Subj : SUBJECT: WGA CIRCLES THREAD EXPANDS TO COMPUSERVE FILE: UFO1 To : ALL From : Kurt Snelling Date : Sat Nov 29 2025 07:25:14 SUBJECT: WGA CIRCLES THREAD EXPANDS TO COMPUSERVE FILE: UFO1207 PART 1 CIS THREAD(S) FOLLOWING SEPT. 22 UPLOAD OF CIRCLE.TXT. (Right margin adjusted for viewing utilities and loading by most word processors, text-with-line-breaks.) (As of this date There were 52 downloads of this file from ISSUES/PARANORMAL Lib. 10, uploaded Sept. 22, 1991). ------------------------ #: 45583 S7/Extraterrestrials? 23-Sep-91 21:16:53 Sb: #45328-#Crop circles Fm: Michael McDowell 76207,1247 To: Jim Shaffer Jr. 72750,2335 (X) There is a substantial thread on crop circles which has been uploaded to Issues, Sec 10, Paranormal. It was taken from the Science and Health Forum of the WGA-BBS, a members-only BBS for the Writers Guild of America (television and screenwriters). I was part of this discussion, which develops some surprising but (for me) very satisfying explanations. The messages were uploaded on Compuserve partly in hope that those with greater expertise in the matters that are discussed -- millimeter and sub-millimeter lasers, masers, the physical effects of ionized gases, etc - would provide commentary. There is 1 Reply. #: 17555 S3/General 30-Sep-91 05:47:24 Sb: #17344-Controversial new file Fm: stuart lees 75300,247 To: Trevor Prinn (UK) 100016,2726 I'm inclined to agree with you about the hoaxers - they seem to have been very quiet about their exploits since the initial claims. There are a lot of unanswered questions about the circles, and every explanation only seems to emphasise how little anyone knows about them. I think the explanation for the braiding given in circle.txt was to do with the maser spinning as it was emitted...that doesnt explain the stalks being bent at the same height though, does it. I must admit, I find the maser idea a bit improbable - there have got to be better test sites than Wiltshire - but then the whole thing is improbable. Have you seen any of these circles yourself Trevor? -Stuart #: 45683 S7/Extraterrestrials? 29-Sep-91 00:21:36 Sb: #45675-CIRCLE.TXT Fm: Michael McDowell 76207,1247 To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X) Since the thread that Sabaroff uploaded as CIRCLE.TXT, there have been several more small indications that the thesis may be correct. In NATURE last week is an article called "Measurement of atmospheric wavefront distortion using scattered light from a laser guide-star", which is based on US Dept of Defense work that began secretly in 1981, and was declassified in May of this year. So it is clear that the gov't has indeed been working within the general realm of lasers and the atmos-/meso-sphere. Also it has been discovered that the Dave/Doug hoaxster confession was arranged by a "news agency" that receives mail through its accountants, and does not have a telephone. Dave and Doug were asked point-blank on a talk show if they had ever been employed by a governmental intelligence agency, but they refused to answer, and chose to laugh the question off. (I should point out that I was a participant in the CIRCLE.TXT thread, and that I, too, am anxious for comment or response from those most knowledgeable in the fields under discussion. In point of fact, I would be happier if our conclusions were entirely incorrect, and the circles were the result of hoaxes, or whirlwinds.) #: 45697 S7/Extraterrestrials? 29-Sep-91 23:23:38 Sb: #CIRCLE.TXT Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 To: Michael McDowell 76207,1247 (X) Michael, needless to say I was delighted by the disclosures regarding DOUG/DAVE. We should bring them to L.A. and make them producers. On our WGA BBS, as you know, we also have a News and Current events forum. There were some things in President Bush's recent speech regarding radical reductions in offensive nuclear capabilities, and the centralization of reduced stockpiles, *and the diversion of large portions of the spared budget to B2 and SDI research* which I found startling, to say the least. Since much of our CIRCLE.TXT thread attributes (some) of the crop formations (calling them simply "circles" now seems simplistic) to SDI connected maser/laser experiments, some things make more sense. The press has tended to discredit the concept of SDI as do most scientists, yet if we call it EARTH WARS instead of STAR WARS it makes more sense. Bush called for retention of retaliatory systems, such as submarine based weapons, and the clustering of fixed site silos - reduced to single warhead missiles. Admirable, but inconceivable unless we had something else to back it up. A missile's greatest enemy is Electromagnetic Pulse Effect (EMP), something that microwave energy generates in enormous quantities. I suspect when we talk about "hardening" silos (or used to), the hardening referred to EMP, not structural integrity. This would suggest another credible function for space borne maser technology - and submarines would be shielded and cloaked from it. Am I looking too hard for a positive side to all this...? Bob There is 1 Reply. #: 45698 S7/Extraterrestrials? 