Subj : Re: Lacros To : Barry Martin From : Ky Moffet Date : Thu Aug 24 2023 16:08:00 BARRY MARTIN wrote: > Hi Ky! > KM> Were those the fanless all-in-one? Have personally seen one of > KM> those catch fire... > > So you're indicating they ran a little hot?! Yes, these were all-in- A lot hot. Have seen one catch fire and another that smoked... > ones; I think the power supply was encased in epoxy; maybe the > motherboard -- for heatsink?? Mainly recalling it was a good computer > just not a good fit for me as I liked to go inside and improve/upgrade. From what I hear performance was really not very good, not least because of thermal throttling. I guess it was better than the previous Macs, but that's not saying much. Poor math processing, slow bus, slow hard drive.... > > Your 'different inside' comment reminded me of why I never bought a Dell > > computer when I was buying refurbished computers: I never could get a > > detailed answer on what was inside. I don't recall if down to the > KM> Um... open it up and look. :) > > Well the problem would be I would need to buy it and then open it up to > see what it was made of. No, no, no, ask the vendor to.... > KM> I don't know what they did before about 2000, but I've had > KM> several desktop Dells fall on my head since then. All you need do > KM> is pull on the latch (they have a latched side or top panel, not > KM> screws) and take a look. > > Probably right on the easy-opening: I've got some IBMs/Lenovo's here > which do the same: I know one has a single latch-button in the rear of > the top cover which inside connects to a Y-shaped brackets which somehow > opens latches on sides. Most of the others simply have a button on each > side to unlatch. (Maybe the one-button thing was because he broke his > arm and couldn't do two buttons at the same time, or was showing off for > a machanical award!) Hahaha... these have a handle. Very easy. > KM> What the mainboard offers depends on which form factor and which > KM> grade. > > That was the details I couldn't get (and I'm talking pre-2000 still). > The selling info would say "Dell Model 1234-C" but go to look that up > and I oculd only get to what options it could come with, so might come > with a 240W PSU or a a 750W one or somewhere in-between. Base of 8 GB > RAM, but no indication of expansion possibilities nor available slots. The pre-2000 Dells I'd seen were not very good. All the ones that came thru the User Grope got junked. So I don't think you missed much. In that era, my observation (from a couple hundred donations that were largely any brand you can name) was that HPs were a little better performing and more stable (as they were built for the business market), but if you wanted a prebuilt that was at all flexible and wasn't complete junk, Gateway was the only way to go. The parts were largely seconds but all pretty standard; once they got to a P-II tower you could upgrade them like any clone system. I have a PII-800 Gateway in the basement... works fine, has 9 slots and all of 'em full of something... just not useful in the modern era, tho it does have a TV capture card. So I ended up refurbing the HPs and Gateways, but everything else was stripped for parts. Micron and Packard Smell were such crap they got gutted by default, and I don't think I ever saw a working Dell. > Good news: it's well past 2000 and apparently the information is more > readily available now. Woah! Who would have guessed??! > > KM> I have two Dells that came in a standard-enough ATX tower and > KM> they're basically what you'd build out of the scrap bin. > > Good. :) Good indeed :) > Heat can create strange issues! (Tangent) It's been hot and humid here > this week -- air temperatures approaching 100ø (might be a degree or two > over that this afternoon or tomorrow). I've got two Raspberry Pi's in a > closet - both in metal cases with heat sink 'feet' to the motherbaord. > One has a fan, one doesn't. (Built/installed at two different times.) > The one without the fan started acting up lately: the closet isn't that > hot but apparently with lack of circulation... Contactless thermal > probe: yup: fanless case about 10ø hotter than the fan case, plus the > software report of the processor's temperature was 10-15ø warmer on the > fanless one. Well, now you know the limits of Pi heat tolerance.... > KM> Lightfoot is a Quad-core 3GHz with onboard everything, 3 PCIe and > KM> one PCI slot. 4 RAM slots. It came with some random vidcard along > KM> with