Subj : Re: Clandestine activity is a holy cow of democracy To : BOB KLAHN From : alexander koryagin Date : Sun Aug 04 2013 18:34:02 Hi, BOB KLAHN! I read your message from 28.07.2013 12:15 about Clandestine activity is a holy cow of democracy. RW>>>> He's tried to keep his information from being revealed, but that RW>>>> may not last, depending on who has that information now. ak>>>> This information is just a scandalous information which tells ak>>>> the world about methods of NSA and other similar organizations. AK>> Anyway, Snowden did his best. If we think it over, the logic is AK>> simple. The state must NOT have full control of its citizens. The AK>> state must not have power to suppress all clandestine activity. AK>> The state must not develop such technical instruments that make AK>> clandestine activity impossible. Because it is a matter of AK>> democracy survival. BK> All true, and irrelevant. Any state that wants that control will BK> develop the technology to give it that control. The only answer is BK> to develop an electorate that will kick out any government that BK> tries to gain that much control. BK> Dictatorships will try, and all that will stop them is their BK> inability to do so, or a populous that will overthrow them. Such things have been very possible until technology was not too high. It is like Vietnam war - the victorious Vietnamese resistance had sense only when American technology to kill and spy was not at a very high level. The Vietnamese were able to defend themselves and kick out the Americans. But such a scenario now is very less probable. And such a scenario will be impossible in the near future, when the US technology to kill will be like an army of Terminators. Pay attention that all said above is just an allegory. Vietnam war is a symbol of oppressive intentions; there are many people who oppose them. But a spying and military technology makes things differ with every year passing. Is is a very wrong idea to suppose that special forces, secret services are consisted of usual people, and, therefore, they will never wring people's hands. In reality, such forces are mostly amoral, they are proud of their discipline and of their readiness to carry out any orders. They give an oath and they must obey. In addition, military people as a rule are not people of high intellect. Such people are not interested in politics, they easily can be persuaded that they do right things and save the country, whereas they actually oppress it. In Russia now, millions of strong, young, ignorant people are working in special forces (OMON), police - and it is very dangerous for democracy, because any public movement can be suppressed easily. In short, I want to say that in future, an effective people's resistance can be as impossible as Vietnamese resistance if Vietnam war would happen in future. That's why a democratic society must prevent itself from being fully supervised, from having to a strong oppressive machinery. AK>> Suppose, the state controls its people to such an extent, that it AK>> knows all people connections. This means that a member of AK>> clandestine organization cannot hide anywhere among his friends, AK>> acquaintances and even people with whom he once had a phone talk. AK>> Why it is BK> People do need to understand, clandestine does not automatically BK> mean illegal. It most certainly does not automatically mean BK> immoral. The WWII resistance movements, for example. Illegal but BK> not immoral. The secretive social groups, such as the Masons etc. BK> Clandestine, as keeping their internal activities secret, but not BK> illegal, and not immoral, as far as we know. BK> Then again, there are social groups that are fully clandestine, as BK> in keeping themselves secret, such as sexual swapping groups. BK> Immoral by common usage, but not illegal in many places. BK> Civil rights groups in the South during Jim Crow might be BK> clandestine, but not immoral, and not illegal under the US BK> constitution, no matter what local laws said. The point is that real freedom gives some people a chance to do some dirty tricks. It is true, but the question is - do you want to refuse from this real freedom so that to catch some more criminals? If someone is ready to refuse, he thinks that punitive and spying measures is the key for getting good and justice society. It is like if God didn't give us freedom of choice, but strike every person who does wrong. Well, people, probably would commit less crimes. But it would be a society of liars and cowards, not a society of free, moral people. AK>> bad? Because clandestine activity is a holy cow of democracy. If AK>> some bustards came to power and they have BK> And that is key. Democracy has to allow people to keep secrets, as BK> long as they are not hurting others. Dictators will not allow BK> clandestine operations no matter what, so rules of morality aren't BK> relevant to them. Dictatorship is possible without any dictator. A group of people can fetch power and do with the country what they want. AK>> That's why NSA activity to trace all phone calls must be stopped, AK>> and its equipment and spy bases destroyed. It will, maybe, create AK>> some difficulties in catching real criminals. But it worth it. It AK>> provide freedom and democracy more chances for survival. BK> It's the fear of the smallest chance of hurt that drives people to BK> allow such loss of freedom. But real freedom demands some price. But money must be from selling freedom. Bye, BOB! Alexander Koryagin fido7.debate 2013 --- FIDOGATE 5.1.7ds * Origin: Pushkin's BBS (2:5020/2140.2) .