30-Sep-91 01:58:08 Sb: #45697-#CIRCLE.TXT Fm: tom genereaux 76703,4265 To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X) You've got it a bit wrong. EMP is *not* produced by microwave emission. You can induce a phenomena that is similiar, but much reduced in magnitude. This assumes that you have lots of rust, aluminium oxide, and conductors of a wavelength appropriate to the frequency. Otherwise it all gets dissipated as heat. Not very much heat, at that. Now, hardening *did* factor in EMP, but it also factored in blast effect, radiation hardness, and so on. EMP is by necessity a low frequency phenomenon - on the order of a few 10's of hertz at best - and mostly a DC voltage field at that. The EMP test sites are the worlds largest ELF generators. (ELF = Extremely Low Frequency - 10khz and below.) Tom G. There is 1 Reply. #: 45702 S7/Extraterrestrials? 30-Sep-91 06:16:37 Sb: #45698-#CIRCLE.TXT Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 To: tom genereaux 76703,4265 (X) Tom, thanks for the clarification regarding the microwave/EMP relationship. It's equally useful to know that our logical processes have led us to an incorrect association, as it is to be confirmed. Perhaps more so, and your obvious expertise is much appreciated. We want to get it right. Responses like yours are welcome because their corrections lead to rethought questions. Could a very strong maser in any way affect the guidance and/or control systems of a missile as it leaves it's silo? And, if you know, what range of frequencies are considered to fall within the spectrum known as "microwave?" It is also my understanding that a nuclear detonation above ground would itself generate enough particle energy to affect communications and other electronic systems, and that such an event occured in the Pacific some years ago and wasn't much publicized. Are you aware of (that you can discuss) any spectra of radiation other than light or "microwave" which can be generated as coherent energy in a way similar to the maser/laser technology? Bob #: 45716 S7/Extraterrestrials? 30-Sep-91 17:35:59 Sb: #circle.txt Fm: JON BRUNSON 76477,1312 To: 71251,2445 (X) Bob, One thing that would be of great interest regarding SDI hypothesis would be the aspect of the ellipses (you as well as others noted that they are not circles). If beams struck from geosynchonous orbit, they would all have the same aspect - assuming the same platform. However, I don't know that SDI satellites would be geosynchronous. Certainly kinetic devices wouldn't be put out that far because of transit time. Beam weapons would have to deal with spread and hence attenuation over that distance. Be that as it may, the aspect ratio and orientation would be very interesting. Of course, I am assuming our jokers are using circular 'stencils'. If the originating platform is deliberately firing ellipses, all bets are off. Jon Brunson 76477,1312 There is 1 Reply. #: 45717 S7/Extraterrestrials? 30-Sep-91 17:48:08 Sb: #CIRCLE.TXT Fm: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576 To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X) Having just finished reading the recently uploaded CIRCLE.TXT discussion, I wanted to commend you (as the leading provocateur of the discussion) for what is by far the most innovative and thoughtful analysis of the phenomena I have yet encountered. Never before came across a BBS thread that made for such a compelling read! Not being of a conspiratorial bent, I am struggling mightily with your hypothesis that our defense establishment (or a small "black area" therein) would deliberately utilize the ancient circle legends of Wiltshire (a subject of rather remarkable obscurity until recently!) to disguise the ground effect of their maser/laser (or whatever) SDI tests. If you are correct that these are artifacts of SDI testing, would it not be safe to assume that *every* possible safeguard would be taken to insure the secrecy of the results? If so, it would seemingly require monumental courage and presumptiousness for an SDI project manager to conclude that the best of all possible testing alternatives would be a public display on the plains of Wiltshire. Would that our defense bureaucrats had that kind of imagination and guts! Another point; you mentioned that the technology necessary to create these patterns was, in part at least, probably made possible through the development of relatively high temperature superconducters. However, did not the circle phenomena develop in the early 80's, before these breakthroughs occurred? Seems to me that the *real* technological breakthrough was made at the time the first circles were created in the early 80's. The developments in the circle patterns since the early days reflect a relatively slow and plodding developmental pace (fairly modest variations on a theme) considering the magnitude of the original breakthrough (that would allow a circle to be created in the first place. [continued in the reply] There are 2 Replies. #: 45718 S7/Extraterrestrials? 30-Sep-91 17:48:12 Sb: #45717-#CIRCLE.TXT Fm: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576 To: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576 (X) [continued] Anyway, keep up the good work in prodding people to do some analytical thinking about one of the more intriguing mysteries of our time. There is 1 Reply. #: 45726 S7/Extraterrestrials? 