Subj : WWIII To : ALEXANDER KORYAGIN From : BOB KLAHN Date : Thu Jul 17 2014 02:16:00 BK>> Without true freedom of speech and the press no one can have any BK>> idea what is going on in Russia. However, any govt that puts a BK>> woman's music group in prison for protest songs, and for a long BK>> time, is not a govt I believe is honest. AK> I believe you can hardly imagine a situation when some Arab AK> girls in frivolous, "ala gay parade" style clothes rush AK> into the main Jerusalem synagogue and start singing "Allah, AK> kill infidels?" Jews, I believe, can understand that such AK> an act is criminal and completely unacceptable. But Which would require maybe 30 days. Not several years. BTW, how about, "God" do whatever, which is what Arab girls would say. Well, if they spoke English. Does that apply to the protest Pussy Riot being attacked with whips in Sochi last February? BTW, you chose the worst possible example when you chose Israel. These were not foreign or even anti-Russian protestors, they are Russians, and they didn't sing anything about killing innocents, but a protest against Putin. Which would be closer to Jews going into a Synogague and singing a protest against Netanyahu. And there are plenty of Jews who oppose Netanyahu. AK> Americans think that it was OK, just because they had lost AK> the true faith in God. Russians spent 7 decades without recognition of God and couldn't fix that. Americans have as much faith in God as Russians do, which is damning with faint praise. AK> It is now all the same for them -- a AK> gay parade in a street or a fucking mess in the main AK> cathedral. It must be equally allowed. Well, at least in AK> Russia. ;) Real freedom means a gay parade must be tolerated. As to singing in a cathedral, how is that a fucking mess? So they get thrown out. If they have been praising Putin they would probably get a medal. ... AK>>> Your words are a twaddle unless you see the columns of Russian AK>>> tanks and troops marching along the Ukraine roads. BK>> Once that happens it's too late. What we do know is those troops BK>> and tanks were massed on the Ukraine border, but have recently been BK>> withdrawn. AK> But now it is too early to speak in this way, and your AK> comparisons are false. The only correct comparison is AK> comparing the situation in Ukraine with the situation in AK> Yugoslavia after some areas of it declared a separation. Not really. Not is, "as is widely believed, Russia is sending in provacatuers to instigate unrest, and soldiers to fight there. They have admitted they are there, but claim they are volunteers. What would even volunteers be doing there? What part of Yugoslavia became part of Russia? I don't recall. AK> Until the civil war Yugoslavia's borders and integrity were AK> also recognized across the world. And what part of Yougoslavia asked to be admitted to Russia? BK>> What Putin has accomplished is to give the former Soviet states BK>> reason to believe he is trying to reconstitute the Soviet Union. BK>> That gives them reason to ask for more US military aid, including BK>> the anti-missile systems that had been canceled a few years ago. AK> Many territories of the former USSR have still been closely AK> related with each other as economically as in other areas. Irrelevent. AK> Actually, until last time, eastern Ukraine was separated AK> from Russia only formally. In reality, all the eastern AK> Ukraine plants continued working with Russian plants, there AK> was no real border, people could freely move from one AK> country to another. The same things are now with AK> Byelorussia, Kazakhstan and some other former USSR AK> republics. Even you just referred to them as "republics". AK> Putin has invented nothing. It is a lie, that AK> all people of the republics of the USSR hated each other AK> and had nothing in common. So, it is a natural idea to AK> legalize things that have always been and have existed now. Since no one said that, it is meaningless. Though I am sure many did hate Russia, that does not mean they hated each other. AK>>> Who told you that countries cannot split up? Why do you think that AK>>> Ukraine cannot split like Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia? BK>> I have no problem with countries splitting up. What I do have is BK>> when one portion wants to secede, and the reports are of masked BK>> gunmen patrolling the cities. If they are legitimate, why are they BK>> masked? AK> Well, if you had seen the Maidan rebellion in Kiev you AK> could have also seen the rebels wearing masks. It is AK> natural for this kind of events. These people have AK> relatives, they are not sure that the secret police will AK> not come to their homes during the night. It is Russia that is famous for "secret police". AK> You can also note that the police across all the world now AK> uses modern technology - it photographs all the AK> demonstrators, rebels so to create a special database for AK> future arrests and repressions. If they don't have a constitution with a court system that vigorously enforces freedom of speech, that is a problem. That takes us back to freedom of speech, freedom of assembly. BK>> If the people who live there want to split off, I don't have a BK>> problem with that. I do have a problem with it being done by masked BK>> gunmen. AK> The modern Ukraine mentality cannot accept that some people AK> might have a desire to divorce and live separately. It is And how does that justify Russian interference? AK> like (in some Asian countries) women are not allowed to AK> divorce on their own will. No, it is not like that at all. AK> Compare: Divorce in Saudi Arabia AK> http://saudiwoman.me/2009/04/07/divorce-in-saudi-arabia/ No, I won't. AK>>> It is not pro-Russian forces are fighting in eastern Ukraine. It AK>>> is the Russian people who always lived there, in eastern and ... BK>> Being insulted is not ground for shooting up the place, and killing BK>> people. It is not grounds for seizing power. Now, how many Russian BK>> people live there? And why are Russians living in Ukraine and BK>> claiming the right to decide who rules the country? AK> There are 8-9 million Russians in Ukraine. It is incorrect AK> to call them killers or terrorists, as the present AK> authority does. More of that -- it is a gruesome propaganda Yet they have been killing people. Some of them. If the rest of the 8-9 million Russians don't agree with that, then what is the basis for it being done? AK> and a lie. Russian people started their protests in the AK> same lawless way the pro-western activists started their AK> activity in Kiev -- noisy defiant demonstrations, capturing AK> municipal buildings, dispersing the police etc. Yanukovich AK> refused to shoot people in Kiev (my respect to him for IOW, it wasn't a violent protest. AK> that!), but after the western rebels had come to power in AK> Kiev they shamelessly started to use a brutal force against AK> eastern protesters. After some victims the wheel of a civil AK> war had started its rotation. Blood is a perfect lubricant AK> for it. So, why are Russian "volunteers" involved? 