Subj : Lacros To : Ky Moffet From : Barry Martin Date : Wed Aug 23 2023 09:48:00 Hi Ky! > KM> I had a couple of beige-box G3 systems come through the slushpile > KM> when I was the local user grope's hardware dude. I have never > KM> seen so much awful packed into such a small space. Two nominally > KM> identical systems were every which different inside, like Packard > KM> Smell run amok and then through a crusher to make it small. > These were the 'pretty' ones -- the ones that came in blue, orange, > green, etc. I don't recall the vendor (owned a computer repair shop and > did the stores' stuff as a side) menioning that variable insides, but > then possibly not come up just because I was asking for improving my > sales and potentially buying one. KM> Were those the fanless all-in-one? Have personally seen one of KM> those catch fire... So you're indicating they ran a little hot?! Yes, these were all-in- ones; I think the power supply was encased in epoxy; maybe the motherboard -- for heatsink?? Mainly recalling it was a good computer just not a good fit for me as I liked to go inside and improve/upgrade. > Your 'different inside' comment reminded me of why I never bought a Dell > computer when I was buying refurbished computers: I never could get a > detailed answer on what was inside. I don't recall if down to the KM> Um... open it up and look. :) Well the problem would be I would need to buy it and then open it up to see what it was made of. > amount of RAM but do recall seemed I could never find if there were > available expansion slots. Is the video integrated or a daughtercard? > This was around 30 years ago so things probably have KM> I don't know what they did before about 2000, but I've had KM> several desktop Dells fall on my head since then. All you need do KM> is pull on the latch (they have a latched side or top panel, not KM> screws) and take a look. Probably right on the easy-opening: I've got some IBMs/Lenovo's here which do the same: I know one has a single latch-button in the rear of the top cover which inside connects to a Y-shaped brackets which somehow opens latches on sides. Most of the others simply have a button on each side to unlatch. (Maybe the one-button thing was because he broke his arm and couldn't do two buttons at the same time, or was showing off for a machanical award!) KM> What the mainboard offers depends on which form factor and which KM> grade. That was the details I couldn't get (and I'm talking pre-2000 still). The selling info would say "Dell Model 1234-C" but go to look that up and I oculd only get to what options it could come with, so might come with a 240W PSU or a a 750W one or somewhere in-between. Base of 8 GB RAM, but no indication of expansion possibilities nor available slots. Good news: it's well past 2000 and apparently the information is more readily available now. KM> I have two Dells that came in a standard-enough ATX tower and KM> they're basically what you'd build out of the scrap bin. Good. :) KM> Tinker (since died of the capacitor plague) was a P4-3GHz with 1 KM> AGP and 3 PCI slots. Don't offhand recall if it had onboard video KM> but you could add a card. 4 RAM slots. I think the mainboard was KM> actually made by Intel, and the case is an Antec. (It was their KM> most expensive model which came to me because it wouldn't run KM> stable due to overheating. I ditched the Dell shroud, gave it a KM> standard HSF, and it was fine.) Heat can create strange issues! (Tangent) It's been hot and humid here this week -- air temperatures approaching 100ø (might be a degree or two over that this afternoon or tomorrow). I've got two Raspberry Pi's in a closet - both in metal cases with heat sink 'feet' to the motherbaord. One has a fan, one doesn't. (Built/installed at two different times.) The one without the fan started acting up lately: the closet isn't that hot but apparently with lack of circulation... Contactless thermal probe: yup: fanless case about 10ø hotter than the fan case, plus the software report of the processor's temperature was 10-15ø warmer on the fanless one. External fan on both (they're side-by-side) -- slightly cooler and more stable. Swapped out the fanless one with plastic case with built-in fan and new RPi -- easier to swap the whole thing than take apart. Did attach heat sinks to the motherboard. The replacement Pi is running a few degrees cooler than the other Pi (the one in the metal case with fan)! KM> Lightfoot is a Quad-core 3GHz with onboard everything, 3 PCIe and