? > > > know, did a quickie Google search: > > KM> Hadn't looked. > > Bing? GoGoDuck? > KM> Duckduckgo :) > Just answered Ed and his AI question (well, 'replied' more like it!); > wonder if the AI stuff would have been 'smart' enough to suggest > DuckDuckGo for my GoGoDuck, or would it have taken me to a GIF for a > 1970's Disco Duck?! KM> Try it :D See you in an hour or so after my sidetrack expedition! > KM> I haven't used Google since Startpage/IXQuick and then DDG came > KM> along. > I'll admit to sort of fallen into the trap of the default search engine > is Google -- Firefox deleted it for a while and got some severe backlash > -- and forget about the others. KM> I don't know how anyone uses Google anymore -- not worth wading KM> through the bogus and sponsored links. DDG is at least paring out KM> some of the bot-generated "information" sites. Well you know me! As for the bogus and sponsored links, I guess I haven't asked the questions to get those responses, and when I do scan the summary and decide it's not what I'm looking for. Not saying I'm not getting the bad links, just more have managed to avoid them. > KM> The problem here really is that the board only has half-vast > KM> support, and the deficiency is not documented. > Seems like they wanted to put out a board that supported multiple > NMVe's, created the mechanics for it (board placement, connections, just > couldn't figure the programming in time for the release. Maybe even > figured a BIOS update when they did figure it out. KM> Except the deficiency is probably in absent PCIe circuitry, which KM> a BIOS update ain't gonna fix. Just something a little soldering can't fix! > > "The manufacturer decides...". > KM> The mfgr didn't finish deciding.... > I did hate those long unproductive meetings! KM> LOL, might be. I was kinda surprised, tho, cuz MSI doesn't KM> usually do things halfway. But the gamer market corrupts KM> everything, because there it only has to look good and paint the KM> screen fast, it doesn't actually have to be good for anything KM> else. Forget if I mentioned it but in gamer boards, MSI and some KM> others (but apparently not Asus) you really can have only 16GB of KM> RAM before it starts working against itself (performance hit) KM> because no game uses more than 16GB (Playstation limit and why do KM> limit-different versions?) so that's what they design for. OK. I'm going to ask for a clarification here. There's MSI, and they manufacture (at least) two kinds of motherboards: one line aimed at gamers and there's another line aimed at non-gamers. So a gamer motherboard would essentially have its specifications capped at 16 GB (because of the PlayStation limit). I'd also presume because of gaming the video might be fantastic but the data processing aspect somewhat limited. Their other line would not have the '16 GB limit', maybe same super-duper graphics but also have really good data processing. So for my needs I'd want their non-gamer line, right? KM> Another reason to go for a workstation board if you have the KM> choice and need more than 16GB RAM. I think I should have read your next sentence! > KM> BTW a lot of boards that swing both Pentium and Xeon can double > KM> RAM amount over what's documented... if you use a Xeon CPU. > I don't think I have motherboards here like that. For me would be a new > MB and probably RAM and I'd figure the '2x RAM' was probably a > mislabelling: 64 GB labelled as 32. KM> I wonder about Silver's board since it supports Xeon. But don't KM> have the bigger sticks to test, nor another Xeon CPU of the right KM> specs (its i7 already maxes out the board). Fireball has the same KM> chipset and supports 192GB, with a Xeon. And as it is Silver has KM> 64GB RAM and (given the OS is XP64, rather economical on RAM use KM> compared to current OSs) rarely uses more than about 8GB unless KM> I'm running the big Win8 VM (I gave it 16GB), so there's not much KM> motivation. Right: I tend to give the particular computer what I think it will use plus a little more. A computer pretty much dedicated as a MythTV device will probably get 8 or 16 GB of RAM whereas the MythTV Server has 32 GB -- actually it had 64 GB originally but one of the sticks was faulty so returned and things working fine so when received the replacement pair used elsewhere. > KM> Yeah. Right now Zombie's video output has no job other than > KM> making me tear my hair out, because neither Win10 nor Win11 will > KM> see the rest of the network, other than very intermittently. And > KM> it's something in the hardware, cuz it's set the same as the > Half-wondering 'timing'? Components taking too long to respond to the > (CPU's) "you out there?" probe? (Translate that to tech-speak!) I've > run into instances where my Raspberry Pi's will boot but not see another > computer on the network. Connects fine with a manual 'mount' command. > (Solution is a 'wait for' type command in the boot sequence.) KM> Nope. When they're ten