30-Sep-91 20:38:46 Sb: #45718-CIRCLE.TXT Fm: Michael McDowell 76207,1247 To: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576 (X) In the most recent issue of Nature is an article based on research and testing done by the Dept of Defense, starting in 1981, of ground to air laser imaging. As I make out, they were creating pin-points -- for use as artificial star- guides -- at a height of ten miles. This is spectacular lack of beam attenuation. The authors note that this work has continued since 1981, but was de-classified (to a degree) in May of this year. So we know now that related work was going on, in the time frame under discussion. #: 45727 S7/Extraterrestrials? 30-Sep-91 23:39:06 Sb: #45702-#CIRCLE.TXT Fm: tom genereaux 76703,4265 To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X) I should give some clarifications to my answer, first of all - it was rather late, and I was briefer in my reply than I meant to be. Large, (by large I mean gigawatts) transmitters can affect the guidance system of a missile by means of electromagnetic coupling. You can see this effect in a more limited fashion (and with a slightly different pathway) in your television set, when the next door ham beams a kilowatt down your TV antenna. Most of the energy is dissipated as heat in the receiving antenna, but a couple of volts of RF will still be coupled into the set. A simple filter will prevent this from being a problem - the energy gets dissipated as heat in the filter. Heating effects of a magnitude to severly disrupt a missile are by no means certain. You *can* potentially swamp a sensor with the coupled energy. Simple screening would take care of that. We do it all of the time. (Look at the door of your microwave oven for an example.) The most promising beam weapons are the neutral particle beam and the laser - either X-Ray, IR, or gamma. No one has produced a gamma ray laser yet, and we don't have a clue about how to do it, but it *is* theoretically possible. Masers are non-starters - they're bloody fussy beasts. You could use them in theory, but not in practice. The test you are refering to is Dominic Starfish Prime. This test was designed to test the effects of high-altitude burst on radio communications and radar, and not coincidentally, to test the long range effects of EMP. These effects were first noticed during a then secret three-shot high altitude test in the South Atlantic - the Argus series - sometime in 1958. Three more high-altitude bursts took place in the Dominic series, but only one had sufficient size to have anything more than negligble effect. The earliest reference in the open literature that I have is in the 1964 edition of "The Effects of Nuclear Weapons". By the Third edition < Cont'd > There are 2 Replies. #: 45728 S7/Extraterrestrials? 30-Sep-91 23:41:13 Sb: #45716-#circle.txt Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 To: JON BRUNSON 76477,1312 (X) Jon, the ellipses might be accounted for either by very slight drift of the stationary beam source, or by angle of incidence if it were slightly off a perpendicular with the target below. Considering the physical dimensions of most of the formations, and presuming a width of less than a centimeter for the point of emission, that's well within the paramaters of experiments already conducted here. From 25,000 miles - the altitude of a geosynchronous orbiter, the width of the formations is not contra-indicated by published test results *in the atmosphere.*. From overhead, the beam would have to penetrate a desnsity unit of only one Atmosphere - 14.7 lbs/sq. inch. Surface experiments produce less spread than we're seeing, over ground distances with an "equivalence" of ten or more atmospheres. Such experiments have been done at an aerospace facility in the hills of Malibu, quite close to where I live. The stated purpose was to accurately place a stationary spot on terrain MANY miles away, for studies of tiny increments of earth movement - ostensibly for earthquake detection study. As a pilot, I have made many approaches into the smog of Los Angeles. From overhead, the ground can be clearly seen, but when descending into the layer at a normal rate of descent, one is looking forward into it edgewise. Visibility sometimes drops from unlimited (downward) to less than a 1/4 mile edgewise. That's one reason an instrument rating is so important here. As to attenuation, we can already use kinetic devices to cut plate steel. I don't find it inconceivable that given the very high emission power possible, that we would still receive enough energy over that distance, and relatively narrow spread (1 cm. < 100 yards) to produce an effect. Also, geosynchronicity would be a must for precision, and prehaps safety. (*more on stencils in reply*) Bob. There is 1 Reply. #: 45729 S7/Extraterrestrials? 