Subj : MSI H97 motherboard q To : Ky Moffet From : Barry Martin Date : Wed Oct 16 2024 08:35:00 Hi Ky! > KM> LOL. I just never got around to using it foranything in > KM> particular, tho at the time I probably had plans. As it is, it'll > KM> eventually accumulate enough temporary crap to fill it up. > KM> ("Only" 512GB.) > That could fill up real quickly or take forever, depending on the > function. KM> Its apparent function is to be a random temp dump. :) "When no other RAM will take you in, we will!" > > know, did a quickie Google search: > KM> Hadn't looked. > Bing? GoGoDuck? KM> Duckduckgo :) Just answered Ed and his AI question (well, 'replied' more like it!); wonder if the AI stuff would have been 'smart' enough to suggest DuckDuckGo for my GoGoDuck, or would it have taken me to a GIF for a 1970's Disco Duck?! KM> I haven't used Google since Startpage/IXQuick and then DDG came KM> along. I'll admit to sort of fallen into the trap of the default search engine is Google -- Firefox deleted it for a while and got some severe backlash -- and forget about the others. > KM> Yeah, see, according to the article, it should work with 4 NVMes > KM> (and the 4-holer card I have appears to be the same as the > KM> Asus-branded one, and probably is, except for the fancy cover). > KM> But turns out there's also "bifurcation" -- the board has to be > KM> able to support splitting the PCIe bus between two or more NVMes. > KM> And apparently Zombie does not, while somewhat-older Silver does. > Right: what semi-generic articles say and what the specific motherboard > does can be two different things. (semi-tangent:) I was reading about > eARC for a TV soundbar -- eARC was introduced with HDMI 2.1 and so > supports eARC but there's an 'asterisk statement': the manufacturer > decides what features incorporated and what are not. KM> The problem here really is that the board only has half-vast KM> support, and the deficiency is not documented. Seems like they wanted to put out a board that supported multiple NMVe's, created the mechanics for it (board placement, connections, just couldn't figure the programming in time for the release. Maybe even figured a BIOS update when they did figure it out. > KM> board, supports 192GB, more than most do today.) Used Asus P9X79 > KM> boards (initially popular with cryptominers, probably because all > KM> the x16 slots [3 to 6 depending on model] will simultaneously > KM> support a GPU) are now commonly being repurposed as budget server > KM> and workstation mainboards. > "The manufacturer decides...". KM> The mfgr didn't finish deciding.... I did hate those long unproductive meetings! KM> BTW a lot of boards that swing both Pentium and Xeon can double KM> RAM amount over what's documented... if you use a Xeon CPU. I don't think I have motherboards here like that. For me would be a new MB and probably RAM and I'd figure the '2x RAM' was probably a mislabelling: 64 GB labelled as 32. > KM> That's another thing Zombie doesn't support -- multiple GPU > KM> cards, which I expect is the same problem. However, it has pretty > KM> good onboard video (actually in the CPU), and allows up to 512mb > KM> shared RAM, so I haven't even bothered with a vidcard. > Right: if the video is sufficient for the viewing needs why bother with > a video card? The card would take away a PCIe channel which could be > used by the NVMe. KM> Yeah. Right now Zombie's video output has no job other than KM> making me tear my hair out, because neither Win10 nor Win11 will KM> see the rest of the network, other than very intermittently. And KM> it's something in the hardware, cuz it's set the same as the KM> other 10/11 boxen that work fine (for Win10/11 values of 'fine' KM> -- that is, access tends to be only one way) and it does no KM> better with Westworld's "portable" Win10 (that was installed on KM> Westworld but doesn't care what PC the HDD is in) that normally KM> works perfectly with the local network. Same with onboard NIC and KM> MSI's own wifi card. Both see router and internet. Will sometimes KM> see linux box, but not always. Nothing else. Can sometimes be KM> seen by Silver, but not accessed. KM> Couldn't see the old PCI (not e) 3COM NIC I tried for KM> troubleshooting, and don't have a newer one instantly to hand. Half-wondering 'timing'? Components taking too long to respond to the (CPU's) "you out there?" probe? (Translate that to tech-speak!) I've run into instances where my Raspberry Pi's will boot but not see another computer on the network. Connects fine with a manual 'mount' command. (Solution is a 'wait for' type command in the boot sequence.) > The only problem I've found with the built-in video is they don't > allow more than two (maybe one) video ports. Here I'm starting to find > a third monitor would be handy. KM> I suppose it depends on the board. Some have 3 (or 4 with multi KM> HDMI) ports on the board and claim all work at once. None of the motherboards here have that. Do have HDMI and DVI (and sometimes/usually VGA -- haven't used VGA in ages). And part of the problem was me not looking for it: Only recently have I started needing more monitor space. KM> Yeah, extra monitor is in my future, but first, a better desk. Which reads if Ky adds any more weight (like another monitor) to his present desk it'll fall apart! Desk cnsiderations are 'interesting': I've seen computer desks which are nothing more than a slab of wood on two stands. I need drawers for storage! Desk surface