From: Digestifier To: Subject: Dead-Flames Digest #644 Dead-Flames Digest #644, Volume #48 Sat, 22 Oct 05 13:00:01 PDT Contents: Re: Paul McCartney (ndc) (Steve Lenier) Jefferson Starship show? ("Corky") Re: drug tests for jobs (NDC) (Steve Lenier) Re: Thank you, Mr. Postman ("Dave Kelly") Re: what should the United States do with combatants who don't belong to regular armies? ("Ray") Re: I feel weirded out this morning. (RossMcGibbon) Re: what should the United States do with combatants who don't belong to regular armies? ("Ray") Re: Thank you, Mr. Postman ("Richard Morris") Re: I feel weirded out this morning. ("ck") Re: What is a good "B" rated movie? (Steve Lenier) Re: Thank you, Mr. Postman (bigchuck51@aol.com) Re: Open Apology to the RMGD Women ("frndthdevl") Re: Open Apology to the RMGD Women ("ck") Re: Thank you, Mr. Postman ("ck") Re: White House Indictment vigil(NDC) ("Ray") Re: what should the United States do with combatants who don't belong to regular armies? ("Sparky the Wonder Dog") ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 10:51:37 -0700 Subject: Re: Paul McCartney (ndc) From: Steve Lenier in article dO76f.149$EP6.507@eagle.america.net, Everybody's Gonna Be Happy at Davko58@crestviewcable.com wrote on 10/21/05 8:28 AM: > > "John Hanson" wrote in message > news:wZ66f.3088$dO2.1205@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net... >> >> "smack down" wrote in message >> news:17395-4358477F-92@storefull-3116.bay.webtv.net... >>> Hello..... >>> I just saw Paul McCartney in Chicago on 10/18, but I can't seem to find >>> the setlist anywhere. Anybody know what sites I should look for for >>> setlists? Thanks! :) >>> >> rec.music.beatles ought to do it for you. > >> I just bought four tickets to go see Macca at Anaheim. My wife and I >> decided to take my 8 year old daughter for her birthday and allow her to >> bring one of her friends. She only knows the Beatles from the Yellow >> Submarine video but we figured ten years from now she might think it was >> cool to have seen him. At the moment she's still trying to come to grips >> with how he's not really a cartoon and he probably won't sing the >> submarine song. > > You should tell her beforehand that the Paul cartoon never sang the > submarine song. > > That was the Ringo cartoon. > > EGBH > > The Ringo cartoon is one of the reasons I'm a drummer today...not so much the Yellow Submarine Ringo, but the weekly Saturday morning weekly cartoon Ringo. John, how much did you have to pay for those tix? I'd check this show out if it wasn't too much, but I'm guessing it's way more than I want to spend. Steve (I've got a hole in me pocket). ------------------------------ From: "Corky" Subject: Jefferson Starship show? Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 17:52:23 GMT I see that the Jerry Garcia Ampitheater site has the JS playing there next sat. with Grapefruit Ed, Wavy, ect...but there is no mention of the show on the JS website. Anyone know if the show is on for sure? Corky ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 10:54:34 -0700 Subject: Re: drug tests for jobs (NDC) From: Steve Lenier in article gW76f.150$EP6.742@eagle.america.net, Everybody's Gonna Be Happy at Davko58@crestviewcable.com wrote on 10/21/05 8:36 AM: > Of course I depend on my employer > of 24 years for my health care in retirement, so they aren't THAT bad in the > end. IIAAHSWYPII? Steve ------------------------------ From: "Dave Kelly" Subject: Re: Thank you, Mr. Postman Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 17:59:05 GMT "Richard Morris" wrote in message news:UL6dnZYbs_9d58fenZ2dnUVZ_s-dnZ2d@comcast.com... >I sent some discs and stamps off to Steve Terry for a B&P... and he sent me >back my envelope with music, and returned my postage to me. Post office >forgot to cancel the stamps on the way to him so he didn't need to use the >extra postage. But they also did not cancel the stamps on the way back to >me. So I am sending stuff to Tony in New Joisey with them. So that makes >three trips on one set of stamps. How do you sleep at night? Disgusted in Detroit ------------------------------ From: "Ray" Subject: Re: what should the United States do with combatants who don't belong to regular armies? Date: 22 Oct 2005 11:08:36 -0700 ck wrote: > "Sparky the Wonder Dog" wrote in message > news:1129995526.749009.321610@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... > > "Uh, what we're thinkin' about is a peaceful planet. We're not > > thinkin' about anything else. We're not thinkin' about any kind of > > power, we're not thinkin' about any of those kind of struggles. We're > > not thinkin about revolution or war or any of that. That's not what we > > want. Nobody wants to get hurt. Nobody wants to hurt anybody. We would > > all like to be able to live an uncluttered life. A simple life, a good > > life, you know, and like think about moving the whole human race ahead > > a step or a few steps. (Interjection by band members: "or half a step > > or anything. More positive".) At least not going around in circles > > like it is now." > > --Jerry Garcia, 1967 > > > > now if only the islamists out for world domination would take that to heart > there'd be no need for us to take up arms... This, from a guy who advocates for committing genocide against Palestinians if, after given two days to comply, they don't evacuate from the West Bank and Gaza. Look in a mirror, Chris. Ray ------------------------------ From: RossMcGibbon Subject: Re: I feel weirded out this morning. Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 19:06:20 +0100 Why not get your friend to ebay them? I've done that with left over tickets & been embarrassed by how much they've made. (And I have lost out once too). Ross >> cpkver8@BURDENadelphia.net >> (ck) wrote: >> 4000s are the upper section. >> 300's were $179.00 plus a $20.00 convenience charge plus if you chose >> two day UPS an additional $20.00 >> here's a scan of my ticket; http://members.roadfly.org/jehu/cream.JPG >> you can see the face value price. >> My friend bought these during the presale American Express Gold card >> member courtesy sale so figuring in his additional costs and his own >> courtesy charge he's asking $200.00 not an unreasonable price >> these were the best seats obtainable in this price range. The lower >> seats were >> I think around $350.00 -- RossMcGibbon ------------------------------ From: "Ray" Subject: Re: what should the United States do with combatants who don't belong to regular armies? Date: 22 Oct 2005 11:10:35 -0700 Everybody's Gonna Be Happy wrote: > "Sparky the Wonder Dog" wrote in message > news:1129914337.708194.275550@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... > > > Saying that these Americans are "innocent until proven guilty" > > basically moves them into civilian courts or would courts martial meet > > that standard? There is some review even at Guantanamo. > > > The precedent was intentionally set by President George Washington during > the Whiskey Rebellion in western PA. > > Some, including his attorney general and treasury secretary (who actually > led the troops sent to PA), That Hamilton sure got around. > urged harsh measures against those involved in > this armed rebellion against the United States. > > Instead of drumhead military courts followed by hangings at the nearest > tree, Washington ordered that the main instigators be tried in civilian, not > military courts. Some rebels were killed in combat with US troops and > various state militias called to the area, some were executed at the scene > of their crimes by military officers, but those arrested were treated as > American citizens who violated the law, which of course is exactly what they > were. Some were convicted and hanged; but only after a fair trial by a jury > of their peers. > > Washington chose this route on purpose. Jefferson, Madison, and the other > Republicans of the time feared and protested mightily against a standing > army with the power to enforce domestic laws. Giving them the power to try > US citizens was a huge issue at the time. Washington realized that to keep > the peace in the future he couldn't give the military this power. They were > to be used to defend the nation agaisnt foreign aggressors and to put down > armed rebellion at home. But once the fighting stopped it was up to > civilian courts to decide guilt and mete out punishment. To do otherwise > would divide the country and raise the question of just what the American > Revolution was all about. The British military ran amok in the colonies. > Washington was tired of comparisons with King George and realized the > consequences of giving the military the power to try US citizens. HRYK. > That precedent is good enough for me. Me too. Ray ------------------------------ From: "Richard Morris" Subject: Re: Thank you, Mr. Postman Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 11:22:24 -0700 "Dave Kelly" wrote in message news:J5v6f.5530$q%.4288@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com... > > "Richard Morris" wrote in message > news:UL6dnZYbs_9d58fenZ2dnUVZ_s-dnZ2d@comcast.com... >>I sent some discs and stamps off to Steve Terry for a B&P... and he sent >>me back my envelope with music, and returned my postage to me. Post >>office forgot to cancel the stamps on the way to him so he didn't need to >>use the extra postage. But they also did not cancel the stamps on the way >>back to me. So I am sending stuff to Tony in New Joisey with them. So >>that makes three trips on one set of stamps. > > How do you sleep at night? Well, I generally just lay down in bed and sort of drift off. Why ... am I doing it wrong? R. ------------------------------ From: "ck" Subject: Re: I feel weirded out this morning. Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 14:28:40 -0400 "RossMcGibbon" wrote in message news:fKuHnBBc+nWDJwsG@areth.demon.co.uk... > Why not get your friend to ebay them? > I've done that with left over tickets & been embarrassed by how much > they've made. (And I have lost out once too). > > Ross > > >> cpkver8@BURDENadelphia.net > >> (ck) wrote: > >> 4000s are the upper section. > >> 300's were $179.00 plus a $20.00 convenience charge plus if you chose > >> two day UPS an additional $20.00 > >> here's a scan of my ticket; http://members.roadfly.org/jehu/cream.JPG > >> you can see the face value price. > >> My friend bought these during the presale American Express Gold card > >> member courtesy sale so figuring in his additional costs and his own > >> courtesy charge he's asking $200.00 not an unreasonable price > >> these were the best seats obtainable in this price range. The lower > >> seats were > >> I think around $350.00 > > -- > RossMcGibbon I have had them on ebay for several days asking just cost. One person has the auction page watched but no inquiries and i'm accepting best offers. See auctions; http://urlcut.com/1bgox http://urlcut.com/1bgoy I know there's been a poor review published but from waht i heard of the RAH shows the guy had unreasonable expectations and was judgeing this reunion against their peakin '67-'68 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 11:34:26 -0700 Subject: Re: What is a good "B" rated movie? From: Steve Lenier in article 1129920748.552085.290640@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com, pbleers@hotmail.com at pbleers@hotmail.com wrote on 10/21/05 11:52 AM: > ""In my personal top ten movies of all time: Dirty Mary Crazy Larry."" > > I saw the coming attractions for this at the movies when I was a kid. I > never forgot it-it looked so damn cool. Didnt know that was Peter > Fonda. > > Here's a B movie hint.....any flick with Harry Dean Stanton in it, its > almost assuredly a B flick. Him and Clint Howard both are benchmarks > for Bs. "Ticks" has a classic Clint Howard freak out that is hilarious. > > I'm into the psychotronic/monster/biker B movies......Wild Angels, > Attack of the Mushroom People, The Manster, anything associated with > Roger Corman, Russ Myers or some guy named Zarkoff (I think) is gonna > get my attention. > > Yeah, its complete trash and most likely rotting my mind but so what, > its fun. > OH, this jogged my memory to the fact that no one yet has mentioned Attack of the Killer Tomatoes. Steve ------------------------------ From: bigchuck51@aol.com Subject: Re: Thank you, Mr. Postman Date: 22 Oct 2005 11:43:23 -0700 I have found out over the years that between 1 in 3 and 1 in 4 BnP packages come back with uncancelled postage, must be a buncha Deadhead at the Post Office 'cause I usually put dates on the envelopes. or it could just be incompetance. I like to think Deadheads though. later- ------------------------------ From: "frndthdevl" Subject: Re: Open Apology to the RMGD Women Date: 22 Oct 2005 11:46:08 -0700 The Iron Muffin wrote: > Crissy Heresy wrote: > > the wharf rat wrote: > > > The Iron Muffin wrote: > > > > > Baah. It's useless talking to ewe people. > > > > > > > Who asked you to butt in anyway? > > > > apprently he didn't read or comprehend > > > > It's a pun thread, ya stupid douchebag. isn't to "butt in" going with the sheep,and goat thing? > > Talk about your lack of reading comprehension... > > -- > The Iron Muffin > > DEAD FREAKS UNITE > > Who are you? Where are you? > > How are you? ------------------------------ From: "ck" Subject: Re: Open Apology to the RMGD Women Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 14:56:21 -0400 "frndthdevl" wrote in message news:1130006768.907248.291360@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... > > The Iron Muffin wrote: > > Crissy Heresy wrote: > > > the wharf rat wrote: > > > > The Iron Muffin wrote: > > > > > > > Baah. It's useless talking to ewe people. > > > > > > > > > Who asked you to butt in anyway? > > > > > > apprently he didn't read or comprehend > > > > > > > > It's a pun thread, ya stupid douchebag. > > > isn't to "butt in" going with the sheep,and goat thing? > > > > > > Talk about your lack of reading comprehension... > > > > -- > > The Iron Muffin > > > > DEAD FREAKS UNITE > > > > Who are you? Where are you? > > > > How are you? > It is , but i guess i had Rams in mind and their violent head butting and as i associate the Tin Pastry with the effeminate nature of female farm animals i didn't immediately see the connection but rather thought the warftrat was as fed up with his shit as everyone else. ------------------------------ From: "ck" Subject: Re: Thank you, Mr. Postman Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 14:58:46 -0400 wrote in message news:1130006603.294465.276300@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... > I have found out over the years that between 1 in 3 and 1 in 4 BnP > packages come back with uncancelled postage, must be a buncha Deadhead > at the Post Office 'cause I usually put dates on the envelopes. or it > could just be incompetance. I like to think Deadheads though. later- > i think as they see it is a package in constant transit never having a finla desination they aren't required to cancel it . Those mailers with dozens of address labels and centimeters of old tape are a dead giveaway... ------------------------------ From: "Ray" Subject: Re: White House Indictment vigil(NDC) Date: 22 Oct 2005 12:00:22 -0700 Carlisle wrote: > I still don't know why > this is as big of a scandle as it's turned out to be. Valerie Plame was > not a covert agent in harm's way. Again -- and contrary to disinformation from right-wing rags like the National Review and their 'leader' Rush Limbaugh -- it is highly likely that Plame was a covert agent. When she was outed she wasn't in "harm's way", this much is true. However in the bigger picture that fact - repeated ad nauseum by the right-wing propaganda machine - makes little difference: the outing of *any* CIA agent - in "harm's way" or otherwise - has a substantial adverse impact on our national security. Moreover, so does every instance where the right-wing propaganda/disinformation machine downplays this fundamental fact. Former CIA case officer and prosecutor James Marcinkowski explains why: ======================================================== Testimony of James Marcinkowski (July 22, 2005 - covered on CSPAN3) What is important now is not who wins or loses the political battle or who may or may not be indicted; rather, it is a question of how we will go about protecting the citizens of this country in a very dangerous world. The undisputed fact is that we have irreparably damaged our capability to collect human intelligence and thereby significantly diminished our capability to protect the American people. Understandable to all Americans is a simple, incontrovertible, but damning truth: the United States government exposed the identity of a clandestine officer working for the CIA. This is not just another partisan "dust-up" between political parties. This unprecedented act will have far-reaching consequences for covert operations around the world. Equally disastrous is that from the time of that first damning act, we have continued on a course of self-inflicted wounds by government officials who have refused to take any responsibility, have played hide-and-seek with the truth and engaged in semantic parlor games for more than two years, all at the expense of the safety of the American people. No government official has that right. For an understanding of what is at stake it is important to understand some fundamental principles. No country or hostile group, from al Qaeda to any drug rings operating in our cities, likes to be infiltrated or spied upon. The CIA, much like any police department in any city, has undercover officers--spies, that use "cover." To operate under "cover" means you use some ruse to cloak both your identity and your intentions. The degree of cover needed to carry out any operation varies depending on the target of the investigation. A police officer performing "street buys" uses a "light" cover, meaning he or she could pose as something as simple as a drug user, operate only at night and during the day and, believe it or not, have a desk job in the police station. On the other hand, if an attempt were made to infiltrate a crime syndicate, visiting the local police station or drinking with fellow FBI agents after work may be out of the question. In any scenario, your cover, no matter what the degree, provides personal protection and safety. But it does not end there. Cover is also used to protect collection methodology as well as any innocent persons a CIA officer may have regular contact with, such as overseas acquaintances, friends, and even other U.S. government officials. While cover provides a degree of safety for the case officer, it also provides security for that officer's informants or agents. In most human intelligence operations, the confidentiality of the cover used by a CIA officer and the personal security of the agent or asset is mutually dependent. A case officer cannot be identified as working for the CIA, just as the informant/agent cannot be identified as working for the CIA through the case officer. If an informant or agent is exposed as working for the CIA, there is a good chance that the CIA officer has been identified as well. Similarly, if the CIA officer is exposed, his or her agents or informants are exposed. In all cases, the cover of a case officer ensures not only his or her own personal safety but that of the agents or assets as well. The exposure of Valerie Plame's cover by the White House is the same as the local chief of police announcing to the media the identity of its undercover drug officers. In both cases, the ability of the officer to operate is destroyed, but there is also an added dimension. An informant in a major sophisticated crime network, or a CIA asset working in a foreign government, if exposed, has a rather good chance of losing more than just their ability to operate. Any undercover officer, whether in the police department or the CIA, will tell you that the major concern of their informant or agent is their personal safety and that of their family. Cover is safety. If you cannot guarantee that safety in some form or other, the person will not work for you and the source of important information will be lost. So how is the Valerie Plame incident perceived by any current or potential agent of the CIA? I will guarantee you that if the local police chief identified the names of the department's undercover officers, any half-way sophisticated undercover operation would come to a halt and if he survived that accidental discharge of a weapon in police headquarters, would be asked to retire. And so the real issues before this Congress and this country today is not partisan politics, not even the loss of secrets. The secrets of Valerie Plame's cover are long gone. What has suffered perhaps irreversible damage is the credibility of our case officers when they try to convince our overseas contact that their safety is of primary importance to us. How are our case officers supposed to build and maintain that