30-Sep-91 23:41:28 Sb: #45717-#CIRCLE.TXT Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 To: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576 (X) Erik, your encouraging and complimentary response to CIRCLE.TXT is received with delight by all involved. Thanks! We're all professional writers, and have decided to place you in our Wills. We can be a vain lot... Re the conspiratorial aspect of the whole thing, I think it was the true purpose of STAR wars in the first place. Too many scientists debunked it in open hearings, while closed- door appropriations committees kept pouring classified money into it for me to believe it wasn't something "other" from the outset. As to the secrecy of the results, the likelihood was that the results might have been unpredictably detectable by the spy satellites of other countries (this started many years before Gorbachev). By placing the formations in a location (I'm also presuming an Anglo- American co-venture) which would guarantee obfuscation by the metaphysical history of the location, and simulating it, the story stayed on the occult book shelves for years. "It's an old story...". The perfect confounder for a new story. And so the CCCS book confirms. Great photos, not one word about the possibility of artifacts of human technology. Obviously, it worked. It's taken over ten years to get to this discussion. This kind of planning would have taken place among a very few at the top - certainly beyond the "need-to-know" of a project manager. By that I mean Joint Chiefs, the NSA, CIA, Executive branch. The shuttle pilots who may have deployed the orbiter(s) need not have known their function - only where to put them. As for the superconductor breakthroughs, "relatively high" temperatures are still on an order of -200 deg. C, making large scale experiments a lot more practical in the ambient conditions of space. In the CCCS book, the increasing precision and sophistication of the formations over the years indicates progressive refinement of the technology. [more in reply] #: 45730 S7/Extraterrestrials? 30-Sep-91 23:53:39 Sb: #45727-CIRCLE.TXT Fm: tom genereaux 76703,4265 To: tom genereaux 76703,4265 (X) the effect is discussed in depth. I do remember that there was discussion of the effect at the time of the tests - Life magazine had a story on it, and the West Coast and Oahu papers also ran stories. The effect is discussed in "Fundamentals Of Naval Weapons Systems", and the various electronic packaging manuals have sections on it. Like a lot of things, the information was out in the open, but you had to know where to look. (Also, those of us working on such things took them for granted - "Hey, that's *old* news. ). EMP, BTW, is *only* apparent at a distance in high- altitude bursts. Low altitude bursts dissipate the pulse through ground coupling within a few 10's of miles. (The distance also has a heck of a lot to do with the size of the device. The higher yield the device, the more powerful the EMP). Tom G. #: 17563 S3/General 30-Sep-91 08:09:29 Sb: #17529-Controversial new file Fm: Allen Cobb [PRC] 72451,1764 To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 Bob, Your comments on the lunar laser detection experiment were interesting. I had been under the impression that the purpose of the experiment was to validate the accuracy of lunar ranging in general. In any case, DETECTION of a laser's reflection off the moon is a far cry from IMAGING a doughnut shape on the ground, with sharp edges, isn't it? ac #: 17675 S3/General 01-Oct-91 03:03:16 Sb: #17563-Controversial new file Fm: Michael McDowell 76207,1247 To: Allen Cobb [PRC] 72451,1764 This week's NATURE reports work supported by the US Dept of Defense, starting in 1981, to focus a ground-based laser to a pin-point ten miles above the surface of the earth. (This to emulate a star's light, for focussing telescopes.) The work was secret for ten years, and was partially de- classified in May of this year. Lasers can jiggle single atoms about; even from a great height, a football field is a pretty large canvas, in comparison. #: 17668 S3/General 01-Oct-91 01:31:16 Sb: Controversial new file Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 To: Allen Cobb [PRC] 72451,1764 Allen, to the best of my knowledge, the lunar laser detections experiments had no (disclosed) relationship to SDI. That its success may have confirmed for some the possibilities, and thus helped to launch it, is unknowable (yet). That was back in the early '70's. The reflectors left on the moon were formed to compensate for spreading over that great distance, and in that respect resembled extremely long focal-length reflectors not unlike telescope mirrors. What was ascertained was that a laser could be aimed from earth, reach the moon adequately collimated to access the reflector, and return through the atmosphere and be seen. I never meant to infer that this related directly to crop imaging from a much more advanced technology than that, from a source only 25,000 miles away, as opposed to the earth-moon round trip of 476,000 miles. The example was cited to demonstrate the length of time research has been going on. Essentially, CIRCLE.TXT explores the idea that masers/lasers/whatevers, of power outputs and collimating efficiencies using enhanced superconductive technologies not yet stated, are able to create artifactual images through a stencil, from a geosynchronous orbiter(s), much like a "cookie cutter." Bob There is 1 Reply. #: 45731 S7/Extraterrestrials? 