Subj : Current events To : BOB KLAHN From : Richard Webb Date : Thu Feb 17 2011 13:58:41 Hi Bob, On Wed 2039-Feb-16 13:37, BOB KLAHN (1:123/140) wrote to RICHARD WEBB: RW> I think they were misinterpreting some of what they were RW> seeing. Islamic group members were vocal supporters, and RW> some former brotherhood members as well from what I"ve read RW> since, but they all say the same thing. Ideology has no RW> place in this, we've got to get changes made for the RW> benefit of the citizens, then we're going to worry about RW> the rest, but this inresponsive government's gotta go. BK> That's how I see it. They were lining up against a bad BK> government. There is nothing for us to do there, but stand back BK> and let it happen. INdeed, which is what we should have been doing all along instead of pouring millions in. BK>> Iran was no real threat to the US from the beginning. Iran did BK>> turn to democracy, and even supported the US invasion of BK>> Afghanistan and the democratization of Iraq. Bush paid them back BK>> by kicking them in the teeth. The current regime in Iran came after BK>> that. RW> EH? 1979-80 didn't look like a friendly democratic regime RW> to me. I grant they were growing that direction. IN fact, BK> By 2001 they were supporting the US in the WOT. However, Bush BK> needed enemies more than he needed allies. MIght be, but still imho appeared to be another despotic state, iow a theocracy. RW> I've argued this for years. Part of U.S. intervention RW> should be the assistance in building a stable RW> constitutional democracy. THat should be an assumption RW> going in, and an expectation of those who ask our help. RW> Anything else and the troops and equipment stay home. BK> Exactly what I am thinking. That imho is the only justifiable reason for any war which is not for the purpose of directly defending U.S. teritory. BK>> Since mid Dec of last year, Tunisia and Egypt have had BK>> successful rebellions. Jordan, Algeria, Yemen and Bahrain have BK>> been subject to enough protests to force the governments to make BK>> changes. RW> RIght, and that one could still blow up even though the RW> vote is in. There's still some pretty bad blood in Sudan. BK> Yep. It could. Which is why the US needs to get out of Iraq and BK> Afghanisan, so we can have a credible military to support BK> democratic govts when the locals establish them. wHole region is still a powderkeg, and likely to get worse as climate conditions change. RW>> The question is what RW>> they'll do if they get their wish. WIll they work with RW>> secular leaders to actually govern in the interest of all RW>> the people or settle for nothing less than rule by their RW>> ISlamic law? That's the question we should be asking, and RW>> keep on asking before we pour in any support at all. BK>> That's a question we should ask, but it's not the question that BK>> should decide our actions at this point. We need to support BK>> democracy. Supporting a country on the basis of how it suits our BK>> needs is how we lose countries. It's how we are losing in Iraq and BK>> Afghanistan. It's how Iran and Venezuala turned against us. It's BK>> how we lost in Vietnam. Agreed, to a point. Local self determination is always preferrable, but i have the same objections to a "christian" theocracy, or any other theocracy for that matter. BK>> We need to look at one thing only, what is best for the people BK>> there. RW> Indeed, that should be the biggest factor in our decision. But it rarely is, it's usually commercial interests that carry the day. RW> Agreed, so that's the next question, who's version of RW> "islamic " or sharia are we going with? I wouldn't support RW> the Wahhabi version at all. BK> Which takes us back to the Wahabi, and the Saudis, being the prime BK> source of anti-US terror. OF course it does, and the ease with which they can coopt democracy movements over there. BK>> Isn't it interesting that the biggest claim of superiority we can BK>> make against a related religion is that we *IGNORE* our own BK>> religious teachings and traditions. RW> Indeed, but there again, what are "our own?" MOst of us RW> granted are Christian in one form or another. For those of BK> This is a Christian culture, even for those who are not BK> Christians themselves. Essentially yes. RW> us who are JEwish we have many teachings in common. But RW> then what of the hindus and Buddhists among us? tHen I'd BK> A small fraction, and not near as peaceful and spiritual as they BK> are painted. RW> venture to say that there are more atheists than one might RW> think, they usually choose to keep their beliefs, or should RW> I say lack of beliefs silent and hold the one belief BK> Worldwide the top belief systems are, Christian, Muslim, BK> Unbeliever. And Catholics are the overwhelming majority of BK> Christians. IOW, unbelievers are the third largest group. In the BK> stats they are divided between atheists and unbelievers. I think BK> that's to reduce the apparent numbers. I would tend to agree with that. THere is a difference, but that one's hard to explain to many, of all faiths. The true atheist has no theology, hence a-theist. HE might keep an open mind however. RW> publicly which states that your religious beliefs are your RW> own business and between you and whatever you perceive your RW> ggod to be. Although I was raised Christian I turned my RW> back on all of it as a young man, and learned soon after RW> doing so the advisability of just keeping my mouth shut and RW> avoiding religious pomp and ceremony whenever possible. BK> True. And now the evangelical extremists are becoming a danger to BK> this country. Read up on the Millitary Religious Freedom BK> Foundation. I have, in fact I've read up on those isues for years. My period of ahteism sensitized me quite a bit to those issues. See the tagline. BK>> Those who insist our society should be governed by our religious BK>> traditions and laws, going all the way back to the most ancient BK>> ones, can be no better in their conduct than the worst of BK>> Islamic fundamentalism. RW> YOu got that right!!! What are we talking here? RW> 14th amendment if I'm right (first cup of coffee) and RW> proscription against cruel and unusual punishment. BK> See the tagline. NOted, cruel doesn't become unusual once practiced. Regards, Richard .... RELIGIOUS FUNDAMENTALISM A THREAT ABROAD, A THREAT AT HOME --- timEd 1.10.y2k+ * Origin: (1:116/901) .