Subj : Clandestine activity is a holy cow of democracy To : LEE LOFASO From : BOB KLAHN Date : Sun Aug 11 2013 20:15:50 ... AK>>>> The state must not develop such technical instruments that make AK>>>> clandestine activity impossible. Because it is a matter of AK>>>> democracy survival. BK>>> All true, and irrelevant. Any state that wants that control will BK>>> develop the technology to give it that control. The only answer is BK>>> to develop an electorate that will kick out any government that BK>>> tries to gain that much control. BK>>> Dictatorships will try, and all that will stop them is their BK>>> inability to do so, or a populous that will overthrow them. AK>> ak>> Such things have been very possible until technology was not too ak>> high. It is like Vietnam war - the victorious Vietnamese resistance had ak>> sense only when American technology to kill and spy was not at a very ak>> high level. The Vietnamese were able to defend themselves and kick out ak>> the Americans. LL> You've got it all wrong. The Americans won the war, not the LL> Vietnamese. That is why the Vietnamese call it The LL> American War, not The Vietnamese War. However, I must LL> clarify a few things about the war that you may not be LL> aware of - The US won the war, and lost the peace. We won the war we wanted, not the war we fought. Wining the battles did not win the hearts and minds of the people. LL> After the Americans won the war, the South Vietnamese Army LL> went on to lose it. How did the SVA manage that? It is The leadership was corrupt, and the common soldiers did not have what they need to win. LL> really quite easy to understand. The SVA were trained by LL> the French, and the SVA officers had lots of American LL> money. When their brethren from the North Vietnamese Army LL> arrived, the privates in the SVA fled into the hills LL> without firing a shot, No, they fought, but they really didn't have a chance. LL> and the officers in the SVA paid LL> boat owners to take them to Hong Kong (and other exotic Well off officers, well connected officers. LL> destinations). Of course, the high command in the SVA had LL> more American money than everybody else and were able to LL> buy a plane ticket to America. And that is where we screwed up. We left the rulers in Vietnam with the ability to run a corrupt system and steal from the people. That plus steal from the assistance we provided. ... AK>>And such a scenario will be impossible in the near future, when AK>>the US technology to kill will be like an army of Terminators. Not likely anytime soon. LL> High tech breaks down easily, and in many cases does not True. Esp when maintenance is low on the priority list. LL> work at all. Not only that, but low tech can often get the LL> job done twice as fast, with minimal time needed to learn. Again, True. Rumsfeld thought he had it all figured out, high tech hardware and strategic thinking. The Pentagon knew all that, and also knew that wasn't enough. Taking the country was easy, holding it was not. The pentagon told him, but he refused to believe it. LL> Americans thought they could take over and subdue the LL> people of Afghanistan in a matter of weeks. Ditto with the Even trying to subdue was the mistake. Taking out Bin Laden and his Afghan hosts was reasonable, but it ain't our country, we got no business subduing it. LL> invasion of Iraq. However, even with the best equipped and LL> best trained army in the world, the American military was LL> unable to truly conquer either the people of Afghanistan or LL> the people of Iraq. Why? Because when Americans are LL> finished doing what they do, Americans go home, while the LL> people in those countries never leave. And that is the reality I learned long ago. A force that can pack up and leave has much less motivation than a force that has no place to go. LL> Germans are still in Germany, even after the Americans left. LL> Japanese are still in Japan, even after the Americans left. LL> Koreans are still in Korea, even after the Americans left. LL> Vietnamese are still in Vietnam, even after the Americans LL> left. Iraqis are still in Iraq, even after the Americans LL> left. Afghans will still be in Afghanistan, even after the LL> Americans have left. Yes, I know. We should have learned LL> from Englishmen and Russians, who also had to learn their LL> lesson the hard way. The first lesson any democracy must learn, if you invade a country, remember you have to fight for the people of that country as much as any other objective. ... AK>>But a spying and military technology makes things differ with AK>>every year passing. LL> How many years did it take to bring Osama bin Laden to LL> justice? Even with all our spying and technology, it took LL> us decades. Bin Laden was not brought to justice, justice was brought to Bin Laden. LL> We got lucky being able to track one of ObL's LL> couriers. And even luckier to get a team inside the LL> compound where ObL was holed up. LL> The point is, spying and technology only serve to make it LL> easier to do a task. And even then, there