01-Oct-91 01:07:11 Sb: #45727-CIRCLE.TXT Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 To: tom genereaux 76703,4265 (X) Tom, thanks for the generous addendum to your prior on EMP. (I got the reply, too). Most of the publicity on EMP I've seen had to do with gamma effects - to with a random cosmic ray momentarily zapping a logic gate in some bank's computer, resulting in a billing error. I know it's more general than that, and I appreciate the organization you offered. I was especially struck by your mention of other potential beam scenarios such as X-Ray and IR. I'd entertained the notion of the latter, but left it out of the discussion because of the many crop effects that occured while under the surveillance of thermographic sensors and light amplifiers. All that was seen was new circles in the morning. I'd have presumed that thermography would have shown an IR effect, though it may be a mistake to presume anything at this point. I was struck by your inference that gamma ray lasers have at least been pondered, and may be theoretically possible. I'll file that one. I'd also like to add what a pleasure it is getting credible information from one actively involved in related science. My late father (a ham, K6JW) was a senior scientist on Surveyor, at Hughes. He degugged the communications system, hired based on his invention of a pulse-modulated AM transmitter which reached (in 1957-8) the MARS station, KC4USA, at McMurdo Sound using 20 watts input to final, from Philadelphia. They didn't believe him, because his signal strength was below noise level, but his intelligibility was higher. I know what you mean about *old* news. When Surveyor landed, he shrugged, knowing Apollo was only a matter of time, and was already on his way to Mars. He was "on" Voyager, and made it out of the Solar System. Thanks again for the fascinating information. Bob #: 45732 S7/Extraterrestrials? 01-Oct-91 01:07:25 Sb: #45728-circle.txt Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X) (contined) I'm presuming circular stencils, Jon. What makes pursuit of the "cookie cutter" thread so compelling - whatever the exact energy source - is the later, ever increasing appearance of not just circles, but circles connected by straight lined, in turn bisected at right angles, with parallel liner formations alongside: and all perfectly aligned with the natural furrows in the fields. Drift might not be detectable in rectilinear formations in the form of obvious distortion, as in a circle/ellipse effect. They also make a compelling argument for the stencil theory. In leafing through page after page of these things, one sees the compound structures with linear elelents starting to proliferate [not to mention the one called "the insect" which looks exactly like an Anasazi petroglyph (Arizona) I have in a Smithsonian catalogue of such things, printed in the 1870's]. But the most striking resmblance of the compound circle/line structures is their resemblance to *sighting reticules.* I understand that crop circle events are proliferating elsewehere in the world. It's interesting to speculate if the preliminary sighting, collimating, and power control systems done in Wiltshire have reached a point where it is now necessary to move on to other areas. If the mythology of Britain were the first cover, recent documentaries on UFO's in S.E. British airbases ("Unexplained Mysteries") which included active duty personnel - hitherto inconceivable - might not mean that the Military is priming a new confounder. "Give it to the UFOlogists now..." Bob #: 45733 S7/Extraterrestrials? 01-Oct-91 01:07:39 Sb: #45729-CIRCLE.TXT Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X) (contined) Erik, I wanted to comment on the relative obscurity of the archeology of the Plains of Wiltshire. Albert Watkins work on the ley lines, from the 20's, and the more "academically accepted" work of such scientists as Alexander Thom, Gerald Hawkins, and others - are widely published and seriously studied here. Especially since the new respectability of "ArcheoAstronomy," and its adoption and accreditation by a number of pretty "straight" asronomers. Even the late nobel laureate, Richard Feynman was interested. There are hundreds of books in print on the subject. Just as "space travel" was relegated to the science fiction book shelves until Neil Armstrong made the discussion respectable by "doing it," so it was with the standing stones and circular mounds and more sophisticated structures such as Stonehenge, Men Antol, Maes Howe (Orkneys), Avebury, Glastonbury, and the demonstration (as opposed to theory), that alignments had geodetic and astronomical significance. In Chaco Canyon, Arizona, for example, these same researchers are now discovering the same functions in hitherto obscure structures and enigmatic petroglyphs. There is considerable interest. One can only imagine the effect in England itself, with writers such as Jon Michel and others popularizing the subject over the year - with Ley Line Societies debating in print... with a sub rosa national obsession over the truly fascinating reality of what has been in place for over 4000 years... What a fabulous cover! It makes the rules of evidence unmanageable. Bob #: 45751 S7/Extraterrestrials? 