Subj : =?UTF-8?Q?Re=3a_Pedro_S=c
To   : Tracker1
From : Boraxman
Date : Sun Apr 10 2022 11:06:00

-=> Tracker1 wrote to Boraxman <=-

 Tr> @MSGID: <62505881.7503.dove-debate@roughneckbbs.com>
 Tr> @REPLY: <624ABCD0.22944.dove-deb@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
 Tr> On 4/4/22 02:39, Boraxman wrote:
 >
 > I disagree that "the market" will sort out the dodgy players.  It may
 > for a restaurant which poisons many, maybe, but for large businesses,
 > no.  The institutions which nearly brought down the worlds economic
 > system in 2008 still have customers.

 Tr> I think a free market *can* work, however governments tend to prop up
 Tr> business institutions and grant far more power and leeway than should
 Tr> probably be allowed for limited liability and collective ownership.

 Tr> I also think it's time to get rid of corporate income tax, require all
 Tr> political donations and advertising only from private donations and/or
 Tr> institutions where all donations/funding are from individuals and the
 Tr> books are open.

 Tr> As to displacing the corporate tax, for what it is, I would suggest
 Tr> transaction and exchange taxes.  0.1% on all stock, bond and currency
 Tr> trades with ~5% on all loans that are not for a primary residence or
 Tr> one vehicle per individual, another ~5% for loans that have an interest
 Tr> below the Fed rate, and another ~5% where the payoff is more than 10
 Tr> years.  This would also properly tax those that use ever broadening
 Tr> loans to pay for multi-millionaire/billionaire lifestyles without ever
 Tr> actually paying taxes.  I'd also rather see a vat over income tax as
 Tr> well as a return to a stronger use of tariffs and excise taxes.

 Tr> I always thought property taxes were kind of gross though.  I don't
 Tr> think living another year while owning property should be a taxable
 Tr> event.

 Tr> Back to the matter at hand... I think with some restructuring of tax
 Tr> basis, combined with lessening the liability protections corporations
 Tr> receive and a few other points, a (mostly) free market can work.  That
 Tr> said, international trade is never going to be a free market, and thus
 Tr> some level of protection for one's own nation is probably prudent.

The "Free Market" can work ideology sounds a lot like the "Communism can work"
ideology.  Like the Socialists, we are just speculating, and pointing to cases
where deregulation failed (such as 2008) as "not true Free Markets".

You can NEVER have a true Free Market, and if you could live out the
Libertarian/AnCap wet dream, it would be a hellscape.  Communism is preferable,
as bad as it is, the Communist Eastern European countries didn't undergo
permanent demographic degeneration like the Capitalist Free Market West.

Free Markets must mean free movement of people, and therefore I oppose this. 
Free movement of Labour is something that will destroy your nation.  I'm not
sure how one can argue for free movement of Capital, but then deny that same
Capital the right to move Labour as it sees fit.  This isn't a free market, as
there is now a disconnect between Capital and Labour.

What does work is permitting private enterprise and allowing people to dictate
their own terms of trade and prices, and denying people this has led to
economic failures.  But people look at this and think it means allowing
corporate leviathans the opportunity to do what they like, and it leads to
propertarianism, ie, you are able to do what you like with your property, even
harm others, and its OK as long as its "voluntary".

"Free Markets" all to often is used as a cover for people who want to use their
market power, their property and position to have power over others.  All too
often, especially with the Right, "Freedom" means freedom to oppress, degrade,
subjugate and have petty, petty power.  That your right to be a little lord
trumps other peoples.

I've seen far, far to many people use Libertarianism and Free Market ideology
as just a cudgel to justify their own petty lusts for power.  I'm not accusing
you of this, I'm just saying that many who do profess these ideas are like
that, so I'm far more skeptical now of the argument than I ever was in the
past.


Society should grant you the legal rights to your own property, and to your
enterprise, and especially autonomy.  Autonomy and having ownership of what you
produce is where the true freedom lies.  That autonomy must be preserved, even
when you engage in joint economic activity (something Free Marketeers dislike).

The problem isn't taxes, well it is, but fundamentally it is property rights
and legal rights, and the property rights that are granted in our society.  We
are too myopic, and we think that the only thing we can change is taxation
regimes.

We need a more fundamental change.  We need to fundamentally change the
employer/employee relationship, of what is a company and look at property
rights, and what property rights we should grant, and what they mean.

Fiddling with taxes isn't going to solve much.

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