KM> one PCI slot. 4 RAM slots. It came with some random vidcard along KM> with the onboard video. It is the cheap consumer model. KM> Here's the same board: KM> https://www.ebay.com/p/98189154 KM> This is the cheap consumer board, not expected to work hard for a KM> living. Poor thing wouldn't last long here! The eBay site didn't have the specs but took me a couple of clicks to get to a site with specifications. To me that's acceptable' back in the old days (my pre-2000 buy refurbished) I couldn't get the to specs. Nice to see they've changed! KM> Unlike some Dells, these both have standard power pin-outs, so KM> any PSU will work. Lightfoot came to me "dead" and the problem KM> was marginal PSU -- it works, but can't quite make enough output. KM> Replaced with random PSU from the scrap pile and used Lightfoot KM> for several years; only retired to the other room because I had KM> more quad cores than I could use. But it still works fine. For a KM> while the mainboard was in a different case because of reasons KM> I've forgotten, and some other board was in Lightfoot's original KM> case, but now it's all back how it started. Yes, I've done "Swap That Part!" and sometimes forget which part was from where. ..Hey: everything works as desired, so guess leave alone! KM> And I have three Optiplex 9010 minis. This is a compact case that KM> can sit desktop or tower. These came with i7-3770 CPUs. There is KM> onboard video but they also came with a fairly decent vidcard KM> (Radeon R7 350X 4GB). 1-PCIe16 1-PCIe4. 4 RAM slots, max 32GB. KM> These were designed as business units. Case is suit-and-tie as opposed to khakis! ...I tend to go for 'overbuilt' so it will last. I tend to let the parts 'roll downhill": I'll build myself a brand-new unit for myself, backend -- what was replaced (eventually) goes to replace the next 'level', that unit eventually replaces something else.... 'Bottom level' sometimes left as a spare, sometimes disassembled for parts (extreme example: a Pentium unit might have a darn good video card which could be used in a mid-level build). KM> I don't know about the mini Optiplex pinout but the PSU is a long KM> narrow thing like a server PSU. The other drawback is that there KM> is only room for one 3.5" HD or two 2.5", but it's easy enough to KM> get to. The larger size Optiplex (there are three sizes, one is KM> smaller yet) may have a standard PSU and more slots and bays, I KM> haven't checked. Yes, I have an older computer which comes in three 'flavours': the one I have is a 'CMT' -- Convertible Mini Tower ==> upright or flat. Another version is a slimline -- suppose nice if room is at a premium but a PITA to easily swap parts -- daughtercards have to be half-height! I've forgotten what the third option was. KM> Well, this is the larger version of the same board: KM> https://www.newegg.com/p/N82E16813186233 KM> main difference is having two PCI slots and more SATA ports. More is sometimes better, but as Newegg is out of stock doesn't matter! KM> Anyway, I can firmly recommend a used Optiplex as a very KM> inexpensive prebuilt that's often seen as a business discard KM> (this model is commonly available for around $100, complete). KM> They get along with whatever random OSs, have been very stable, KM> and make a good Hackintosh. While the mini can't do much KM> upgrading, they're good enough as an everyday usin' box. Right: I've got some computers around here where their main purpose is to be able to watch recorded TV shows (run MythTV). Those don't need much more than the basics. KM> The other Repurposed NameBrand Core in my Closet is Fireball, who KM> started life as a Lenovo Thinkstation S30. This is a very good KM> quality X79 mainboard that takes a midrange i7 or Xeon. 3-PCIe16, KM> 1-PCIe4, 1-PCI, 8 RAM slots (192GB max capacity, and can use the KM> cheaper server RAM) and without opening it up to look I think it KM> has 6 SATA and 4 SAS ports. However I would strongly recommend KM> sticking to one that comes with its original case, because this KM> will save you a lot of swearing as you figure out all the KM> oddities of the front panel and USB connections (one of which KM> needs an extra jumper shorted to work properly). Yup: reminds me of a nice HP (maybe Compaq) case I had gutted and updated. Everything was nice until got to the DVD - the original CD must have had a bracket or something as the DVD had problems with the opening of the front panel flap, or opened but the try didn't come out far enough... something. > changed, but