Subj : LIBERALS WANT THEIR VERY To : MARK LEWIS From : BOB KLAHN Date : Sun May 22 2011 02:40:26 ml>>> ok... so which group is for allowing gun ownership and which group is ml>>> for removing personal weapons? SD>>> Well, since the Constitution gives us the right to bear arms, no SD>>> one "allows" gun ownership. The liberals, who can't understand why SD>>> anyone would want to defend themselves or their property (I guess SD>>> too many years of living off the government tit has diluted their SD>>> sense of "self-worth"), have been trying for years and years to SD>>> turn the US into Canada or UK...where one can be completely SD>>> defenseless and only the government can have guns...to use on SD>>> whomever they please. ml>> see? something seems backwards here... to me, liberal means allowing ml>> more of something whereas a conservative wants to restrict something... Actually... no... Well, it depends on who is using the words and when. And about what. Conservative used to mean preserving the good parts of the system. Now it means catering to business and big money. Liberal used to mean change the system, more or less quickly and drastically. Now it has been so distorted by right wing media no one knows what it means at all. Today conservatives want tax cuts for the rich, and shifting the burden to the working class. That and interfering in your personal life. Liberals want to tax the rich, shift the burden to those who have profited the most, and keep government out of your personal life. ml>> allowing personal gun ownership (ie: not trying to take it away) seems ml>> to be a liberal act... like liberally applying mayonaise to a sandwich... True. ml>> who switched the terms' definitions around? why? Mostly right wingers, to disguise the fact that they have twisted things around completely. JH> A lot of it goes all the way back to the days of the JH> Revolution. Back then, you had the Whigs and Tories. The JH> Tories were the royalists who favored King George, and the JH> Whigs were the colonials and others who favored JH> independence and a republican form of government. After JH> the war, the Tories became known as Democrats, favoring a JH> more 'liberal' form of government where everyone was equal, JH> and the government acted on behalf of all the people, like JH> their 'mommy' so to speak. Well, that has to be one of the most absurd possible explanations. First of all, the Tories had nothing much to do with the early US government. The Republicans were the ones who adhered to the ideas of Thomas Jefferson who favored a farmer rural small town nation. The ones favoring a strong central government and industry were the Federalists. There was no democratic party then. JH> The Whigs favored a republic and favored more individual JH> rights for citizens -- less intrusive government at the JH> top, and more state's rights at the bottom. The Whigs The Whigs didn't exist until 45 years after the constitution was signed. When they did come into existance they were the replacement for the Federalists, the strong federal government industrial nation party. JH> gradually faded out by the mid-1800s. There was a whole During that period there were two republican parties. The National Republican party who followed up on the Whigs/Federalists, and the Democratic-Republican party who were the original Republican party. JH> raft of small parties that cropped up and quickly died out JH> at the same time. Then in the 1850s, the Grand Old Party JH> (aka the Republicans) started up. After ten years of After the Democratic-Republican party changed their name to the Democratic party. JH> running locals at the state level, they entered national JH> politics and nominated Lincoln as their candidate for JH> president. The rest is history. JH> The old line pre-WWII Democrats were a lot more like modern JH> Republicans, and are often referred to as small L liberals. Or conservatives. JH> Post war Democrats (or Roosevelt Democrats) are often JH> called big L liberals because of the more radical JH> Roosevelt ideology that fathered the welfare state, and JH> things like Social Security and Medicare (modern day JH> entitlement programs). JH> So, nobody has really switched the definitions. Think of JH> 'liberal' in terms of being 'progressive' or 'community JH> oriented' where control is more centrally located, and JH> power is excercised supposedly for the benefit of all. JH> 'Conservative' refers to decentralized control where power JH> is restricted and exercised to a set of rules laid down in JH> the Constitution, with much more individual autonomy. That last part is not quite true. Conservative doesn't actually mean adhering to the constitution. If you don't believe it, try to explain how government can subsidize religious proselytizing combined with welfare service. Conservative typically means states rights, which has very little to do with restricting power, just who wields is. Corruption is really more common in local government than national. As is abuse. That's my observation. BOB KLAHN bob.klahn@sev.org http://home.toltbbs.com/bobklahn .... When you get there, there isn't any there anymore. --- Via Silver Xpress V4.5/P [Reg] * Origin: Since 1991 And Were Still Here! DOCSPLACE.TZO.COM (1:123/140) .