itself -- and speaking of monitors. My desk won't accept the clamp-on monitor stands: not enough overlap (or whatever the goes-beyond the sides is called). Back surface (against the wall) is covered with a thin sheet of wood -- probably adds to the stability. Could cut a hole for the clamp (measure how far back the drawer goes!) but LIS this desk is pretty close to the wall and I could get a clamp to fit. (It's a large corner desk, so heavy and basically impossible to move without taking apart.) > KM> Well, heat-trips are real enough, but you can buy most NVMes > KM> either with or without a mfgr-attached heatsink. And... > I'd tend to go with heat sinks but then I read when I was looking at RAM > about a year ago the material the manufacturer used to keep the heat > sink on the memory stick retained heat -- didn't pass the heat > effectively from the chips to the heat sink. KM> The only RAM heatkinks, er, heatsinks I'm sure work come on RDRAM KM> (Rambus) modules, and RDRAM runs so hot it needs 'em. KM> Otherwise... they use either foam or silicon "heat pads" which KM> are INSULATORS, how exactly is that supposed to work?? Touches heatsink - nice and cool -- must be working! I don't buy that much RAM but when I do if the only option is with (or without) a heatsink the decision is easy. If the manufacturer offers both I usually look around for user comments to see which is preferred. Either way make sure there is a breesze over the modules to move away the heat! KM> I think RAM heatsinks are mostly a selling point to the idiot KM> overclockers, and provide a spot to waste power and add heat with KM> fancy colored LEDs. I tend to agree: same way they offer RAM in various colours: I don't care if it's hot pink, just do the job! ...I do have some coloured modules: were less expensive than the black! > > KM> Had the 1TB NVMe > > KM> (on a PCIe card, no heatsink) working for a while the other day > > KM> and afterward it's barely warm enough to tell it was powered on. > KM> Couple days ago two hours of continuous use, barely warm to the > KM> touch. > I'd say it was sufficiently cooling. KM> Yeah, got itself right at the top of the "not to worry" list! KM> (WD 1TB Blue, happened to be on sale half price and was deemed KM> adequate.) Half-price is good!! KM> The older pair in Silver get warm, but not really hot. Warm is fine. When things start getting hot then time to start figuring out how to cool back down. ..Of course, one had to know it's getting hot! > BTDT! I don't consider the PSU fan(s) as chassis cooling. The chassis > fans should provide a directional breeze (vs. gale-force winds) to move > warm air out. KM> I think problems arise when people neglect to note that the KM> average case is effectively full of baffles, just from how KM> they're constructed and from being full of cards, and don't KM> realize that you have to blow air INTO a confused, er, baffled KM> area, not ACROSS it (which may prevent circulation entirely). Right. Air is going to take the path of least resistance, so essentially straight through, probably with a few curves around hardware. That leaves the poor component in the corner possibly 'sweating' from stagnent air! I have added fans in odd places just to be sure air is moving there. Not too concerned with motherboard components but a daughtercard stuck in the bottom slot might appreciate the added breeze! > KM> Most of the higher-end cases of the past had an intake fan, so > KM> I'm not alone in this. (Silver, Paladin, and Bullet all do.) > I think all of my 'new' desktops have at least one chassis fan. Recall > at least one old computer where the CPU fan had a hood on it to blow the > hot air out of the case. KM> Those hoods are an invention of the devil. The hood arrangement KM> was most of why that expensive Dell kept overheating. IIRC mine also had a chassis fan. The CPU hood seemed to be mostly to direct the hot air out and not mix into the chassis air. ...OTOH, if the chassis air is being pulled out properly then the relatively small amount of CPU air should not make a significant difference. (IOW you're probably right -- the hood seemed to be a bill of goods.) > KM> Dell's "engineered" cooling on what was in 2003 their > KM> top-of-the-line $4000 system was probably the worst I've ever > KM> seen. Tinker came to me as a two year old because it wouldn't > KM> stay running even with then-newfangled water cooling, but still > KM> using the dedicated air funnel... I threw out all Dell's crap, > KM> gave it a normal HSF and a case-intake fan; temp dropped 40F and > KM> it ran stable until the capacitors went a few years later. > KM> (Probably the most overpriced motherboard I've seen, too.) > But it's a Dell!! I'll admit to not being a fan of Dell only because > back when I was buying used/reconditioned computers I could not find the > specs for the units. "It can come with ..." doesn't tell me what I > needed to know. KM> Their consumer PCs are still kinda crap, but their business PCs KM> (Optiplex and servers) have been very good for the past decade or KM> so, and their business laptops have always been pretty durable. KM> But yeah, in the olden daze they were terrible for proprietary KM> parts (including the power connector from the PSU) and it was KM> tough to replace anything but with an expensive Dell-branded KM> part. Tinker was the first one I'd seen that could use KM> off-the-shelf parts. Some since then still have proprietary PSUs, KM> and good luck finding which