Subj : Re: Do any stores still sell floppy disks? To : All From : ham789@netzero.net Date : Thu Jan 31 2019 19:16:21 Path: eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org !.POSTED!not-for-mail From: mike Newsgroups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.general Subject: Re: Do any stores still sell floppy disks? Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2017 13:53:57 -0700 Organization: A noiseless patient Spider Lines: 145 Message-ID: References: <1j8eptyfoo7to.dlg@v.nguard.lh> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2017 20:55:07 -0000 (UTC) Injection-Info: reader02.eternal-september.org; posting-host="17e2b7c8adfd195badd424200223fd45"; logging-data="32221"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1+9HFflgmoKegiPhQoHhImr" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130509 Thunderbird/17.0.6 In-Reply-To: Cancel-Lock: sha1:RE4wZrd2LY1dKreQQCjEt92Erss= Xref: news.eternal-september.org microsoft.public.windowsxp.general:134415 On 11/4/2017 11:53 AM, VanguardLH wrote: > J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote: > >> VanguardLH WROTE: >> >>> james wrote: >>> >>>> My bootable DOS floppy disk died. I had not used it in several years, >>>> but wanted to boot up with the floppy to install a new harddrive on an >>>> old Windows 98 machine, with no CD drive. >>>> >>>> I have looked in several stores. None sell them anymore. >>>> >>>> I found a 5pack on ebay, for $5 and bought them. That was the cheapest I >>>> found for NEW ones. Some were ridiculously priced, and there were some >>>> used ones selling cheap, and saying "no returns" "untested", etc. I'll >>>> pass on those!!! >>>> >>>> Then there was someone selling 20 dead 5.25 inch floppies for around >>>> $29, plus $10 shipping. It said "For Art Projects".... (Apparently his >>>> garbage can is full, and he really thinks he will find a sucker).... >>>> >>>> Someone even had some 8" floppies. I heard of them, but never saw them. >>>> That's got to be very old. >>>> >>>> Anyhow, I am just curious if anyone has seen any floppies in any stores >>>> lately. >>>> >>>> Just curious, how much data did those 8" floppies hold? I have a >>>> feeling they held less than the 360K 5.25 Inch..... >>> >>> So it is top secret that only you know what size floppy you want. >>> Could be 3.5", 5.25", or 8". You only mentioned the 8" size >>> (Pelican) and those are far older than your XP computer. >> >> It was fairly clear to me that his mention of the 8" ones was only that >> he found someone selling some. I agree it's not clear whether he wanted >> 3½ or 5¼, though I think the former since he mentions the latter only re >> the art-seller. > > Except I don't remember any PC-XT in 1982 or later "PCs" having an > internal 8" floppy drive. Those were externally attached drives on PCs. > They did come with 5.25" internal drives. There may be custom setups > that had 8" drives as internal, like the old IBM 360 mainframes that > used an 8" floppy for the IPL (inital program load) but I severely doubt > the OP is running Windows XP on that setup. I don't recall what was the > minimum hardware requirement for Windows XP but I don't think an old > 8088 even with a Nec V20 coprocessor was acceptable to the XP installer. > > https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/314865/system-requirements-for-windows -xp-operating-systems > > That probably excludes any old consumer-grade PC that had an internal 8" > floppy. The OP never actually mentioned the floppy drive was internal > (attached to mobo controller or daughtercard) or external (via parallel, > serial, USB, or other hardware protocol interface). > >>> http://preview.tinyurl.com/y92odc83 >>> Change "3.5" to whatever size you need. The price is high because of >>> the prolonged storage costs for ancient media. You're trying to >>> acquire a portion of a very limited inventory. >> >> (Note: VanguardLH is just saying "use Google", but hiding that by using >> tinyurl. Above is _not_ a link to a specifc vendor. Thinking it was, I >> followed it, thinking 'I bet they don't have 3" ones' [as opposed to >> 3½], but of course I couldn't. [3" was a - IMO, superior, for mechanical >> reasons - format that came out about the same time the 3½" one did, but >> never caught on, presumably as it must have cost more to make.]) > > It's Froogle, or Google's Shopping search. I did a search on 3.5" > floppies and found some sellers. No, doesn't look like they are