Subj : Re: Computer Kits To : Arelor From : Jeff Date : Sun Jan 30 2022 17:05:20 On 30 Jan 2022, Arelor said the following... Ar> > Defending your song from what? People attempting to "cancel" it? I thin Ar> > example may have backfired. Ar> When I speak about defending a tasteless song, I mean justifiying its Ar> existence. Ar> It is pretty common for creative people to face at one time or another Ar> the question "why in Hell have you created *that*?" Ar> The point I was trying to make is that recognizing the artist's right to Ar> create a pile of crap does not mean you have to aprove the pile of crap. Ar> In this context, I recognize the mob's rights to complain and opinate Ar> and cease to consume products because of... reasons... but that has Ar> nothing to do with whether such actions are justified in a given case. To whom is this hypothetical musician defending his right to create a bad song? The musician's fans? Music reviewers? Isn't a bad review just an attempt to discourage people from buying something? Are music reviewers now "cancel culture?" Ar> A random thread in RPGnet was started as a complaint that W40K has a Ar> faction of "Nazi" humans, which may make actual nazies like the game, Ar> and therefore the game was not to be played anymore. I think they have Ar> the right to hold such discussion. I also think this people should seek Ar> help, because you must have a deep mental disorder to suffer because, Ar> somewhere, somehow, a nazi may be enjoying the same game you are Ar> enjoying. It's up to society whether they choose to play this game or not. They can accept the argument or reject it. There is no higher power that can make that decision for them. Ar> Rejoice in cancel culture from the other end of the spectrum, when The Ar> RPG Site Created a list of leftist games to avoid, games of unknown Ar> political stance, and True American Games. It is their right to create Ar> such list. Do you aprove of such list being created? Anyone can create any list they like. Ar> The reason why I am mentioning this is becasue you are defending Ar> haressment campaigns using two main points. The main one is that it is Ar> your right to conduct it, which I don't argue (boraxman might). It is Ar> just that arguing something is your right is not enough to justify it. Why does exercising one's rights, especially those of speech and expression, need justification? Ar> The second point you base your defense on boils down to boicott campaign Ar> being fine, because it is mainly the bad guys getting destroyed. This I Ar> also have a problem with. I didn't say it was only the bad guys getting destroyed. In the 80s, during the Satanic Panic, Proctor & Gamble came under fire for daring to have 13 stars in their logo which was enough evidence for some that the company was dabbling in witchcraft or some such nonsense. It was an actual boycott, and it did impact the company financially, but the people waging the protest did nothing illegal. Sure, the boycotters were "wrong" (according to Proctor & Gamble, who had been using the same logo long before the Satanic Panic, the stars represented the original 13 colonies). And sure they were taken in by what we now know to be an uninformed hysteria, but people can spend their money when, how, and where they wish. I defend that basic freedom. To somehow prevent or punish individual economic decisions is not preserving freedom. Ar> Here is this, even if you assume that conservatives are evil and deserve Ar> total destruction and that progressives are saints, if you look deep Ar> down the issue, it turns out leftist mobs have begun to target leftist Ar> groups for not being leftist enough! True. I think that one's personal economic decisions are protected by freedom of expression as much as speech is. Ar> That's right, I have seen people trying to organize campaigns against Ar> Wizzards of the Coast, widely regarded as a woke org (to the point some Ar> people call them Wizzards of the Woke) because their games are no Ar> pacifist enough or have racist undertones. Mind you, I get complaining Ar> that The Birth of a Nation is racist, but complaining 5E is racist Ar> enough to justify a hate campaign is just insanity. How did this go? Were they able to convince enough people to join them, or did it fizzle out? I ask not because they are considered "woke" but because a successful boycott requires a critical mass of a given society to agree. Without that, there is no boycott. People can think and say whatever they want, and they can attempt to organize boycotts if they want. We have that freedom. Ar> Nosolorol is also a leftist propaganda machine, for the record. All their Ar> non-license, in-house created products, use diversity checklists. They Ar> invariably portray cuts in government spending as the root of problems Ar> in their settings and published adventures. When they got hit so hard by Ar> the cancel campaign that they lost a number of stores, they released an Ar> apology statement (which was ignored by the lynch mob) and added that Ar> they are not a capitalist firm. I am not familiar with Nosolorol beyond what you have told me here. My understanding from you was that the economic pressure campaign against them was due to shady business practices, not political ideology. Sometimes an apology is not enough to atone for past sins. Perhaps they needed to transparently implement control measures to insure that the situation which sparked the boycott never recurred. They needed to regain trust, and failed. Perhaps this was not just a result of the shady business practices, but also of a refusal to rectify those things until they were sued. Perhaps it was not just one bad decision but a series of bad decisions, and there was no way possible to come back from that. Whatever the case, the people boycotting them did nothing wrong. Ar> Therefore, even arguing that lynch campaigns are fine because it is bad Ar> people who is getting destroyed does not hold much water as an argument Ar> (even if you buy the premise, which I don't). I never made the argument that it was only bad people who are getting destroyed. Public opinion can be a very fickle thing indeed. There is an entire industry whose sole reason for existence is to manage public opinion. Can it be used for good? Yes. Can it be used for bad? Yes. It simply is what it is. Jeff. --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32) * Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (21:1/180) .