feet apart you're not dealing with lag, KM> and network discovery only takes a few seconds. If it were a KM> 10baseT or A/B wifi, maybe timeouts would happen, but it's none KM> of the above. So much for that guess! (10' apart, cable running along a antique fluorescent ballast....) > > > The only problem I've found with the built-in video is they don't > > allow more than two (maybe one) video ports. Here I'm starting to find > > a third monitor would be handy. > KM> I suppose it depends on the board. Some have 3 (or 4 with multi > KM> HDMI) ports on the board and claim all work at once. > None of the motherboards here have that. Do have HDMI and DVI (and > sometimes/usually VGA -- haven't used VGA in ages). And part of the > problem was me not looking for it: Only recently have I started needing > more monitor space. KM> I've seen a few workstation boards with a whole cluster of video KM> out. VGA, DVI, and two HDMI. I've probably seen them too, just at the time didn't need, or priced out of my range. > KM> Yeah, extra monitor is in my future, but first, a better desk. > Which reads if Ky adds any more weight (like another monitor) to his > present desk it'll fall apart! KM> More like if I add anything more to the desk, it'll fall off! KM> It's a reasonable desk (for pressboard crap that cost me the KM> trouble to fetch from down the road, and several screws to fix KM> where it's coming apart) in terms of design, just all filled up. Know that situation! My original computer stand -- think armoire style -- was relatively sturdy except for some reason it started pulling apart because of being dragged on the carpet. (Hmm: the unit iself wasn't exactly light, add two XTs, a CRT, and a printer -- what's its problem?!) The 'floor glide' s;ider things didn't help, possibly made worse as they sunk into the carpet. Did bolt in a couple of relatively long right- angle brackets for re-inforcement at the bottom. > Desk cnsiderations are 'interesting': I've seen computer desks which are > nothing more than a slab of wood on two stands. I need drawers for > storage! KM> And shelves. Extra shelves at all levels, including for keyboard. KM> And more places to stick midtower cases where you can also vent KM> and reach their backsides. Storage! YES!!!!! I've added a shelf where the opening for a tower computer is. The past few computers have been off the the (right) side on a 'table' with one of the UPSs underneath. The printer slide-out is now holds the shredder - and behind the shredder is storage for the spare UPS batteries. KM> Someday it'll fall apart and then I'll be motivated to scrounge KM> through the woodpile for 2x6 planks and build a new one. Maybe. KM> Someday. Which comes the afternoon of the current desk falling apart or something semi-valuable falling off current desk! Speaking of storage, I have shelves on the wall: the standards are screwed into the studs. Also 4' shelves (3/4") supported by 3 brackets -- not going to sag! The standards allow me to adjust the height of the shelves to fit what is on them. S.N.: You might want to use the double width brackets and standards as opposed to the cheaper single ones: I don't know what happened but maybe 15 years after initial use one of the shelves shifted: bent the brackets and of course the stuff on the shelf fell off. Good news: nothing damaged other than the brackets (which I had spares). > KM> The only RAM heatkinks, er, heatsinks I'm sure work come on RDRAM > KM> (Rambus) modules, and RDRAM runs so hot it needs 'em. > KM> Otherwise... they use either foam or silicon "heat pads" which > KM> are INSULATORS, how exactly is that supposed to work?? > Touches heatsink - nice and cool -- must be working! KM> Just not how you expect! A little hocus-pocus! > I don't buy that much RAM but when I do if the only option is with (or > without) a heatsink the decision is easy. If the manufacturer offers > both I usually look around for user comments to see which is preferred. > Either way make sure there is a breeze over the modules to move away > the heat! KM> Yeah, that's really the key. And that also means vacuuming the case every so often so the dust doesn't clog the vent holes. > KM> I think RAM heatsinks are mostly a selling point to the idiot > KM> overclockers, and provide a spot to waste power and add heat with > KM> fancy colored LEDs. > I tend to agree: same way they offer RAM in various colours: I don't > care if it's hot pink, just do the job! ...I do have some coloured > modules: were less expensive than the black! KM> Yeah, so long as it's not flashing lights at me, I don't care. KM> Tho I have a lighted Cherry keyboard that does KM> continuously-shifting rainbow backlighting. Not real bright and KM> makes the keys much easier to see! (You can turn it off, if you KM> want.) I'd prefer if the backlighting was able to stay with one colour -- I think the varying colour would be distracting as my brain would be thinking "waitaminute: this was green a