From: Digestifier To: Subject: Dead-Flames Digest #645 Dead-Flames Digest #645, Volume #48 Sat, 22 Oct 05 14:00:01 PDT Contents: Re: White House Indictment vigil(NDC) ("Richard Morris") Re: I feel weirded out this morning. (RossMcGibbon) Re: Jefferson Starship show? ("AirtimeJunkie") Re: what should the United States do with combatants who don't belong to regular armies? ("Ray") 22 years ago today ("gb") Re: White House Indictment vigil(NDC) ("Ray") Re: GDTSTOO - New Year's with Phil Lesh and Friends. ("dearmeyer®") Review - Susan Tedeschi @ Irving Plaza ("Schmoe") Re: what should the United States do with combatants who don't belong to regular armies? ("Sparky the Wonder Dog") Re: Thank you, Mr. Postman ("Steve Terry") LAdder to the Stars Jerry Garcia new cd questions ("serveyerself") Re: drug tests for jobs (NDC) (Joe) Re: LAdder to the Stars Jerry Garcia new cd questions (pbuzby2002@yahoo.com) Re: Jefferson Starship show? ("Dave Kelly") ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Richard Morris" Subject: Re: White House Indictment vigil(NDC) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 12:10:03 -0700 "Ray" wrote in message news:1130007622.894553.293310@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com... > Carlisle wrote: >> I still don't know why >> this is as big of a scandle as it's turned out to be. Valerie Plame was >> not a covert agent in harm's way. > > Again -- and contrary to disinformation from right-wing rags like the > National Review and their 'leader' Rush Limbaugh -- it is highly likely > that Plame was a covert agent. When she was outed she wasn't in > "harm's way", this much is true. However in the bigger picture that > fact - repeated ad nauseum by the right-wing propaganda machine - makes > little difference: the outing of *any* CIA agent - in "harm's way" or > otherwise - has a substantial adverse impact on our national security. > Moreover, so does every instance where the right-wing > propaganda/disinformation machine downplays this fundamental fact. > > Former CIA case officer and prosecutor James Marcinkowski explains why: > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > Testimony of James Marcinkowski > > (July 22, 2005 - covered on CSPAN3) > > What is important now is not who wins or loses the political battle or > who may or may not be indicted; rather, it is a question of how we will > go about protecting the citizens of this country in a very dangerous > world. The undisputed fact is that we have irreparably damaged our > capability to collect human intelligence and thereby significantly > diminished our capability to protect the American people. > > Understandable to all Americans is a simple, incontrovertible, but > damning truth: the United States government exposed the identity of a > clandestine officer working for the CIA. This is not just another > partisan "dust-up" between political parties. This unprecedented act > will have far-reaching consequences for covert operations around the > world. Equally disastrous is that from the time of that first damning > act, we have continued on a course of self-inflicted wounds by > government officials who have refused to take any responsibility, have > played hide-and-seek with the truth and engaged in semantic parlor > games for more than two years, all at the expense of the safety of the > American people. No government official has that right. > > For an understanding of what is at stake it is important to understand > some fundamental principles. No country or hostile group, from al Qaeda > to any drug rings operating in our cities, likes to be infiltrated or > spied upon. The CIA, much like any police department in any city, has > undercover officers--spies, that use "cover." > > To operate under "cover" means you use some ruse to cloak both your > identity and your intentions. The degree of cover needed to carry out > any operation varies depending on the target of the investigation. A > police officer performing "street buys" uses a "light" cover, meaning > he or she could pose as something as simple as a drug user, operate > only at night and during the day and, believe it or not, have a desk > job in the police station. On the other hand, if an attempt were made > to infiltrate a crime syndicate, visiting the local police station or > drinking with fellow FBI agents after work may be out of the question. > In any scenario, your cover, no matter what the degree, provides > personal protection and safety. But it does not end there. Cover is > also used to protect collection methodology as well as any innocent > persons a CIA officer may have regular contact with, such as overseas > acquaintances, friends, and even other U.S. government officials. > > While cover provides a degree of safety for the case officer, it also > provides