01-Oct-91 22:16:40 Sb: #circle.txt Fm: JON BRUNSON 76477,1312 To: 71251,2445 (X) Bob, My only point about the elliptical shape was that if you fire a circle the image is elliptical due to the angle of incidence and curvature of the earth. If the aspect and orientation were consistent, it would be a pretty strong piece of evidence for a stationary platform in space. Another aspect of the phenomenon to consider is how the stalks fall. Not only do they swirl both clockwise and counter, they also have been known to fall all in the same direction. In one circle, there was a small central swirl and the stalks in each quadrant fell in the same direction at right angles to those in adjacent quadrants. In still other cases, they all fell directly centrifugally. These and other idiosyncratic (for want of a better word) behaviors make SDI a less than viable hypothesis. Some have used the term conspiracy to characterize your conjecture. I don't see that has the right connotation for one or two governments testing weapons systems. That is what they are supposed to do. I love the mindset demonstrated by Erik when he suggested defense bureaucrats lack imagination and guts. Military Intelligence is not an oxymoron as the joke goes. Military types may have different goals than the average civilian type and use all sorts of means to gain them, and they would just as soon have you underestimate their abilities. It makes their job easier. Jon Brunson There are 3 Replies. #: 45753 S7/Extraterrestrials? 02-Oct-91 04:20:49 Sb: #45751-circle.txt Fm: Michael McDowell 76207,1247 To: JON BRUNSON 76477,1312 There has been a fair amount of work done on the circles, hoping to explain them by freak weather conditions and so forth. In the published papers, the scientists say that the patterns could be formed by ionized cushions of air. In fact part of their problem was to figure out how even anomalous weather patterns could be configured to do the same thing that lasers would do in creating the cushions and the ionized atmosphere. The Japanese scientist who evidently did reproduce the strange patterns did so using a laser over (I forget which) metallic or semi-metallic substance. This is all talked about in circle.txt. What should be emphasized is that the lasers (if they exist) are not cutting the crops directly (as lasers are wont to do in movies about bank heists); they are ionizing the atmosphere, creating a "microclimate", and it is this that bends the stalks in a certain way according to the dynamics of the air pocket, that creates a sporadic light show, and brings reports of electromagnetic disturbances. #: 45754 S7/Extraterrestrials? 02-Oct-91 06:01:55 Sb: #45751-circle.txt Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 To: JON BRUNSON 76477,1312 Thanks for the clarification of your question regarding "elliptical," Jon. It actually makes an answer to the question simpler to state. If I were conducting what I believe to be preliminary refinements - targeting, stability, energy emission control, beam spread... I would feel silly (as I sort of do) for not having also factored in the curvature of the earth as a distorting element. Yes, that could certainly be a factor, except that it would be a radial effect, resulting in a slightly wider circle. Angle of incidence is another story, but I would hope that great effort would go into acheiving a perfect vertical. That still leaves drift, and not very much at that. I find it hard to imagine a stationary satellite at 25,000 miles which would be *perfectly* stationary, and all things considered, the degree of ellipticality (?) is small enough to suggest relatively great stability. The obvious way to achieve this is through the gyroscopic effects (precession- compensated) of rapid spin. It's admittedly a leap to the notion that the spinning beam (behind a contra-rotating stencil) might in some way cause the patterns of layover, but we are still after all, in the brainstorming stage and don't claim to have all the answers. I'm sure there are many secrets out there. I've also seen pictures of the really radical patterns you mention. I don't have the answer to all the specifics, but I don't think the remaining enigmas are enough to (yet) dismiss the overall scenarios. We have a superstructure that's conceivable. We may be a long way from dotting the "i"'s. From what I know of how secrets are kept, we all may be startled by the effects manifested by the technology itself. Conspiracy and underestimated abilities ahead. #: 45755 S7/Extraterrestrials? 02-Oct-91 06:02:11 Sb: #45751-circle.txt Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 To: JON BRUNSON 76477,1312 I think that the term "conspiracy" in this context is a _non sequitur_. I've been involved enough in serious research into assassination conspiracy to know that the term can be a red herring. With few exceptions I've found "lone assassin" conclusions to be manifestations of the collective denial of something that's "too bad to be true," and therefore processed by the brain into invisibility, to keep anxiety threshholds tenable. As the denial begins to weaken there is perceived a second conspiracy to conceal the first conspiracy, when in fact the second conspiracy is often the clinical denial of the first one, seen in retrospect. I find hope in that... Maybe truth is immortal after all. It just takes getting used to. "Conspiracy" connotes a clinical mindest suggestive of paranoia, always a convenience when needed. I agree, Jon, that the testing of weapons can require a great deal of coordination among the participants to hide the pattern produced if the elements are allowed to connect. The security structure of the Manhattan Project is a classic example. I also enjoyed Erik's citation of "imagination and guts." Whoever put this number together had to be amply endowed with both. I even see a sense of humor at work in the "Arizona petroglyph." So where does conspiracy end an symbiosis leave off. Take the lowly termite. Each termite is a conspiracy all its own, its G.I. tract being a safe house for a protozoa, complete with room and board. The termite grinds up the wood like a food processor so the protozoa (a dinoflagellate, I think) can ingest it, and the termite assimilates the nutrient wastes and byproducts that result. Top level Military and industrial security is something else. Bob. #: 45760 S7/Extraterrestrials? 