at the time turned me off to Dells for personal use: I'm > not going to buy something if I don't know if I can do the usual > eventual upgrade. KM> What sort of upgrade? I looked inside my Dells, saw that they KM> were already maxed out for CPU, and at a minimal cost I maxed out KM> the RAM. They are now as upgraded as they get. In this era of KM> external drives and networked storage, I no longer feel the need KM> to put six hard drives inside every case. In fact Silver has none KM> inside the case; they're all in the hotswap bays. :) LIS this was twenty-thirty years ago and appears the information is readily available now. Problem is that little bit of secretative soured my thinking of them as far as purchasing refurbished. Do think they're good, just not being able to get the information I needed. As noted somewhere above, appears that has changed. ...OTOH, now I 'roll down' my motherboards, etc., so not sure I need to buy an entire unit or motherboard. KM> I may eventually get Fireball a faster CPU (it has whatever Xeon KM> was available for $20, or was it $5... wasn't very much), as KM> what's in it is toward the lower end. However it's KM> performance-equivalent to Silver (i7-4820k) as it is. It already KM> has 64GB RAM, filched from the server that's being gradually KM> gutted for parts. Upgrading the RAM might be a significant speed increase. RAM plus CPU might be a Memorex Moment (remember the old ads for the cassette tape with the guy sitting in front of his speakers and the gale-force wind?!). Running off a SSD will really do an increase! KM> The only other namebrand desktop I have now is an HP/Compaq, and KM> the mainboard is an off-the-shelf Asus M2N68-AM with Athlon64 X2 KM> DualCore 4200+ 2.2GHz. Except it's a second, as the BIOS is KM> hardcoded to not accept a faster CPU (otherwise it could be KM> seriously upgraded), and the Athlon64 it came with is not a true KM> x64 CPU. Which explains the 32bit Vista that came on it. Oh well, KM> it runs fine, and saves me the embarrassment of having Vista on a KM> better PC. ;) > Yeah! For what I do I've found I don't need Windows -- expect for this BBS stuff. Running XP off a Virtual Machine just because I haven't gotten around to switching to Ubuntu. ...I'll admit the X10 Home Automation under Windows XP was better but as no longer supported and was having problems sort of a wash. > KM> First Mac I was ever called to repair... fan gave out in the > KM> power supply. Should be an easy replacement, right? Nope... the > KM> PSU was riveted together AND riveted into the case such that you > KM> couldn't get at the rivet heads to pop them loose. Owner ended up > KM> leaving the case propped open instead (probably better > KM> ventilation than the fan provided anyway). > Could sort of see the inaccessible rivets: stuff's assembled > by robots and people, so if the power supply is inserted first nothing > is in the way until start adding the rest of the computer around it. > You'd probably have to disassemble the whole computer to get to those > rivets. KM> Would have had to tear out metal. The joys of pop rivets. Sort of reminds me a friend's parents' TV I repaired years ago: they'd sometimes get a 2" wide picture on the CRT (told ya it was years ago!) - smack it on the side of the cabinet and usually worked again. I bought the schematic (probably Sam's Photofact), tracked down the problem to a bad solder joint. So resolder, right? Suuuure: the joint right under a metal bar and so couldn't quite get my soldering iron in. Was able to bend or cut the bar (forgot which), do th resoldering - taa-daa! > Sort of reminds me of a UPS I have. Decent one still. To replace the > two batteries take the insides out -- and greeted by a cage securely > holding the batteries inside and the UPS motherboard on top. > Essentially there is no way to get to the batteries without taking the > motherboard apart, which sounds like a simple step but is anything but. KM> Ugh. Right. Recall numerous comments on great UPS except for the problem with replacing batteries. Batteries need to be replaced -- fact. Send in for replacement -- well, you're either without a UPS during the repeir or have bought a replacement UPS and so have an extra. Dumb on the manufacturer's part. Even if someone is afraid to do their own battery replacement of a normal unit they could bring it in to some place like BatteriesPlus to have them do the swap, but not with this unit! KM> I don't bother doing battery swaps on modern UPSs. The battery is KM> $89 