security for that officer's informants or agents. In most > human intelligence operations, the confidentiality of the cover used by > a CIA officer and the personal security of the agent or asset is > mutually dependent. A case officer cannot be identified as working for > the CIA, just as the informant/agent cannot be identified as working > for the CIA through the case officer. If an informant or agent is > exposed as working for the CIA, there is a good chance that the CIA > officer has been identified as well. Similarly, if the CIA officer is > exposed, his or her agents or informants are exposed. In all cases, the > cover of a case officer ensures not only his or her own personal safety > but that of the agents or assets as well. > > The exposure of Valerie Plame's cover by the White House is the same as > the local chief of police announcing to the media the identity of its > undercover drug officers. In both cases, the ability of the officer to > operate is destroyed, but there is also an added dimension. An > informant in a major sophisticated crime network, or a CIA asset > working in a foreign government, if exposed, has a rather good chance > of losing more than just their ability to operate. > > Any undercover officer, whether in the police department or the CIA, > will tell you that the major concern of their informant or agent is > their personal safety and that of their family. Cover is safety. If you > cannot guarantee that safety in some form or other, the person will not > work for you and the source of important information will be lost. > > So how is the Valerie Plame incident perceived by any current or > potential agent of the CIA? I will guarantee you that if the local > police chief identified the names of the department's undercover > officers, any half-way sophisticated undercover operation would come to > a halt and if he survived that accidental discharge of a weapon in > police headquarters, would be asked to retire. > > And so the real issues before this Congress and this country today is > not partisan politics, not even the loss of secrets. The secrets of > Valerie Plame's cover are long gone. What has suffered perhaps > irreversible damage is the credibility of our case officers when they > try to convince our overseas contact that their safety is of primary > importance to us. How are our case officers supposed to build and > maintain that confidence when their own government cannot even > guarantee the personal protection of the home team? While the loss of > secrets in the world of espionage may be damaging, the stealing of the > credibility of our CIA officers is unforgivable.... > > And so we are left with only one fundamental truth, the U.S. government > exposed the identity of a covert operative. I am not convinced that the > toothpaste can be put back into the tube. Great damage has been done > and that damage has been increasing every single day for more than two > years. The problem of the refusal to accept responsibility by senior > government officials is ongoing and causing greater damage to our > national security and our ability to collect human intelligence. But > the problem lies not only with government officials but also with the > media, commentators and other apologists who have no clue as to the > workings of the intelligence community. Think about what we are doing > from the perspective of our overseas human intelligence assets or > potential assets. > > I believe Bob Novak when he credited senior administration officials > for the initial leak, or the simple, but not insignificant confirmation > of that secret information, as I believe a CIA officer in some far away > country will lose an opportunity to recruit an asset that may be of > invaluable service to our covert war on terror because "promises of > protection" will no longer carry the level of trust they once had. > > Each time the leader of a political party opens his mouth in public to > deflect responsibility, the word overseas is loud and clear--politics > in this country does in fact trump national security. > > Each time a distinguished ambassador is ruthlessly attacked for the > information he provided, a foreign asset will contemplate why he should > risk his life when his information will not be taken seriously. > > Each time there is a perceived political "success" in deflecting > responsibility by debating or re-debating some minutia, such actions > are equally effective in undermining the ability of this country to > protect itself against its enemies, because the two are indeed related. > Each time the political machine made up of prime-time patriots and > partisan ninnies display their ignorance by deriding Valerie Plame as a > mere "paper-pusher," or belittling the varying degrees of cover used to > protect our officers, or