the onboard video. It is the cheap consumer model. > > KM> Here's the same board: > KM> https://www.ebay.com/p/98189154 > KM> This is the cheap consumer board, not expected to work hard for a > KM> living. > > Poor thing wouldn't last long here! The eBay site didn't have the specs > but took me a couple of clicks to get to a site with specifications. To > me that's acceptable' back in the old days (my pre-2000 buy refurbished) > I couldn't get the to specs. Nice to see they've changed! Yeah, back then if you didn't find it published in an ad or review, you couldn't find it at all. Computer Shopper was our FRIEND! Oh, someone is digitizing a whole collection of Computer Shopper mags, what a huge project! http://ascii.textfiles.com/archives/5543 Kind of a shame to cut them up for scanning, but at least they'll be preserved, and available for old fogeys who want to brag about how much we used to spend on computer hardware. > > KM> And I have three Optiplex 9010 minis. This is a compact case that > KM> can sit desktop or tower. These came with i7-3770 CPUs. There is > KM> onboard video but they also came with a fairly decent vidcard > KM> (Radeon R7 350X 4GB). 1-PCIe16 1-PCIe4. 4 RAM slots, max 32GB. > KM> These were designed as business units. > > Case is suit-and-tie as opposed to khakis! ...I tend to go for > 'overbuilt' so it will last. I tend to let the parts 'roll downhill": > I'll build myself a brand-new unit for myself, backend -- what was > replaced (eventually) goes to replace the next 'level', that unit > eventually replaces something else.... 'Bottom level' sometimes left as > a spare, sometimes disassembled for parts (extreme example: a Pentium > unit might have a darn good video card which could be used in a > mid-level build). Yeah, if I'm going for an everyday system that I actually spend money on, I want something with future legs. But for the one that sits over yonder and plays Youtube vids all day, whatever works is fine. > KM> I don't know about the mini Optiplex pinout but the PSU is a long > KM> narrow thing like a server PSU. The other drawback is that there > KM> is only room for one 3.5" HD or two 2.5", but it's easy enough to > KM> get to. The larger size Optiplex (there are three sizes, one is > KM> smaller yet) may have a standard PSU and more slots and bays, I > KM> haven't checked. > > Yes, I have an older computer which comes in three 'flavours': the one I > have is a 'CMT' -- Convertible Mini Tower ==> upright or flat. Another > version is a slimline -- suppose nice if room is at a premium but a PITA > to easily swap parts -- daughtercards have to be half-height! I've > forgotten what the third option was. This used to be a common thing because business wanted the options. > > > KM> Well, this is the larger version of the same board: > KM> https://www.newegg.com/p/N82E16813186233 > KM> main difference is having two PCI slots and more SATA ports. > > More is sometimes better, but as Newegg is out of stock doesn't matter! And if I'm going to buy a naked motherboard, it'll be something I can work with. > KM> The other Repurposed NameBrand Core in my Closet is Fireball, who > KM> started life as a Lenovo Thinkstation S30. This is a very good > KM> quality X79 mainboard that takes a midrange i7 or Xeon. 3-PCIe16, > KM> 1-PCIe4, 1-PCI, 8 RAM slots (192GB max capacity, and can use the > KM> cheaper server RAM) and without opening it up to look I think it > KM> has 6 SATA and 4 SAS ports. However I would strongly recommend > KM> sticking to one that comes with its original case, because this > KM> will save you a lot of swearing as you figure out all the > KM> oddities of the front panel and USB connections (one of which > KM> needs an extra jumper shorted to work properly). > > Yup: reminds me of a nice HP (maybe Compaq) case I had gutted and Oh, I forgot, I also have Xorro, formerly Jerry Pournelle's "Regina". Dual Xeon 750MHz, Compaq workstation. Weighs 57 pounds. > updated. Everything was nice until got to the DVD - the original CD > must have had a bracket or something as the DVD had problems with the > opening of the front panel flap, or opened but the try didn't come out > far enough... something. Yeah, that was a big issue with the prebuilt cases. Lots of optical and floppy drives with no faceplate but an integrated slot in the front of the case. Which often meant a weird mount. > > > changed, but at the time turned me off to Dells for personal use: I'm > > not going to buy something if I