without letting out the magic smoke. Essentially right: I don't have nearly as much experience as you so don't have a solid opinion. Over the years Dell seems to have a solid business foundation. That could be partially price (business orders 500 computers, save $50 on each, that's $25,000!). Could also be easy customination -- we don't need a super-sharp video display but we do need speed... put in the cheap video card, and fill the RAM slots with 16GB modules. In the mean time I'm trying to buy a single unit. Probably same base components: motherboard and chassis. What's the CPU? Well, could be .... What's the video? Well... What's the memory? ....My guess is I was sort of getting the leftover from that day's business production. (And to reinterate: that was years ago.) > Makes sense: one wants the heat to flow from hot (the chip) to cold (the > air). If the heat sink retains heat that doesn't help cooling the chip. > There is going to be some residual heat in the heat sink just because of > 'inefficiencies' but overall the heat sink should pass on the heat. KM> Right. I have a couple of those passive copper server heatsinks, KM> made for older Xeons (which ran rather hot). The foot is 1/3 inch KM> thick and they have about 50 very thin fins. They will not take a KM> fan, so it was all ambient air movement. Chassis fans to the rescue! > Yup: on a previous system (it's still in use around here someplace) the > AMD CPU was overheating when the room temperature got warmer in later > Spring. At the time used the heatsink assembly provided by AMD with > their CPU. At the time to me it was if the manufacturer is fine with > this assembly so am I -- I'm not overclocking, gaming, etc. A little KM> AMD assumes their retail market is all gamers, who are going to KM> overclock so will be replacing it anyway. So they always provide KM> the cheapest crap that still more or less appears to be a HSF. -- KM> I may have been the birdie. :D Quite possibly! > birdie told me that wasn't correct. Swap for a big heat sink assembly > with a 120mm fan -- dropped the normal running temperature by about > 50øF! KM> Yup. Doesn't even need to be high-end, just better than what AMD KM> gives you. I've never seen one of AMD's default HSFs that was KM> more than just-barely-adequate if the CPU is doing absolutely no KM> work. And if you heat-trip an AMD CPU, you'll probably kill it. In that case I was lucky: the computer would reboot overnight. KM> Intel doesn't do that. If a retail CPU ships with a HSF, it will KM> be at least adequate. Not up to overclocking, but good enough for KM> ordinary consumer use. It still seems odd to me to be provided a junk heatsink/fan. I'd rather not get it, not be charged, and so pay a little less for the CPU and apply that money to the cooler of my choice. > KM> And even the most basic heatpipe outperforms the best of the slug > KM> type. > More cooling area I'd guess. KM> Nope. They usually don't have much of a foot and often not a big KM> fin array either. The secret is that the heatpipes move heat KM> really efficiently, basically operating like tiny fridge KM> condensers (there's usually liquid inside the pipes). With newer KM> CPUs, that's the only sort I'd use. And doesn't need to be fancy KM> -- the $20 HP castoffs in Silver and Fireball do a stellar job, KM> both idle just above ambient and about 45C if busy. Paid about KM> the same for the one in Zombie, a little fancier, and that KM> slightly-faster Xeon runs at about 45C. That makes sense. Know the foot is pretty much going to be limited by the size of the CPU it is sitting on -- any overlap doesn't have much of a function. Moving the heat throughout the cooling fins can allow for more cooling with less surface. KM> Moonbase's temporary innards (dual P3-500, yes it's ancient) KM> started falling over after about 20 minutes up... turns out KM> that's how long one of the CPU fans lasts before it seizes up and KM> heat-trips that CPU. It is temporarily a single-CPU system, not KM> that it matters when its sole job is to play DOOM. But the KM> overheated CPU is none the worse. Oiled the fan and now it turns KM> much better; will have to check if it plans to stay working or if KM> I'll have to dig one up somewhere. Those P3 CPUs need the fan. I've resurrected quite a few fans of various types (including household) with a good air dusting and sewing machine oil. Sometimes with computer fans the problem is simply a build-up of dust: clogging cooling fins or a build up on the edges and eventually stopping the spinning. KM> Or I could just replace the innards, since I have a new board to KM> replace the one that needs tired capacitors swapped... I ordered KM> the $170 "used" board with some trepidation about the possibility KM> of bad capacitors on a 20 year old board. I received the exact KM> same board but brand new (current manufacture) that presently KM> retails for $460 direct from the mfgr, and has solid capacitors, KM> and came with a core2duo instead of a plain P4. Same model KM> number, tho. Someone screwed up at the salvage yard. :D It's sometimes nice when they hire cheap labour that doesn't know what they're doing other than hand over the requested part! ¯ ® ¯ BarryMartin3@MyMetronet.NET ® ¯ ® .... Why don't skeletons go Trick-or-Treating? Because no body to go with. --- MultiMail/Win32 v0.47 þ wcECHO 4.2 ÷ ILink: The Safe BBS þ Bettendorf, IA --- QScan/PCB v1.20a / 01-0462 * Origin: ILink: CFBBS | cfbbs.no-ip.com (454:1/1) .