continuing to play partisan politics with our > national security, it is a disservice to this country. By ridiculing, > for example, the "degree" of cover or the use of post office boxes, you > lessen the level of confidence that foreign nationals place in our > covert capabilities. > > Those who would advocate the "I'm ok, you're ok" politics of > non-responsibility, should probably think about the impact of those > actions on our foreign agents. Non-responsibility means we don't care. > Not caring means a loss of security. A loss of security means a loss of > an agent. The loss of an agent means the loss of information. The loss > of information means an increase in the risk to the people of the > United States. > > There is a very serious message here. Before you shine up your American > flag lapel pin and affix your patriotism to your sleeve, think about > what the impact your actions will have on the security of the American > people. Think about whether your partisan obfuscation is creating > confidence in the United States in general and the CIA in particular. > If not, a true patriot would shut up. > > Those who take pride in their political ability to divert the issue > from the fundamental truth ought to be prepared to take their share of > the responsibility for the continuing damage done to our national > security. > > When this unprecedented act first occurred, the president could have > immediately demanded the resignation of all persons even tangentially > involved. Or, at a minimum, he could have suspended the security > clearances of these persons and placed them on administrative leave. > Such methods are routine with police forces throughout the country. > That would have at least sent the right message around the globe, that > we take the security of those risking their lives on behalf of the > United States seriously. Instead, we have flooded the foreign airwaves > with two years of inaction, political rhetoric, ignorance, and partisan > bickering. That's the wrong message. In doing so we have not lessened, > but increased the threat to the security and safety of the people of > the United States. Thanks, Ray, for bringing this in. So now, you right wing types .... "Carlisle" and others ... what do you have to say about this? Do you still feel that it is much ado about nothing? I will await your response with interest. I am always curious that when some right wing assertion is made, and a generally compelling refutation is delivered, there is typically silence until the same people cough up the next right wing diatribe. Are y'all incapable of reasoning? R. ------------------------------ From: RossMcGibbon Subject: Re: I feel weirded out this morning. Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 20:36:25 +0100 > > I have had them on ebay for several days asking just cost. One person has >the auction page watched but no inquiries and i'm accepting best offers. See >auctions; http://urlcut.com/1bgox >http://urlcut.com/1bgoy > >I know there's been a poor review published but from waht i heard of the >RAH shows the guy had unreasonable expectations and was judgeing this >reunion against their peakin '67-'68 > Wow! That is really bad luck. Strange! Ross -- RossMcGibbon For music reviews, arts, opinions and more - www.vanguard-online.co.uk "I've been all around the world and I've never seen a statue of a critic" - Leonard Bernstein ------------------------------ From: "AirtimeJunkie" Subject: Re: Jefferson Starship show? Date: 22 Oct 2005 12:41:55 -0700 Yes, it was confirmed in the SF Chronicle. Kevin ------------------------------ From: "Ray" Subject: Re: what should the United States do with combatants who don't belong to regular armies? Date: 22 Oct 2005 12:49:46 -0700 Sparky the Wonder Dog wrote: > re: "This, from a guy who advocates for committing genocide against > Palestinians if, after given two days to comply, they don't evacuate > from the West Bank and Gaza. Look in a mirror, Chris" > > Is this CK's stated position or are folks extrapolating?. It's Chris' stated position[1] - Chris is a Christian Holy Warrior. Or rather, Chris is an advocate for Christian Holy War - I highly doubt he'd become an actual warrior if the war/genocide in the Holy Land that he advocates for ever came to fruition. He'll instead do what he and so many other Iraq war chicken-hawks are currrently doing re- the Iraq war: advocate for said war, and then cheer it on from the comfort and safety of his home computer. Ray ______________________ "It is easy for those who do not share [religious] extremists' belief to dismiss them as irrational or as a cover for other commitments. Yet dismissal leaves us deaf to the internal logic of people who believe they must shatter the world to make it whole." - Gershom Gorenberg, in the preface to his excellent book "The End of Days: Fundamentalism and the Struggle for the Temple Mount" ______________________ [1] http://groups.google.com/group/rec.music.gdead/msg/bddffe8580aab4ab?dmode=source From: "Chris" Newsgroups: rec.music.gdead Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 22:14:08 -0500 "Ray" wrote in message news:1111027134.927022.206610@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com... > Chris wrote: > > Suggesting all Israelis over 18 are legitimate targets becasue > > they all must serve in the army is more than just antisemetic . > > This, from a guy who has advocated here on rmgd (after one of many > Palestinian suicide bombings) giving Palestinians two days to vacate > the West Bank and Gaza before committing genocide against those who > remained: > > "i'd give the denizens of gaza and the west bank two days to > evacuate before i turned them both back into dust ! Deadline > sunrise. Leave or be returned to your elemental constituant > components." > - Chris Kerrissey, rmgd 10/5/03 > > > Its good that he was > > brought to the point of publicly repudiating his vile thoughts. > > You have yet to publicly repudiate your similar vile thoughts. > > Practice what you preach, Chris. Oh, wait, you preach war and even > genocide against Palestinians - never mind. > > Ray > When you have watched your children being blown up in front of your eyes you can tell me how to feel.Jerusalem has been the capital of Israel for something like 4,000 years.These mongrels squat on land the maker of heaven and earth granted the children of Issac then begin murdering them, yah i feel exactly the way i sounded when i wrote that and i haven't changed one iota. I think what Sharon is doing by handing over control of land God gave them thousands of years ago to keep forever to his people's murderers is abominable and if anything is a clearly prohphetic event this is. Since i am not likely to be running Israel anytime soon i can shoot my mouth off with no consequence but in the hypothetical scenario i outlined i gave the 'pals' a good deal more mercy than they have given Israel. Mark my words you prattling fool; the robbing of Israeli lands from God's elect under threats ,murder and the shreaks of nations will not endure the One who delivered Jacob from bondage will deliver him again. ------------------------------ From: "gb" Subject: 22 years ago today Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 15:54:40 -0400 the last show on the fall tour. Syracuse Carrier Dome. Monumental Shakedown to open the show. A bit of a let down because they didn't play St. Stephen, but it was a great show. For some reason archive.org has the soundboard of this one blocked, but somewhere along the line I managed to get a copy and it is very sweet. The birdsong in the first set is incredible. it was also my first dead show (i had seen JGB a couple times first). ------------------------------ From: "Ray" Subject: Re: White House Indictment vigil(NDC) Date: 22 Oct 2005 12:54:50 -0700 Richard Morris wrote: > Thanks, Ray, for bringing this in. De nada. Re-reading Marcinkowski's testimony here I'm angry and disgusted all over again - I really hope that Fitzgerald nails the mother-f*ers who outed Plame. Ray ------------------------------ From: "dearmeyer®" Subject: Re: GDTSTOO - New Year's with Phil Lesh and Friends. Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 15:22:26 -0500 "Dave Kelly" <> wrote in message > BTW...whats your name? > > Do you go to school around here? ------------------------------ Reply-To: "Schmoe" From: "Schmoe" Subject: Review - Susan Tedeschi @ Irving Plaza Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 16:22:36 -0400 Dang, that gal's got pipes! Show started with a opening act Jackie Greene, decent guitar stylist. Susan came on around 10:30 and proceeded to play a quite few songs from her new disc Hope & Desire mixed in with her older stuff. Mike Madison, vocalist for the Derek Trucks Band sang with her for the 1st 1/2 of the set and then left to play a late night set at The Cutting Room a few blocks away (which we caught after Susan's show). Around the middle of Susan's set, she just started really letting loose. You could see the change as she became more comfortable with the fairly crowded room. After 3rd or 4th song, the phenomenal sax player Ron Holloway stepped on stage and stayed the entire show. Always a gift to hear him play and between his wailing away and the excellent quality pianist/keyboardist in her band, this show really swung into high hear. Susan's voice is so truthful and clear, never misses a note and her fills are always just right. My wife & I enjoyed this show immensely and would go see her again in a sec. Fun moment before the show, I was walking downstairs with a friend and went by the lineup of people giving their tickets