Subj : Pakistan To : BOB KLAHN From : Richard Webb Date : Thu Jan 13 2011 01:35:40 Hello Bob, On Wed 2039-Jan-12 18:06, BOB KLAHN (1:123/140) wrote to RICHARD WEBB: BK>> Don't forget, nationbuilding is not good. Nationbuilding is bad. BK>> Nationbuilding is the work of Satan. We know that because right BK>> wingers tell us so. RW> IT has its downside, I'd agree there, but something *must* RW> be done in that region, and the better thing to do is RW> provide the troops and resources necessary to do just that. BK> Yeah, actually commit to fixing it. Gonna happen this week I BK> bet... yeah... sure... I believe it as much as you do. Nope, I have my doubts. RW> PEople who have a future that is other than bleak don't RW> have as much motivation to fight to the point of their own RW> destruction. BK> Yep. Or, as I say it, when they have more to lose than they have BK> to gain... BK> And if they have nothing to lose then they can do anything for any BK> reason. I've always reminded folks of that little sad fact over the years. Don't mess with a guy with nothing to lose. HE can go all out. RW> That ocean isn't a whole lot of protection these days, RW> especially when we listen to folks moan and groan as they RW> bring them over here on student visas and whatever else. BK> Yeah... that's the point. The ocean stopped being any protection BK> at all by WWII. OF course it did, and we let people in on student visas, work permits, etc. that hatred can travel at the speed of light, and infect a young man who six months later will be attending school here. OR, bringing us the next a*** who is interested in learning to fly jumbo jets but not in how to land them. RW> I've always hoped for that one. iF that's not what we're RW> fighting for I don't want the young folks going there to RW> die, for *any* other reason. NO other reason is worth it BK> Exactly. RW> imho. But, now we have a situation where we must do just RW> that, because there are a couple of failed states that RW> we've either two choices: Nation building or annihilation. We wouldn't be in that mess if we didn't defend despots such as the emir of Kuwait, the SAudis, etc. BK> Yep. Though there is a good chance if we got out of the way they BK> could fix it themselves. The Iraqis were saying, if the US BK> leaves we will take care of Al Qaeda. They didn't like Al Qaeda BK> any more than we did. WOuld they, or would we just get more TAlibans and Qaedas. My grandson is very close to fighting age, and unless he gets lucky with a scholarship he's probably going to be looking for ways to get that education, and one of them could be one of the service branches. NOrmally I'd say he should do that, but I don't really feel that great about him defending such pigs as the TAliban or the house of SAud, unless he'd get to push the obliteration button. BK> A local columnist in the Toledo Paper is a native of Pakistan. He BK> points out, the military there doesn't much like being jerked BK> around by politicians, and they won't care if those politicians BK> wear turbans. Maybe, but if they make alliance with the Qaedas and the TAliban then we've got one choice, and that's arm India to the teeth, assist their nuclear program to the help and let 'em get it on. BK> We ain't winning there, and just making more enemies. THat's right, and that's what we've done in that whole region since Desert STorm. I never understood why a young man or woman should go to fight for this emir when the rich kids from his country partied in EUrope. MEanwhile a young man couldn't read Plaboy magazine, a young American soldier couldn't be seen in town or drive if she chose. THat isn't what we stand for here. One drop of our blood spilled for that is one drop too many. IF blood is to be spilled let's drench that part of the world in it, and get it over with and bring the young boys and girls home. RW> Funny how we went in my little over half a century lifetime RW> from being a beacon of freedom and justice to the world to RW> being vilified and considered inept. WHat happened to that RW> beacon for liberty and justice we heard about in our civics RW> lessons? IT got snuffed out, and then sold as parts for RW> cheap oil. BK> Excellent analysis... but... there is hope. BK> Worldpublicopinion.org prints results of various polls. They say BK> the world's opinion of the US is moving up. We aren't at the top BK> yet, but we are moving up. WE should've never moved down in the first place. tHough we tried to avoid WW2 we waded in with both feet when we finally did, when we were forced in, but FDR understood that day was coming. Have been reading a lot of history of the FDR presidency recently. that old boy faced some agonizing choices in the very near future, and accepted that draft to run again in 40 just because he knew what those choices meant. BK>> The Emir of Kuwait would not have been allowed to return by my BK>> rules. RW> MIne either, but he did return. Even then I was saying to RW> folks that they shouldn't confuse dying for oil with RW> fighting for freedom. BK> Which, somehow, they got confused about again. THey never got unconfused Bob. THe memory of our average American citizen is quite short, they remember what was on the tube five minutes ago before they clicked the damn remote. Crack a book? NOt hardly. that takes some intellectual engagement. ONe actually has to engage a few brain cells to do that, and we're more interested in killing 'em off, or just turning 'em off. MOst of our young folks going over there to possibly die didn't even know where the hell these places were two days before they shipped out, and didn't care. I'm sure you've seen those surveys where they walked folks up to a globe and asked them to "point to your location." RW>> There's a thought. ISI essentially operates with autonomy. BK>> Exactly my thought. YEp, they're the ones that double deal, and will deal with the Taliban if they think that's where their advantage lies. RW> Appears they're gonna be running the show in the whole RW> country anyway. BK> Unless they bring in the Taliban and the military decides to stop BK> that. Maybe, we'll have to wait and see. From what I understand ISI basically manipulates the military anyway. BK>>> OTOH, we need to rein in India's nuke activities also. Damn so BK>>> much we need to do. RW> RIght, but isn't some of India's nuke activity power RW> generation related as well? BK> Yep, which is completely within the anti-proliferation rules. YEs it is, but easy to go from power generation to enriched plutonium, etc. BK>> I suspect India would still want to be the dominant power so they BK>> would keep the nukes. They all need to be under world BK>> pressure. PRobalby, but, consider it from their pov. Would you want to give up the ability to annihilate your neighbor if they give you any guff? This is especially true when your neighbor is sympathetic to the TAliban, the Qaedas and that ilk. I'd want it known that in a moment's notice if you tick me off you'll die. I mean every man woman and child. Were I the Indian government I'd remind them I can always turn off the tap first, after all, I control the headwaters of that big river that gives them all that irrigation, and I might just decide a pretty fountain is more to my liking than watering your fields folks. wHen the only tool you've got is a bludgeon ... RW> Probably, but if I had to make a choice I'd just as soon RW> INdia have the whip hand. BK> I'd just as soon the all be forced to keep their hands off each BK> other. Right, but that means a major change in attitude, from the government, and the populace. Until that happens I'd just as soon India have that whip hand. Regards, Richard .... Everybody does better when everybody does better. --- timEd 1.10.y2k+ * Origin: (1:116/901) .