are problems, LL> some of which impossible to overcome. Send in the Marines. They will tell you, "The difficult we do now, the impossible takes a little longer. AK>> ak>> Is is a very wrong idea to suppose that special forces, secret ak>> services are consisted of usual people, and, therefore, they will never ak>> wring people's hands. In reality, such forces are mostly amoral, they That part is quite false. ak>> are proud of their discipline and of their readiness to carry out any ak>> orders. They give an oath and they must obey. In addition, military ak>> people as a rule are not people of high intellect. In a well run society, military people are the people. They are as intelligent as any. ak>> Such people are not interested in politics, The military are as interested in politics as any. After all, War is politics by other means, and they are the other means. ak>> they easily can be persuaded that they do right ak>> things and save the country, whereas they actually oppress it. In Russia ak>> now, millions of strong, young, ignorant people are working in special ak>> forces (OMON), police - and it is very dangerous for democracy, because ak>> any public movement can be suppressed easily. LL> Soldiering is an honorable profession. Soldiers are not LL> amoral, but in a way must do their jobs in an amoral Oh, you knew that. LL> manner. I did not say immoral. When inducted in the army, LL> a soldier has to be taught to kill - to do something LL> totally against his/her true nature. The soldier is sent Oh, you knew that. LL> off to war, to kill others. A most reprehensible thought. LL> When the soldier returns home, he/she often has no help or LL> support from his/her (military) family. The former soldier LL> is left to defend for himself/herself a way of life he/she LL> has long forgotten. Oh yeah, and the government makes excuses. LL> Many military people are highly intelligent. Especially the LL> officers, as they know better than to pick up a gun and LL> march into enemy territory. Better to let the 19-year-old LL> privates do that. Captain and below aren't all that up on that. Even Majors maybe not. LL> Some folks use the military as a means for getting into LL> politics. Serve a few years, get out, earn a few bucks, LL> raise a family, run for president. John F. Kennedy did LL> that. In WWII serving was what you did. ... LL> Ronald Reagan was smarter than them all, making training LL> films in the Army, as well as riding a horse. Funny, and too damn true. LL> Today in America we have a mercenary army. Nobody is Damn straight. LL> drafted. Some politicians want to change that. Which they should. LL> Not by LL> re-instating the draft, as that would be unpopular and get LL> them kicked out of office, but rather by passing a law LL> mandating community service. Using a carrot and stick LL> approach, these politicans want to encourage youngsters to LL> join the military as their community service, the trade-off LL> being a free ticket to college after completing their LL> duties as Terminator. But I am getting ahead of myself ... They should have to serve in the military. There is little in the way of community service they can do that is worth while. AK>>In short, I want to say that in future, an effective people's AK>>resistance can be as impossible as Vietnamese resistance if Vietnam AK>>war would happen in future. ... AK>>That's why a democratic society must prevent itself from being AK>>fully supervised, from having to a strong oppressive machinery. LL> Americans never want to think for themselves. Americans LL> love having others tell them what to do. Remember, LL> Americans live in a Nanny state, with Uncle Sam being the LL> Nanny. The US is less a nanny state than a Rich People's resort. The average American works hard and gets too little for it. ... LL> The Fear Factor is what GWB (and now Obama) thought would LL> keep the people happy. After the events of 9-11, GWB kept LL> crying wolf thoughout his presidency, claiming terrorists The Fear Factor is the primary tool of the dictators. ... LL> In majority Muslim countries, Muslims divide themselves LL> into two groups - high Muslims and low Muslims. High LL> Muslims is a term describing Muslims who are religious, or LL> good. Low Muslims is a term describing Muslims who are not LL> religious, or bad. None of this sounds the least bit true. LL> A jihad, or cleansing, ensues between LL> these two groups so that there are no more low Muslims. Since less religious Muslims are by far the majority, why aren't there no more more religious Muslims? ... LL> "A house divided against itself cannot stand." - Muslim LL> proverb Actually, that's true. ... AK>>But real freedom demands some price. LL> Freedom is just another word for having nothing left to LL> lose. Or Freedom is just another word for being willing to lose everything else. ... BOB KLAHN bob.klahn@sev.org http://home.toltbbs.com/bobklahn .... Zen Druids practice Transcendental Vegetation. --- Via Silver Xpress V4.5/P [Reg] * Origin: Fidonet Since 1991 Join Us: www.DocsPlace.org (1:123/140) .