minute ago, now it's blue...". LIS in some other messages, the coloured LEDs on components to me is something useless. If 'green for good' and 'red for hot' that's fine, but just for being pretty, nah! > KM> The older pair in Silver get warm, but not really hot. > Warm is fine. When things start getting hot then time to start figuring > out how to cool back down. ..Of course, one had to know it's getting > hot! KM> By the blister on your finger! Is that what that meant!! > KM> Those hoods are an invention of the devil. The hood arrangement > KM> was most of why that expensive Dell kept overheating. > IIRC mine also had a chassis fan. The CPU hood seemed to be mostly to > direct the hot air out and not mix into the chassis air. ...OTOH, if > the chassis air is being pulled out properly then the relatively small > amount of CPU air should not make a significant difference. (IOW > you're probably right -- the hood seemed to be a bill of goods.) KM> That, exactly. All it really did was prevent air from reaching KM> the CPU from the sides, so it was mostly just moving around its KM> own hot air. "But the request was to move the air around the CPU and keep it from heating up the rest of the insides!" > > But it's a Dell!! I'll admit to not being a fan of Dell only because > > back when I was buying used/reconditioned computers I could not find the > > specs for the units. "It can come with ..." doesn't tell me what I > > needed to know. > KM> Their consumer PCs are still kinda crap, but their business PCs > KM> (Optiplex and servers) have been very good for the past decade or > KM> so, and their business laptops have always been pretty durable. > KM> But yeah, in the olden daze they were terrible for proprietary > KM> parts (including the power connector from the PSU) and it was > KM> tough to replace anything but with an expensive Dell-branded > KM> part. Tinker was the first one I'd seen that could use > KM> off-the-shelf parts. Some since then still have proprietary PSUs, > KM> and good luck finding which without letting out the magic smoke. > Essentially right: I don't have nearly as much experience as you so > don't have a solid opinion. Over the years Dell seems to have a solid > business foundation. That could be partially price (business orders 500 > computers, save $50 on each, that's $25,000!). Could also be easy KM> Yeah, business literally buys 'em by the pallet, or the KM> truckload. Every 3 years if they have liability concerns (didn't KM> use the latest supported whatever? then the fail is your fault! KM> My sister's office won't even keep a car that's out of warranty, KM> millions of dollars of liability if a building falls down... KM> legal fault lands on 'unsupported' no matter whose fault it KM> actually was.) Yes, I remember you making that comment some time back. Read/heard something similar about the advantage of keeping and repair an old car: paid off, lower registration costs, etc. But a new car as the latest safety features, repairs might be covered by warranty, etc. As for the business liability stuff, the cost of the legal (trial costs, judgement payments, etc.) probably far outweigh the cost of keeping the hardware current. > customination -- we don't need a super-sharp video display but we do > need speed... put in the cheap video card, and fill the RAM slots with > 16GB modules. In the mean time I'm trying to buy a single unit. > Probably same base components: motherboard and chassis. What's the CPU? > Well, could be .... What's the video? Well... What's the memory? KM> Why has no one heard of using one of the hardware spec KM> utilities?? Speccy for one. Because takes time to boot the computer, run Speccy, inxi, whatever, link that data to the selling site, then when someone buys that set of specs someone has to get the specific machine rather than one from the general group. Lots of manual labour which is deemed too costly! > ..My guess is I was sort of getting the leftover from that day's > business production. KM> Like most of mine now. :) Nothing wrong with that! You probably have a ton of spare parts handy, ready to swap out, I have a few pounds, including that AGP video card! > > birdie told me that wasn't correct. Swap for a big heat sink assembly > > with a 120mm fan -- dropped the normal running temperature by about > > 50øF! > KM> Yup. Doesn't even need to be high-end, just better than what AMD > KM> gives you. I've never seen one of AMD's default HSFs that was > KM> more than just-barely-adequate if the CPU is doing absolutely no > KM> work. And if you heat-trip an AMD CPU, you'll probably kill it. > In that case I was lucky: the computer would reboot overnight. KM> Yeah, might be the BIOS was set to heat-trip below a temp that KM> killed the CPU. Moonbase's old board can do that, set heat trip KM> temp wherever you want. Possibly. Nice option as saves the component from killing itself. ....'Annoying' part was it didn't tell me there was a problem, I had to