and the whole durn unit is $99 at Costco and comes with a 2 KM> year warranty by Costco, which is a lot better than the KM> replacement battery. Hmmm... The RBC17-equivalents I've been getting are around $30 and the UPSs starting $160. I'm either shopping at the wrong places or different requirements! > I remember checking on-line and just one person had managed to > disassemble and reassemble without damage to the motherboard. I ended > up leaving the dead batteries inside, routing the battery cables though > a hole and on to two external batteries. ...I'll admit that UPS now has > the fastest battery swap: seconds! KM> HA!!! Not pretty but quick! > KM> I have a G4 of the silver tower era -- it's much less awful, tho > KM> was highly amused to discover that everything inside, except for > KM> the mainboard and CPU, is an off the shelf PC part. At some point > KM> I borrowed the vidcard and have no idea if it got its original > KM> back, but it works. Also gave it RAM from the PC drawer, and an > KM> IDE SSD. Performance is now much better. Someone paid $3,999.99 > KM> for it in 2000... at the time it was performance-equivalent to a > KM> P2-500 from 1998 that sold for $600. > Paying for the name are we?! I've upgraded several old computers with KM> Apparently. :/ It came with all sorts of software (Photoshop KM> etc.) but far as I can tell it was never used. Maybe was being used as a spare. Maybe the company buying them found it cheaper to buy 500 computers when they only needed 450: I used to work for a company which built mainframes, "etc.". They had an Electronics Store where they'd sell off the spare parts. Was cheaper to buy one million 2N2222 and only use most -- they extras were sometimes given away in small quantities -- wasn't worth the cost of the paperwork! (Yes I have a bunch of them and other parts I got for free/super cheap in the workshop in the basement.) > SSDs and it's amazing how fast they boot and react! I have one with a > BIOS displaying a copyright of 2009, 6 GB RAM, and it boots in probably > 15 seconds; Ubuntu 22.04 (Jammy Jellyfish) and runs MythTV v31 quite > fine. KM> Yeah, SSD does wonders. If I'm gonna keep using this durn Fedora KM> it'll need to get one, because it's a good five minutes from KM> power on to usable desktop. Tho a lot of that is gotta go check KM> for updates BEFORE it'll do anything else, and updates are so KM> freakin' slow via Discover that I do it via CLI instead. It's because of Fedora!! (I use Ubuntu and there is a bit of friendly rivalry between distributions. MythTV originally required Ubuntu and that's why I started with Ubuntu -- no real reason for me to change.) This may be helpful: https://itsfoss.com/long-shutdown-linux/ I know you said boot but may have some clues as to what to look for. > > Google, Bing, etc. are your friends! > KM> Not me! Here it's DuckDuckGo, or less often StartPage or Yandex. > Some of it is what one is familiar with, some may be how technical the > looks-ups are..... KM> Or how few *&%#!! sponsored links you want in your way.... uBlock helps, plus I'm pretty good at 'block scanning' and ignoring stuff. > KM> Picky, picky!! Well, the driver didn't change so why it worked > KM> ONCE but then never again is a total mystery. Mind you this was > KM> ONCE and then never again on the SAME DAY with nothing between > KM> but a restart. Power down did not fix. > Booting killed it! Your WiFi dongle needed the generic driver which you > covered up with the new one! (semi-joking) KM> No, this was onboard wifi.... it's a laptop.... Still could be a driver issue. Your restart could have finished installing an update which broke the WiFi. I (and others) seem to be having an issue something in the latest kernel (?) 6.2.0-26-generic seems to be causing some weird issues with PulseAudio -- my USB headset killed Firefox (!) -- oddly Firefox now works with the headset unplugged (there were some strange subdirs that seem to verify), read yesterday someone's Bluetooth isn't working and seems to be caused by the kernel update (at least one other person with the Bluetootk issue). Can you roll back to a previous version of GRUB to see if your WiFi works? > > .. You Matter. Until multiply self x speed of light ý, then you nergy > KM> > What happened to my 'squared' character?! KM> Some people square the circle. You circled the dra-- er, square. Who said we wouldn't use algebra when we grew up?! ¯ ® ¯ BarryMartin3@MyMetronet.NET ® ¯ ® .... 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