don't know if I can do the usual > > eventual upgrade. > KM> What sort of upgrade? I looked inside my Dells, saw that they > KM> were already maxed out for CPU, and at a minimal cost I maxed out > KM> the RAM. They are now as upgraded as they get. In this era of > KM> external drives and networked storage, I no longer feel the need > KM> to put six hard drives inside every case. In fact Silver has none > KM> inside the case; they're all in the hotswap bays. :) > > LIS this was twenty-thirty years ago and appears the information is > readily available now. Problem is that little bit of secretative soured > my thinking of them as far as purchasing refurbished. Do think they're > good, just not being able to get the information I needed. As noted > somewhere above, appears that has changed. ...OTOH, now I 'roll down' > my motherboards, etc., so not sure I need to buy an entire unit or > motherboard. Yeah, when you've got plenty it's not an issue. The three Optiplex fell on my head (discards from my sister's office) so might as well use 'em. Part of why Lightfoot got sent back to the Closet -- didn't need a quad-core for misc. duties when I had an i7. > > KM> I may eventually get Fireball a faster CPU (it has whatever Xeon > KM> was available for $20, or was it $5... wasn't very much), as > KM> what's in it is toward the lower end. However it's > KM> performance-equivalent to Silver (i7-4820k) as it is. It already > KM> has 64GB RAM, filched from the server that's being gradually > KM> gutted for parts. > > Upgrading the RAM might be a significant speed increase. RAM plus CPU > might be a Memorex Moment (remember the old ads for the cassette tape > with the guy sitting in front of his speakers and the gale-force wind?!). The ONLY thing that ever reaches above 32GB RAM is Chrome, which is a hog like no other. So 64GB is more than enough. I'd have to actually *shudder* buy 32GB and 16GB sticks to upgrade it to 192GB (it needs to be some weird combo for 8 slots) which presently doesn't seem worthwhile. Tho server RAM is much cheaper than desktop RAM. > Running off a SSD will really do an increase! Yeah, would be helpful. Should buy a bunch of small ones for this sort of thing, but lightly used 2.5" WD Blacks are about $5 each on eBay.... (most have under 10k hours and many under 3k hours). > KM> Would have had to tear out metal. The joys of pop rivets. > > Sort of reminds me a friend's parents' TV I repaired years ago: they'd > sometimes get a 2" wide picture on the CRT (told ya it was years ago!) - > smack it on the side of the cabinet and usually worked again. I bought > the schematic (probably Sam's Photofact), tracked down the problem to a > bad solder joint. So resolder, right? Suuuure: the joint right under a > metal bar and so couldn't quite get my soldering iron in. Was able to > bend or cut the bar (forgot which), do th resoldering - taa-daa! How to solder: First, get hammer... > > Sort of reminds me of a UPS I have. Decent one still. To replace the > > two batteries take the insides out -- and greeted by a cage securely > > holding the batteries inside and the UPS motherboard on top. > > Essentially there is no way to get to the batteries without taking the > > motherboard apart, which sounds like a simple step but is anything but. > KM> Ugh. > > Right. Recall numerous comments on great UPS except for the problem > with replacing batteries. Batteries need to be replaced -- fact. Send > in for replacement -- well, you're either without a UPS during the > repeir or have bought a replacement UPS and so have an extra. Dumb on > the manufacturer's part. Even if someone is afraid to do their own > battery replacement of a normal unit they could bring it in to some > place like BatteriesPlus to have them do the swap, but not with this > unit! I was going to do it for the ones I have but opened one up and said.. uh. Never mind. They have two inside. > > KM> I don't bother doing battery swaps on modern UPSs. The battery is > KM> $89 and the whole durn unit is $99 at Costco and comes with a 2 > KM> year warranty by Costco, which is a lot better than the > KM> replacement battery. > > Hmmm... The RBC17-equivalents I've been getting are around $30 and the > UPSs starting $160. I'm either shopping at the wrong places or > different requirements! APC, evidently. These are Cyberpower, aka "what Costco has". > > KM> I have a G4 of the silver tower era -- it's much less awful, tho > > KM> was highly amused to discover that everything