Subj : MSI H97 motherboard q To : Ky Moffet From : Barry Martin Date : Mon Oct 07 2024 09:05:00 Hi Ky! > > When I installed the NVMe in this computer I didn't add any extra > KM> Silver has one for I don't know what (currently > KM> other-drive-is-busy let's-prevent-fragmentation storage) and one > KM> that does swapfile, temp and browser cache, and VMs (3 > KM> partitions). > That unknown function is interesting: of course the obvious question is > how do we know the NVMe is doing its job if we don't know what its job > is?! ...Must have come from a government computer - DMV?! KM> LOL. I just never got around to using it foranything in KM> particular, tho at the time I probably had plans. As it is, it'll KM> eventually accumulate enough temporary crap to fill it up. KM> ("Only" 512GB.) That could fill up real quickly or take forever, depending on the function. > KM> Zombie (the "dead" gamer board) apparently can only support ONE > KM> NVMe, no matter where it is -- still haven't found one that the > KM> mainboard slot supports, but it'll boot off one in a PCIe card. > KM> But only ONE. Two on the card, or one on each of two cards, nope > KM> -- only one is seen. The joys of between-generation tech... > Being sort of curious, especially when you the usual go-to guy doesn't > know, did a quickie Google search: KM> Hadn't looked. Bing? GoGoDuck? > 2 NVMe SSDs require 4 PCIe lanes to operate. PCIe x16: your motherboard > often has a primary x16 slot for GPUs and additional x16 slots. 16 > PCIe lanes can support an expansion card with 4 additional M. 2 NVMe > SSDs. > ttps://www.sabrepc.com/blog/Computer-Hardware/how-to-add-m-2-nvme-ssd-to-you KM> - > otherboard KM> Yeah, see, according to the article, it should work with 4 NVMes KM> (and the 4-holer card I have appears to be the same as the KM> Asus-branded one, and probably is, except for the fancy cover). KM> But turns out there's also "bifurcation" -- the board has to be KM> able to support splitting the PCIe bus between two or more NVMes. KM> And apparently Zombie does not, while somewhat-older Silver does. Right: what semi-generic articles say and what the specific motherboard does can be two different things. (semi-tangent:) I was reading about eARC for a TV soundbar -- eARC was introduced with HDMI 2.1 and so supports eARC but there's an 'asterisk statement': the manufacturer decides what features incorporated and what are not. > So PCIe issue? I haven't read the article yet but based on that snippet > either something not turned on (or off) in the BIOS or something like > the video card - and maybe the other PCIe cards - using the lanes the > other NVMe wants. Does seem off the motherboard has the NVMe slots but > not the capabilities. KM> That could be. But Silver's mainboard is two years older and has KM> zero issues with NVMes on two different cards. Then again, in KM> some ways Silver's (Asus P9X79 LE) is a more competent board; it KM> was designed for more than just gamer appeal; for one thing it KM> supports 64GB RAM, which at the time was found only in servers KM> and workstations. (Fireball, same age, dedicated workstation KM> board, supports 192GB, more than most do today.) Used Asus P9X79 KM> boards (initially popular with cryptominers, probably because all KM> the x16 slots [3 to 6 depending on model] will simultaneously KM> support a GPU) are now commonly being repurposed as budget server KM> and workstation mainboards. "The manufacturer decides...". KM> That's another thing Zombie doesn't support -- multiple GPU KM> cards, which I expect is the same problem. However, it has pretty KM> good onboard video (actually in the CPU), and allows up to 512mb KM> shared RAM, so I haven't even bothered with a vidcard. Right: if the video is sufficient for the viewing needs why bother with a video card? The card would take away a PCIe channel which could be used by the NVMe. The only problem I've found with the built-in video is they don't allow more than two (maybe one) video ports. Here I'm starting to find a third monitor would be handy. > > KM> But flat against a heat source doesn't strike me as optimal, no. > > Maybe the simple blowing the air around is sufficient. As I recall the > KM> I'd think so. I've developed the impression that NVMe heatsinks > KM> and other blather are mostly for gamers who are doing huge reads > KM> repeatedly, already have a system full of bling and overclocking > KM> heat, and that starts heat-tripping the drive. > Could also be a mindset of 'Heat Sinks Are Good!' and the manufacturer > add a 2› part to establish a $5 additional cost. KM> Well, heat-trips are real enough, but you can buy most NVMes KM> either with or without a mfgr-attached heatsink. And... I'd tend to go with heat sinks but then I read when I was looking at RAM about a year ago the material the manufacturer used to keep the heat sink on the memory stick retained heat -- didn't pass the heat effectively from the chips to the heat sink. > KM> Had the 1TB NVMe > KM> (on a PCIe card, no heatsink) working for a while the other day > KM> and afterward it's barely warm enough to tell it was powered on. KM> Couple days ago two hours of continuous use, barely warm to the KM> touch. I'd say it was sufficiently cooling. > KM> Case hanging open, but no case fan, just a CPU fan barely running > KM> and whatever the PSU has, also on low. Probably won't bother with > KM> a secondary case fan, doesn't seem very necessary. (Also