Subj : Great Replacement Theory
To   : Arelor
From : Kaelon
Date : Fri May 27 2022 09:42:13

  Re: Great Replacement Theory
  By: Arelor to Kaelon on Thu May 26 2022 01:39 pm

 > The areas with the most Moroccans tend to be the areas where people votes
 > the most for parties with anti-immigration programs. This alone suggests
 > integration is not going that well. The Barcelona area is turning to
 > Detroit-lite because ethnic gangs have started mugging people in broad
 > daylight after they started soaking immigrants in without a plan as to what
 > to do with them.

I appreciate the view.  Though my family immigrated to the United States from Cuba, all sides of my family are traced to Spain (Malaga, Sevilla, and Galicia, predominantly), and so I take a deep interest in the Spanish experiment of the modern state.

My general impression of Barcelona and Catalunya in general, is that the suppression of Catalan identity - seen as a threat to the overarching Spanish identity - is a far more serious threat to Spain's cultural values than the permissible importation of Moroccans into the region.  Nevertheless, the formation of Spain consists of largely unassimilated regional powers from the middle ages which worked cooperatively (and today, autonomously) for the idea of the modern Spanish State.  This only works if the idea of an overarching Spain prevails, and while it certainly was forced upon the population through Monarchy and Fascism, today, the democratic experiment is producing uneven results that have nothing to do with immigration and everything to do with failed assimilation of languages and cultures.

 > I personally think integration is overhyped. What a lot of people seems to
 > want from immigrants is to come in, forget their culture and adopt the local
 > customes. I think that for a lot of groups that is just not going to happen.
 > In fact, wanting that to happen is anti-diverse (ie. if you want to import
 > Moroccans and strip their culture away from them so they are just
 > Spaniards you are a modern day colonialist imposing your culture on others).
 >
 > The ironic thing is that many African immigrants come with ideas that are
 > unnaceptable by Spanish standards, such as partaking in genital mutilation.
 > In order for them to fit in you have to engineer them and turn them into
 > something they are currently not.

It's easy to forget that in the United States, Mediterraneans were seen as sub-human aliens who threatened the secular state for one primary reason: Catholicism.  In fact, it wasn't until the 1960s (after Vatican II) that Roman Catholicism became generally acceptable in political life - and John F. Kennedy's election, which was also controversial given his religion and ethnicity, was a key factor behind this acceptance.

But the Irish and the Italians were both seen to be monarchists and theocrats, beholden to the Pope, and a threat to the identity of the American Secular State.  Because they weren't protestant, and did not come from a true protestant culture like the English, Scottish, Germans, Dutch, and Scandinavians - they were largely seen with suspicion.  They also, unlike the French and Spanish, never had the benefit of historical connection with the creation of the U.S.  There was widespread "racial" violence against Irish and Italian people throughout the 1800s and early 1900s, primarily because of religion which was seen as truly alien to the American idea of life.  This only abided when it became clear that Irish and Italians would assimilate into the American way of life by openly pledging allegiance to the United States, and rejecting the Pope's material authority.  And this was highly controversial, at the time, but now is a given pretty much everywhere in the world.

I raise this example because failed integration and assimilation stems from not being able to create a common framework of values that immigrants can relate to and prioritize over their old identity.

_____
-=: Kaelon :=-

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