02-Oct-91 18:26:44 Sb: CIRCLE.txt Fm: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576 To: JON BRUNSON 76477,1312 Joe, it was not my intention to take impugn any aspect of the military intelligence community. However, I see how my remark might have left such an impression. The point I was making was this; in order to give credence to the SDI theory being discussed here, one has to imbue SDI project managers with a combination of characteristics (knowledge of group psychology, history, a LARGE dose of chutzpah, just to name a few) that, to my knowledge (admittedly not comprehensive) have not been similarly demonstrated in other projects. Unless I missed it, I have yet to see any discussion regarding why all the circles are formed at night. Is it possible that sunlight interferes with the process, or does selection of Wiltshire as a proving ground require after dark testing in order to avoid the possibility that the cicrle formation will be directly witnessed? If the latter, then the selection of this location would certainly seem to impose a significant handicap to R&D activities unless you assume (rather unlikely I would think) that direct daylight observation of the process adds nothing significant to the testing. There is 1 Reply. #: 45795 S7/Extraterrestrials? 03-Oct-91 21:36:32 Sb: #45583-Crop circles Fm: Jim Shaffer Jr. 72750,2335 To: Michael McDowell 76207,1247 I downloaded that file and I found it interesting. You're right -- there are a lot of ideas discussed there that don't show up elsewhere for some reason. #: 45798 S7/Extraterrestrials? 04-Oct-91 00:37:38 Sb: #45795-Crop circles Fm: Michael McDowell 76207,1247 To: Jim Shaffer Jr. 72750,2335 I'm glad you read it. Really, the only thing that I'm trying to push is a search for the truth -- wherever that leads. I've no emotional investment in one solution over another -- or rather the one solution I'm wedded to is the >right< one. What was presented in that thread -- and what information has been garnered since that thread -- still suggest that the crop circles are, in large measure, the result of military/intelligence laser/maser testing from geosynchronous satellites in place over Britain. The presence of experts in allied fields is the reason for pushing the matter here. I hope others will take down the thread and read it through. #: 45823 S7/Extraterrestrials? 04-Oct-91 20:22:41 Sb: #CIRCLE.txt Fm: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576 To: Michael McDowell 76207,1247 (X) >>What was presented in that thread -- and what information has been garnered since that thread -- still suggest that the crop circles are, in large measure, the result of military/intelligence laser/maser testing from geosynchronous satellites in place over Britain.<< It strikes me that the evidence presented in CIRCLE.txt and subsequent discussions can, at best, be described as suggesting only that SDI testing is a theory that appears to address more aspects of the phenomena than ony other. Considering the wackiness of most of the other theories, that's not really saying much. Interesting for sure, but a whole lot of holes yet to be filled! There is 1 Reply. #: 45833 S7/Extraterrestrials? 05-Oct-91 03:58:42 Sb: #45823-CIRCLE.txt Fm: Michael McDowell 76207,1247 To: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576 Absolutely. It is only a suggestion. But I hear that the two men who confessed were asked point blank on a television interview if they had ever been employed by an intelligence organization, and they didn't give a straight answer. That, also, the "news organization" which controls them and their story doesn't not actually have a telephone number, and its only address is through its accounting firm. That the USDoD releases the information that it has been working with ground-to-air laser focussing systems since 1981. That for the first time the USDoD allowed members of the military to appear on camera to talk about UFOs, and actually played up the possibility that there are strange things happening in the skies over south-Eastern England. The announcement last week that the DoD was going to be putting its own smaller satellites into orbit, and not rely on NASA, which is too public and too unreliable. And so on. Such scattered notes fit and enhance one scenario, and they do not fit any other. It's a far too complicated matter for anyone to claim certainty. But I don't go back on my simple point: since the thread has ended, it has grown easier to accept this explanation, and only more difficult to accept any other. (And in any case, it's not half so tortured as what Astrophysicists are having to do to shore up red-shift as purely a cosmological factor, and directly and only related to distance.) #: 45837 S7/Extraterrestrials? 