guess. ...Eventually figured out temperature (sort of guessed might be as the Computer Room was getting warmer because seasonal changes); wrote a script to capture various readings: holy poopy the CPU is getting hot! > KM> Intel doesn't do that. If a retail CPU ships with a HSF, it will > KM> be at least adequate. Not up to overclocking, but good enough for > KM> ordinary consumer use. > It still seems odd to me to be provided a junk heatsink/fan. I'd rather > not get it, not be charged, and so pay a little less for the CPU and > apply that money to the cooler of my choice. KM> That, exactly. Intel give you the choice -- buy the kit or the KM> naked CPU. But at the time AMD didn't. I don't know what they do KM> now, ain't buying AMD anyway. I tend not to support AMD because of various 'bad things' in the past. If a computer here has AMD I'll "deal with it" but as for buying a new computer/motherboard it's probably not going to have AMD. > > KM> And even the most basic heatpipe outperforms the best of the slug > > KM> type. > > More cooling area I'd guess. > KM> Nope. They usually don't have much of a foot and often not a big > KM> fin array either. The secret is that the heatpipes move heat > KM> really efficiently, basically operating like tiny fridge > KM> condensers (there's usually liquid inside the pipes). With newer > KM> CPUs, that's the only sort I'd use. And doesn't need to be fancy > KM> -- the $20 HP castoffs in Silver and Fireball do a stellar job, > KM> both idle just above ambient and about 45C if busy. Paid about > KM> the same for the one in Zombie, a little fancier, and that > KM> slightly-faster Xeon runs at about 45C. > That makes sense. Know the foot is pretty much going to be limited by > the size of the CPU it is sitting on -- any overlap doesn't have much of > a function. Moving the heat throughout the cooling fins can allow for > more cooling with less surface. KM> Well, any overlap can still serve as thermal mass. But you're KM> usually limited by the boundaries of the CPU socket that stick KM> up, adjacent capacitors, etc. Right: sort of realized that once said, just not enough experience to have it come to mind without seeing. And oddly enough I'm semi-working on updating an older computer: yup AMD, yup, there's a note on it about overheating problems. At this point not sure if an upright heatsink/fan will fit the case so might have to go with a horizontal option. Or maybe there are smaller upright options: right now only familiar with the ones with a 120 mm fan. > KM> Moonbase's temporary innards (dual P3-500, yes it's ancient) > KM> started falling over after about 20 minutes up... turns out > KM> that's how long one of the CPU fans lasts before it seizes up and > KM> heat-trips that CPU. It is temporarily a single-CPU system, not > KM> that it matters when its sole job is to play DOOM. But the > KM> overheated CPU is none the worse. Oiled the fan and now it turns > KM> much better; will have to check if it plans to stay working or if > KM> I'll have to dig one up somewhere. Those P3 CPUs need the fan. > I've resurrected quite a few fans of various types (including household) > with a good air dusting and sewing machine oil. Sometimes with computer > fans the problem is simply a build-up of dust: clogging cooling fins or > a build up on the edges and eventually stopping the spinning. KM> More often it's wear in fans with sleeve bearings. The bearing KM> gets sticky and dries out, and oiling will help make it slick KM> again but can't fix the wear. So they never resurrect for long. KM> Ball bearings type will resurrect more reliably, but can become KM> very noisy. I'd swear I've heard the clicking of the ball bearings moving around! I have some Muffin (brand) fans removed from mainframes which I got before moving out here in 1975. They have not been running since then but some had some pretty decent runtime! Right now using one in the bedroom to provide white (probably more accurately pink) noise while sleeping. I think the last time I resurrected it I used Lithium Grease and that seems to be lasting several years. > KM> Or I could just replace the innards, since I have a new board to > KM> replace the one that needs tired capacitors swapped... I ordered > KM> the $170 "used" board with some trepidation about the possibility > KM> of bad capacitors on a 20 year old board. I received the exact > KM> same board but brand new (current manufacture) that presently > KM> retails for $460 direct from the mfgr, and has solid capacitors, > KM> and came with a core2duo instead of a plain P4. Same model > KM> number, tho. Someone screwed up at the salvage yard. :D > It's sometimes nice when they hire cheap labour that doesn't know what > they're doing other than hand over the requested part! KM> Was twice in a row I didn't get what I ordered, but got what I KM> wanted instead. Lucky!! ¯ ® ¯ BarryMartin3@MyMetronet.NET ® ¯ ® .... 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