8-9 million Russians living there should be enough to handle it. AK>>> Rebels in Kiev were minority, but they captured power by force, AK>>> violating all democratic institutions and election results. BK>> By force? It seems most of the force was used against them. AK> The Kiev police just guarded government buildings from the AK> rebels. Actually, there was only one attempt to clear AK> Maidan -- when Yanukovich was on his foreign visit. The Ya know, if you include links to your sources I can look at them. It's legal here. AK> police had cleared Maidan during a half-an-hour. But there AK> was outcry about democracy violation and the demonstrators AK> were allowed to come back. After that the police looked AK> like lamp posts and were burned alive with Molotov AK> cocktails. I saw one video of police vehicles driving into the protest lines, and getting molotov cocktails in return. BK>> According to what I have seen, the constitution was rewritten after BK>> Yonukovych took power, not by a constitutional convention or such, BK>> but by the courts. The protestors started out demanding the BK>> previous constitution be reinstated. AK> After wining the 2010 elections Yanukovich was the AK> legitimate state leader and, besides, the leader of the AK> biggest parliamentarian coalition. They had all rights to AK> do the changes they wanted. It is democracy. If another Nowhere in any democracy I am familiar with does the winner get to rewrite the constitution just like that. AK> party had won elections they could have do the same. They AK> could join to Devil or so -- it would also a legal choice. AK> The legal majority in Kiev was removed from parliament by AK> force and threats. Once they rewrote the constitution they ceased to be the legal authority. AK> That's why many in the east of the Ukraine (Yanukovich's AK> electorate) consider the Kiev's events as an illegal cope AK> and don't want to obey the new power. Or they are Russian instigators. BK>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- BK>> http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-25182830 BK>> But it was the deaths of at least 88 people, many of them BK>> protesters shot dead by uniformed snipers in 48 hours of bloodshed, BK>> that ultimately brought him down. BK>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- AK> Can you pay attention that "many of them were protesters"? AK> Who were the others? They were the police. They police AK> returned fire only after they got under a sniper fire and AK> lost a dozen of people. If the police had not shot with You don't shoot innocent protestors to get revenge. And the 88 they are talking about were killed by police. Like the US Kent State incident, during the Vietnam war, you can get innocent bystanders killed when you fire on protestors. AK> live ammunition for four or five months of the rebellion - AK> what an event could provoke them to fire? Especially when Losing the fight for public support could. AK> an agreement with Yanukovich had been achieved? I strongly AK> believe that some people in Maidan square did not want a AK> peaceful solution. And they derailed the agreement in a AK> most outrageous way. Which does not mean the people who derailed it weren't the police. AK> BK>> Putin has backed off. However, it certainly appeared he wanted to BK>> cut the Ukraine up. AK> Such events as a rule are made by small but active groups. AK> Such a thing happened in Kiev, such a thing happened in AK> eastern Ukraine. Russia has played a small role -- eastern AK> rebels had quickly captured a lot of modern weapon and even AK> some military bases. So now they are a force and if Rebelious private citizens don't capture weapons and bases from the military without help. AK> somebody don't want to spill blood or fight with them they AK> must negotiate with them and, first, to stop call them AK> terrorists and bandits. How easily some people can use such AK> marks and tags! Who is calling them terrorists and bandits? No one here I know of. AK> BK>> On March 6, after gunmen took over the parliament building in the BK>> Crimean regional capital, Simferopol, a pro-Russian leadership was BK>> installed. Then the regional parliament voted behind closed doors BK>> for Crimea to leave Ukraine and join Russia, setting a referendum BK>> for Sunday to validate their decision. AK> It doesn't matter who were that gunmen. Even id they AK> guarded that meeting, surely the situation was not like in AK> a Moscow theater which was captured by terrorists in 2002. Unless those terrorists were Ukrainians your point is a diversion. AK> And at last about the referendum. It was open and honest. AK> Everybody voted as he wanted. Those who chose not to vote AK> (many of the 13% Tatar population, for instance) were free AK> in making their choice, and their votes were taken into AK> account and not hidden. Everybody in the Crimea had an AK> opportunity to express his choice. Which requires outside observers to verify. Who was observing? AK> A NATO's general whined bitterly that the Crimea referendum AK> "was held under Russian gun barrrels," but it is more fare AK> to say that the last Ukraine elections were held under the AK> gun barrels of Ukraine's army, at least in the east. What Do you have a link to refer to on that? AK> kind of fare elections can be in a country with a civil AK> war? BTW, it is exactly the same reason why the latest AK> elections in Syria were declared illegal by the West. AK> Double standards? Do you see the Ukraine army fighting itself in this war? Who is the other army? BOB KLAHN bob.klahn@sev.org http://home.toltbbs.com/bobklahn .... ... Millions for comfort. Not one cent for truth. * Silver Xpress V4.5/P [Reg] --- Platinum Xpress/Win/WINServer v3.0pr5 * Origin: Fidonet Since 1991 bbs.docsnetservices.com (1:123/140) .