won't > KM> have a bunch of hot spinning rust internal drives.... doors hang > KM> open on Silver's spinnies in hotswap bays). > I read somewhere too many fans is unnecessary and sometimes even work > against each other. KM> Depends. Normally the PSU has an exhaust fan (sometimes its own KM> intake fan, too) and that really isn't enough. When the case is KM> full of Hot Stuff, I like to add an intake fan to the case, which KM> also keeps a lot of the dust and particularly lint out of the KM> case. Otherwise that PSU fan creates enough vacuum to suck crud KM> into every orifice (can be enough to totally clog up a floppy or KM> optical drive). So give it a dedicated air source instead, and a KM> filter mesh on the outside of that, if need be. BTDT! I don't consider the PSU fan(s) as chassis cooling. The chassis fans should provide a directional breeze (vs. gale-force winds) to move warm air out. KM> Most of the higher-end cases of the past had an intake fan, so KM> I'm not alone in this. (Silver, Paladin, and Bullet all do.) I think all of my 'new' desktops have at least one chassis fan. Recall at least one old computer where the CPU fan had a hood on it to blow the hot air out of the case. KM> Dell's "engineered" cooling on what was in 2003 their KM> top-of-the-line $4000 system was probably the worst I've ever KM> seen. Tinker came to me as a two year old because it wouldn't KM> stay running even with then-newfangled water cooling, but still KM> using the dedicated air funnel... I threw out all Dell's crap, KM> gave it a normal HSF and a case-intake fan; temp dropped 40F and KM> it ran stable until the capacitors went a few years later. KM> (Probably the most overpriced motherboard I've seen, too.) But it's a Dell!! I'll admit to not being a fan of Dell only because back when I was buying used/reconditioned computers I could not find the specs for the units. "It can come with ..." doesn't tell me what I needed to know. > To me it would seem more efficient to be able to move some of the heat > away from the source and redistribute to other parts of the heat sink -- > give additional removal spots. Sort of like the old stove/furnace in KM> The heatsink is supposed to remove heat from the chip, not just KM> move it around. It does no good to reheat another fin, and may KM> harm heat flow. It needs to flow out the fins as directly as KM> possible, that's all there is to it. Of course a larger slug can KM> absorb more heat, but may not release it efficiently. Best seems KM> to be a middling slug (big enough that it doesn't overheat, small KM> enough that it doesn't also store a lot of heat) and lots of very KM> conductive fins, with or without their own fan. (many server CPUs KM> are passively-cooled, but use copper heatsinks.) Makes sense: one wants the heat to flow from hot (the chip) to cold (the air). If the heat sink retains heat that doesn't help cooling the chip. There is going to be some residual heat in the heat sink just because of 'inefficiencies' but overall the heat sink should pass on the heat. KM> Here is the real trick: copper everywhere you can have it. HSF KM> foot, contact slug or heatpipes, and if possible the fins too. On KM> a middling-hot AMD (well, all AMDs run relatively hot) I swapped KM> the default aluminum HSF for an otherwise nearly-identical KM> all-copper HSF (fins too), and its running temperature dropped KM> 40F degrees. Yup: on a previous system (it's still in use around here someplace) the AMD CPU was overheating when the room temperature got warmer in later Spring. At the time used the heatsink assembly provided by AMD with their CPU. At the time to me it was if the manufacturer is fine with this assembly so am I -- I'm not overclocking, gaming, etc. A little birdie told me that wasn't correct. Swap for a big heat sink assembly with a 120mm fan -- dropped the normal running temperature by about 50øF! KM> And even the most basic heatpipe outperforms the best of the slug KM> type. More cooling area I'd guess. > KM> The rather-slower i5 that came on Zombie had been heat-tripped > KM> (HSF wasn't even touching for the most part) and firmly believes > KM> it runs at 99C all the time, even when it's barely warm. BUT... > KM> otherwise it still works. > The sensor could either be damaged/stuck or the software reading the > sensor is incorrect. I've seen oddball readings on my hardware > indicating the device is at freezinf (0øC) or thinks it has liquid > nitrogen cooling (super-cold reading). KM> No, it had definitely been heat-tripped (remember it came to me KM> because it was at best flaky and had been deemed dead), and KM> probably that set a flag in the CPU so now it believes if it's KM> powered on, it's that hot. It takes seconds to get there, even if KM> it's barely warm to the touch. Likely it's meant to indicate it KM> ought to be replaced, but it behaves fine with better cooling. KM> But the "new" Xeon is so much faster, I don't care what the i5 KM> thinks. :D It did get replaced: well, the owner did! > .. Some Haiku express > depths of insight and beauty > but this one does not. KM> That's the one I couldn't quite remember! Glad to be of assistance! ¯ ® ¯ BarryMartin3@MyMetronet.NET ® ¯ ® .... Printer won't print: data stuck: traffic jam on information superhighway --- MultiMail/Win32 v0.47 þ wcECHO 4.2 ÷ ILink: The Safe BBS þ Bettendorf, IA --- QScan/PCB v1.20a / 01-0462 * Origin: ILink: CFBBS | cfbbs.no-ip.com (454:1/1) .