Subj : Clandestine activity is a holy cow of democracy To : ALEXANDER KORYAGIN From : BOB KLAHN Date : Sat Aug 17 2013 17:17:34 ... AK>>> Freedom has never been archived without treason of the BK>> What Snowden did is not treason under US law. AK> It depends on who interprets the law. True, always has been, but under the law it wasn't treason. ... BK>> No oppresive power is legitimate. Legal is not legitimate. BK>> Democracy is the only legitimate form of government. It is the only BK>> form under which the people rule themselves. AK> But security services and repressive forces must be AK> strongly limited by constitution. It must not be that a That is true. AK> few people or a group of people would have an unlimited AK> control over such forces, whose essence is obedience AK> without questions. Actually, a good democratic society AK> must free itself from such thoughtless people of order. It must be a matter of law, the the enforcers first duty is to obey the constitution and the law themselves. Orders are not an excuse to ignore the law or the constitution. ... AK> when in 1993 Eltsin in Russia had given an order to such AK> people to shell the Russian Parlament from tanks, point AK> blank. He defeated the parliamentarians, but spilt blood AK> and had known its taste. Literally in a year he started AK> the far more bloody war in Chechnya, because he thought AK> that solving problem by brutal force is a good and AK> effective way to gain his aims. And where is he now? You remember him, but who is he to the rest of the world? ... BK>> The problem with that is, in the US the underground resistance is BK>> made up of the ones who want to be the dictators. Their primary BK>> driving force is hate and bigotry. AK> I didn't say that criminals must be allowed to do AK> criminal violence. I just said that they can be defeated AK> without turning the country into a place where everyone AK> is under surveillance. As I said, such a thing is a AK> dander itself, maybe even greater danger for democracy AK> than some terror attacks. That is true, but the people must be the ones to resist the underground tyrants. ... AK>>> is simple -- great injustice. So, the remedy against Arab AK>>> terrorism is justice, not spying on all the people around the AK>>> world. BK>> Pope John Paul II said, "If you want peace, work for justice." That BK>> is my motto on that subject. AK> I like his words, although not many think of them when AK> they act. For instance, after WWII justice for Jews was AK> achieved at the expense of Palestinian people, who is a AK> part of a big Arab nation. Millions of Arabs who lived AK> in Palestine were even not consulted when some people in AK> Europe decided their future. Pretty much all of the Middle East was divided up that way. Ask yourself, why were a Sunni minority ruling in Iraq? Why were a Shia offshoot minority ruling Syria? Could it be the European rulers felt keeping the government seperate from the people would create client state who would become dependent on them? AK> No peace and prosperity are AK> built this way. After declaring a two state solution the AK> UN washed its hands and actually provoked the war by own AK> inaction. Although, then there were strong forses that AK> kept the UN from intervention and separation Arab and AK> Jews. When the Korean war happened the UN acted quite AK> differently. When the Korean War started the major nation opposing intervention, the Soviet Union, was absent when the vote was taken. They were the only ones in a position to stop it, who wanted to stop it. ... LL>>>> option. As George W. Bush said, we have a War on Terror to fight! LL>>>> You heard that? We must make war on a verb! En garde! I thought that wasn't right. Terror is an abstract noun. Terrorize may be a verb, but terror is not. AK>>> Ha-ha. And he waged war against poor Afghanistan, BK>> Afghanistan was responsible for giving Bin Laden a base. For that BK>> the invasion was justified. AK> In the East there is no more shame than to betray their AK> guest. Only a poor politician could imagine that the AK> Taliban would catch Bin Laden so to give him out to the AK> US, the main ally of Israel, a far more big criminal (as AK> all the countries in the Middle East think). If you guest commits murder you are responsible to turn him over. I doubt even in Afghanistan can you harbor a murderer, esp if he commits murder while your guest. AK> Besides, it was an unrealistic task to catch a small AK> group of people in the immense mountains of Afghanistan. AK> The Taliban could not catch Bin Laden even if they AK> wished to do it, as Karzay. The US forces could have caught Bin Laden if Bush hadn't pulled out so many of them. The Taliban could have caught him if they wanted to. Don't over estimate the difficulty, even there it's not difficult with the right people. AK>>> although Bin Laden was in his cozy sweet home in Pakistan. BK>> Bin Laden was not in Pakistan until after the invasion. AK> But it was easy to guess that he could leave Afghanistan AK> at any time. So there was no need for bloody invasion AK> and aggravating the civil war in Afghanistan. He could not have left Afghanistan if Bush hadn't pulled out the forces needed to block his exit. They were there but Bush, or, rather his people, pulled them out to prepare to invade Iraq. AK>>> And Bush declared that the Taliban are terrorists although they AK>>> had never done any terror acts at that BK>> I don't recall Bush declaring the Taliban as terrorists. They were BK>> terrorists to their own people, but the justification for the BK>> invasion was bringing down Bin Laden. Overthrowing the Taliban was BK>> gravy. Unfortunately Bush, and especially Cheney, screwed that up BK>> badly. AK> I don't think that they terrorized their own people I do. Dictatorships never hold power any other way. AK> before the the American led invasion. In the Afghanistan AK> of that time there was a usual civil war between north AK> and south -- so every side tried to cause as mush harm AK> to its enemy as it could. Terrorism is not a correct AK> word. At present time this word became misused very AK> much. And in many places it helps freedom oppression. They terrorized the people, but that's not terror under current usage. Funny that. BOB KLAHN bob.klahn@sev.org http://home.toltbbs.com/bobklahn .... One path between two worlds... Fire, walk with me. --- Via Silver Xpress V4.5/P [Reg] * Origin: Fidonet Since 1991 Join Us: www.DocsPlace.org (1:123/140) .