05-Oct-91 06:11:07 Sb: CIRCLE.txt Fm: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576 To: Michael McDowell 76207,1247 If you start with the assumption that all big secrets ultimately get leaked, (and the parameters of this one make it a great candidate for ultimate "leaking"), then the DoD is setting itself up for some bigtime embarrasment down the road. If they are smart enough to pull this off, they are certainly smart enough to recognize that it won't be a secret forever. How will they explain the duplicity? or are you suggesting that they really don't care? #: 45844 S7/Extraterrestrials? 05-Oct-91 07:59:08 Sb: CIRCLE.txt Fm: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576 To: Michael McDowell 76207,1247 (X) >>But I don't go back on my simple point: since the thread has ended, it has grown easier to accept this explanation, and only more difficult to accept any other.<< In reading my prior message I realized I didn't address this comment. Just wanted you to know that I agree totally with this statement. Unfortunately, the *competing* theories, being so relatively lightweight, provide a very poor benchmark against which to make comparisons. #: 45849 S7/Extraterrestrials? 05-Oct-91 10:11:27 Sb: CIRCLE.TXT Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 To: Eric Albrekston 70312,3576 (X) Erik, thanks for permission to send this private exchange we had when I responded to your #45760 to Jon Brunson regarding secrecy and day/night testing, and assorted items. Before I became a freelance writer in the entertainment industry (including credits in "Star Trek: Both Generations," and also a lot of Earth stuff) I worked in a division of RAND, in Santa Monica, as a Dept. Editor, and was very involved in who got to know what. The SDI stuff we're brainstorming would have been strictly Top Secret (I only held Secret), and on an ironclad "need-to-know" basis. Most of the people working on it would have no idea of the nature of the goal - only the component(s) in which they were involved - much like during the development of the A- bomb. Project Managers wouldn't have come under this category. SDI may be among the most sensitive projects since then, if it is in fact a disinforming title. The group psychology and history could very well have come from a Think Tank such as RAND, the product of a very few specialists under NSA level security. That's heavy duty *tight.* The chutzpah was in the funding of it, as it was publicly described as something which couldn't work. And now, in Bush's latest speeches on disarmament, he openly speaks of rediverting some of the newly freed funds to SDI. That is clearly chutzpah. There are other, even more cockamamey projects that must have required even more of the same in the selling. Anyway, on to night/day testing. #: 45852 S7/Extraterrestrials? 05-Oct-91 10:21:21 Sb: #CIRCLE.TXT Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X) You noted something which hasn't been discussed and should have been - the day versus night testing. Accuracy over the 25,000 mile distance we're talking about would be unpredictable altered by a daytime sky - if only by the gravitational effects of the sun in bending light and other radiations - the demonstration of which was one of the early supports for Relativity. Another argument for night testing is the diminished chance of a field being occupied at the time of exposure. Another is that if laser-dot hot spots are used for sighting and alignment, these would be much more effective at night. Yet another is that R&D would be concerned mainly with the effect, not the process. Night would give cover for an effect that may take hours to complete. It would also make the recording of sonic effects easier. And, a big unknown is the time lag between exposure and effect, if any. As for R&D activities in general, I think we can presume that the formation process itself would have been thoroughly studied in smaller scales, as indicated by the various experiments cited my Michael McDowell in other messages. Your questions were good ones. Bob #: 45853 S7/Extraterrestrials? 05-Oct-91 10:21:36 Sb: CIRCLE.TXT Fm: Eric Albrekston 70312,3576 To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X) Bob, your exposure to the people involved in these types of projects clearly gives your opinion some credibility regarding their capability to both invent and successfully execute something this remarkable. I can only defer to your judgement in that regard. Yet.......10 years is an awfully long time for our government to keep anything truly secret. Especially something that would have so many of its participants quietly smirking at the great joke they were playing on the world press. You have have referred to the Manhattan Project several times and I am aware of the remarkable secrecy that was enforced. But times have changed dramatically since then and I suspect that similar efforts today would be considerably less successful. >>Accuracy over the 25,000 mile distance we're talking about would be unpredictably altered by a daytime sky - if only by the gravitational effects of the sun in bending light and other radiations<< Some of your other speculations for night circle formations are persuasive, but this one needs a li SEEN-BY: 124/5016 153/757 154/30 203/0 221/0 240/1120 5832 263/1 280/464 SEEN-BY: 280/5003 5006 292/854 8125 301/1 341/66 234 396/45 423/120 SEEN-BY: 460/58 633/280 712/848 770/1 5020/400 .