and Mike Madison was on line. Joking, I queried why he would have to wait in line with a ticket. He was friendly, we chatted about their current European tour and I asked if Derek would be playing with Susan tonight since the DTB was on a 2 week break from Europe. He said no, Derek was at home resting. That would have been real nice. Spoke with him a bit more after his Cutting Room set. Nice guy. I think it was Booie who said Susan ain't much of a guitar player. When she played leads, it looked like a bit of work for her. Her voice is so strong that she really doesn't need to do it. She did a couple of nice leads that I could hear the Derek training straight through it. Couldn't help but wonder what a powerhouse band they could put together with the 2 of them. If you get the chance to see Susan Tedeschi right now, jump at it. She's smokin' hot both musically and visually. FWIW, Irving Plaza pours one helluva healthy cocktail too! ------------------------------ From: "Sparky the Wonder Dog" Subject: Re: what should the United States do with combatants who don't belong to regular armies? Date: 22 Oct 2005 13:31:35 -0700 Ray, Islamic fundamentalism is itself not a trivial problem for Israel locally and America apart from its ties to Israel. And Jewish fundamentalism is not calling the shots in Israel. Neither Palestinian nor Israeli culture and society can, of course, be separated from competing claqims that are in large measure religious. But no, I don't think Israel can win a "holy war" against the entire Arab Islamic world. Then again, I don't think we can go from this or that holy text to believing we know either G-d's inscrutable will or G-d is going to offer support for wars launched to carry out His will. Sharon is continuing a long-standing Israeli policy of defining and defending the historical centers of modern Zionist settlement while attempting to "leap-frog" hostile neighbors and build alliances. Even this is a very hard strategy to accomplish and parts of it have been condemned around the world, let alone expelling the Palestinian population. ------------------------------ From: "Steve Terry" Subject: Re: Thank you, Mr. Postman Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 15:31:41 -0500 "Richard Morris" wrote in message: >I sent some discs and stamps off to Steve Terry for a B&P... and he sent me >back my envelope with music, and returned my postage to me. I know noth-ING! ------------------------------ From: "serveyerself" Subject: LAdder to the Stars Jerry Garcia new cd questions Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 16:51:51 -0400 Does anyone know if this new Jerry has been posted to a binaries group? I would like to download a couple of tracks to see if I like it. I am a marginal Dead/Jerry fan but a big Dylan fan. ------------------------------ From: Joe Subject: Re: drug tests for jobs (NDC) Date: 22 Oct 2005 20:49:09 GMT The Lord of Eltingville wrote: > Joe wrote: > > > > greek_philosophizer@hotmail.com wrote: > > > Librarian is a cool job. > > > > So is being a hippie slacker. > A jet-setting hippie slacker... Well, someone has to do it... Joe ------------------------------ From: pbuzby2002@yahoo.com Subject: Re: LAdder to the Stars Jerry Garcia new cd questions Date: 22 Oct 2005 13:56:27 -0700 serveyerself wrote: > Does anyone know if this new Jerry has been posted to a binaries group? I > would like to download a couple of tracks to see if I like it. I am a > marginal Dead/Jerry fan but a big Dylan fan. The Dead performances are still on the GD archive: "She Belongs To Me" http://www.archive.org/audio/etree-details-db.php?id=11618 "The Mighty Quinn" http://www.archive.org/audio/etree-details-db.php?id=16238 "It's All Over Now Baby Blue" http://www.archive.org/audio/etree-details-db.php?id=11783 "Visions Of Johanna" http://www.archive.org/audio/etree-details-db.php?id=13995 (BTW, there are other sources for these shows, too - I more or less arbitrarily picked these.) Pat Buzby Chicago, IL ------------------------------ From: "Dave Kelly" Subject: Re: Jefferson Starship show? Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 20:56:26 GMT a 90 minute set at 3pm ------------------------------ ** FOR YOUR REFERENCE ** The service addresses, to which questions about the list itself and requests to be added to or deleted from it should be directed, are as follows: Internet: dead-flames-request@gdead.berkeley.edu Bitnet: dead-flames-request%gdead.berkeley.edu@ucbcmsa Uucp: ...!{ucbvax,uunet}!gdead.berkeley.edu!dead-flames-request You can send mail to the entire list (and rec.music.gdead) via one of these addresses: Internet: dead-flames@gdead.berkeley.edu Bitnet: dead-flames%gdead.berkeley.edu@ucbcmsa Uucp: ...!{ucbvax,uunet}!gdead.berkeley.edu!dead-flames End of Dead-Flames Digest ****************************** .