cheap. > > The Google search URL is ridiculously long hence the use of a short > redirection URL; however, unlike other redirection services, TinyURL > lets me specify the preview hostname so users can see to where the URL > points BEFORE they get pushed to there. > >>> All magnetic media incurs dipole stress which means it loses >>> retentivity over time. The dipoles are no longer perpendicular and >>> the less they are the weaker becomes the bits. That's why all >>> magnetic media requires refreshing, especially for those areas that >>> never change (only read, >> >> Though true that magnetic media lose retentivity over time (so should be >> refreshed/copied), I'm not sure they all involve _perpendicular_ >> dipoles; certainly linear recording tape doesn't, and I don't _think_ >> floppies do. I think most HD technologies do. > > 1 bits are those dipoles perpendicular to the reading direction. Over > time due to dipole stress (magnetic relaxation), the dipole field > becomes less than perpendicular until completely relaxed and > indistinguishable as a differentiation as a 1 bit. Even zeroes must be > stressed (written) to provide differentiation. The less the > differentiation (the more relaxed the dipole) the less likely the media > provides reliable distinction between of bit state. > > I'm not discussing whether the media uses longtitudinal or perpendicular > recording regarding the physical media and the sensor head. Sorry, > perpendicular was incorrect as often I see the dipoles are 180 degrees > differentiated regardless of recording direction. In old HDDs, the > dipoles were arranged longitudinally (horizontal and parallel to the > platter surface) but changed to perpendicular recording to increase > density. However, the 1 and 0 dipoles are opposite of each other (180 > degrees, not perpendicular as I said) to provide differentiation between > those states. I don't recall what floppies used for magnetic recording > orientation. I think tape had the dipoles perpendicular to the > direction of the tape movement but I'd have to check. > > Also, without a change in the recording material, going to higher > density means less material (grains) of magnetic material used for a > dipole (or magnetic domain). The whole point was that magnetic media > that sits around un-refreshed will lose retentivity of its data. > Magnetic material can resist self-demagnetization but not stop it. My > recollection is that tape was better than floppies for archival storage. > > I've seen companies that stored archival data on floppies even under > excellent environmental conditions but still lose data (but those using > tape did not). That was long ago where they learned the hard way that > floppies are not for archival storage. One company where I was the > software librarian (just one of many duties in a hydra job) would store > HDDs with the OS, software product version(s), and all support software > to archive the product. Periodically I also had to order, test, and > archive an entire PC with the HDDs to make sure the technology was still > available some 20 to 40 years later. This was to make sure the product > could be reproduced or tested again under the same conditions as for a > customer using an old product on an old OS on old hardware. There were > some customers still using 30-old versions of the enterprise software. > If they pay for support then they get it but we needed to ensure we > could oblige. I think the oldest stuff involved mortgages because that > data and software to use it has to be around for 40 years by law. > > The OP really needs to test if the drive is bad or just the floppy > (whatever size). Presumably if he has one diskette then he has some > more he can use for testing. They were mechanical drives and I remember > running into a few that get out of alignment. In fact, a floppy that > was formatted and read/wrote just fine in one computer was unusable in > another computer with the same type of drive. One of the drives was out > of alignment. No idea if the boot floppy the OP has was created using > the drive in the computer he is trying to boot or written using a drive > in a different computer. > one of the frequently encountered failures happens when 'cat hair' gets on the head rails. Calibration steps it to the end and references from there. The cat hair moved it off track. --- Platinum Xpress/Win/WINServer v3.1 * Origin: Prison Board BBS Mesquite Tx //telnet.RDFIG.NET www. (1:124/5013) .