inside, except for > > KM> the mainboard and CPU, is an off the shelf PC part. At some point > > KM> I borrowed the vidcard and have no idea if it got its original > > KM> back, but it works. Also gave it RAM from the PC drawer, and an > > KM> IDE SSD. Performance is now much better. Someone paid $3,999.99 > > KM> for it in 2000... at the time it was performance-equivalent to a > > KM> P2-500 from 1998 that sold for $600. > > Paying for the name are we?! I've upgraded several old computers with > KM> Apparently. :/ It came with all sorts of software (Photoshop > KM> etc.) but far as I can tell it was never used. > > Maybe was being used as a spare. Maybe the company buying them found it > cheaper to buy 500 computers when they only needed 450: I used to work Nope, this was some old guy's personal system, forget where I found that but not corporate. The receipt is still on the HD. > > SSDs and it's amazing how fast they boot and react! I have one with a > > BIOS displaying a copyright of 2009, 6 GB RAM, and it boots in probably > > 15 seconds; Ubuntu 22.04 (Jammy Jellyfish) and runs MythTV v31 quite > > fine. > KM> Yeah, SSD does wonders. If I'm gonna keep using this durn Fedora > KM> it'll need to get one, because it's a good five minutes from > KM> power on to usable desktop. Tho a lot of that is gotta go check > KM> for updates BEFORE it'll do anything else, and updates are so > KM> freakin' slow via Discover that I do it via CLI instead. > > It's because of Fedora!! (I use Ubuntu and there is a bit of friendly > rivalry between distributions. MythTV originally required Ubuntu and > that's why I started with Ubuntu -- no real reason for me to change.) LOL. Yeah, Fedora is not my favorite, but I like it better than Ubuntu. Then again, I like being hit on the head better than Ubuntu. :P~ Just happened to be what was handy when I needed one (the vidcard presently in Fireball won't speak to PCLOS, which runs rings around EVERY other distro). > This may be helpful: https://itsfoss.com/long-shutdown-linux/ > I know you said boot but may have some clues as to what to look for. Nope, doesn't have shutdown issues... the problem is the check for updates, plus it's just slow. > > KM> Picky, picky!! Well, the driver didn't change so why it worked > > KM> ONCE but then never again is a total mystery. Mind you this was > > KM> ONCE and then never again on the SAME DAY with nothing between > > KM> but a restart. Power down did not fix. > > Booting killed it! Your WiFi dongle needed the generic driver which you > > covered up with the new one! (semi-joking) > KM> No, this was onboard wifi.... it's a laptop.... > > Still could be a driver issue. Your restart could have finished > installing an update which broke the WiFi. I (and others) seem to be Wary Puppy is monolithic, there were no updates. The one I have to hand is dated 2012 but this was a couple years before that. > having an issue something in the latest kernel (?) 6.2.0-26-generic > seems to be causing some weird issues with PulseAudio -- my USB headset Oh, PulseAudio, the swearing I've heard... I guess it's better now but it used to break just about anything at random. > killed Firefox (!) -- oddly Firefox now works with the headset unplugged > (there were some strange subdirs that seem to verify), read yesterday > someone's Bluetooth isn't working and seems to be caused by the kernel > update (at least one other person with the Bluetootk issue). Can you > roll back to a previous version of GRUB to see if your WiFi works? Well, if Puppy was still installed on that system... Puppy doesn't work like other linux, it works more like a VM. The whole thing loads into RAM. I'm not sure it even used GRUB. > > > .. You Matter. Until multiply self x speed of light ý, then you > nergy > > KM> > > What happened to my 'squared' character?! > KM> Some people square the circle. You circled the dra-- er, square. > > Who said we wouldn't use algebra when we grew up?! That's geometry, not algebra! Besides, first we'd have to grow up. > .. Wondered why music coming from printer. Apparently paper was jamming. Printers have done that, but nothing like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCCXRerqaJI Best comment: "You know you're doing good in life when your musical instrument has a dedicated emergency stop button" þ RNET 2.10U: ILink: Techware BBS þ Hollywood, Ca þ www.techware2k.com --- QScan/PCB v1.20a / 01-0462 * Origin: ILink: CFBBS | cfbbs.no-ip.com | 856-933-7096 (454:1/1) .