confidence when their own government cannot even guarantee the personal protection of the home team? While the loss of secrets in the world of espionage may be damaging, the stealing of the credibility of our CIA officers is unforgivable.... And so we are left with only one fundamental truth, the U.S. government exposed the identity of a covert operative. I am not convinced that the toothpaste can be put back into the tube. Great damage has been done and that damage has been increasing every single day for more than two years. The problem of the refusal to accept responsibility by senior government officials is ongoing and causing greater damage to our national security and our ability to collect human intelligence. But the problem lies not only with government officials but also with the media, commentators and other apologists who have no clue as to the workings of the intelligence community. Think about what we are doing from the perspective of our overseas human intelligence assets or potential assets. I believe Bob Novak when he credited senior administration officials for the initial leak, or the simple, but not insignificant confirmation of that secret information, as I believe a CIA officer in some far away country will lose an opportunity to recruit an asset that may be of invaluable service to our covert war on terror because "promises of protection" will no longer carry the level of trust they once had. Each time the leader of a political party opens his mouth in public to deflect responsibility, the word overseas is loud and clear--politics in this country does in fact trump national security. Each time a distinguished ambassador is ruthlessly attacked for the information he provided, a foreign asset will contemplate why he should risk his life when his information will not be taken seriously. Each time there is a perceived political "success" in deflecting responsibility by debating or re-debating some minutia, such actions are equally effective in undermining the ability of this country to protect itself against its enemies, because the two are indeed related. Each time the political machine made up of prime-time patriots and partisan ninnies display their ignorance by deriding Valerie Plame as a mere "paper-pusher," or belittling the varying degrees of cover used to protect our officers, or continuing to play partisan politics with our national security, it is a disservice to this country. By ridiculing, for example, the "degree" of cover or the use of post office boxes, you lessen the level of confidence that foreign nationals place in our covert capabilities. Those who would advocate the "I'm ok, you're ok" politics of non-responsibility, should probably think about the impact of those actions on our foreign agents. Non-responsibility means we don't care. Not caring means a loss of security. A loss of security means a loss of an agent. The loss of an agent means the loss of information. The loss of information means an increase in the risk to the people of the United States. There is a very serious message here. Before you shine up your American flag lapel pin and affix your patriotism to your sleeve, think about what the impact your actions will have on the security of the American people. Think about whether your partisan obfuscation is creating confidence in the United States in general and the CIA in particular. If not, a true patriot would shut up. Those who take pride in their political ability to divert the issue from the fundamental truth ought to be prepared to take their share of the responsibility for the continuing damage done to our national security. When this unprecedented act first occurred, the president could have immediately demanded the resignation of all persons even tangentially involved. Or, at a minimum, he could have suspended the security clearances of these persons and placed them on administrative leave. Such methods are routine with police forces throughout the country. That would have at least sent the right message around the globe, that we take the security of those risking their lives on behalf of the United States seriously. Instead, we have flooded the foreign airwaves with two years of inaction, political rhetoric, ignorance, and partisan bickering. That's the wrong message. In doing so we have not lessened, but increased the threat to the security and safety of the people of the United States. --- http://www.thenation.com/blogs/capitalgames?bid=3&pid=7948 ------------------------------ From: "Sparky the Wonder Dog" Subject: Re: what should the United States do with combatants who don't belong to regular armies? Date: 22 Oct 2005 12:01:48 -0700 re: "This, from a guy who advocates for committing genocide against Palestinians if, after given two days to comply, they don't evacuate from the West Bank and Gaza. Look in a mirror, Chris" Is this CK's stated position or are folks extrapolating?. ------------------------------ ** FOR YOUR REFERENCE ** The service addresses, to which questions about the list itself and requests to be added to or deleted from it should be directed, are as follows: Internet: dead-flames-request@gdead.berkeley.edu Bitnet: dead-flames-request%gdead.berkeley.edu@ucbcmsa Uucp: ...!{ucbvax,uunet}!gdead.berkeley.edu!dead-flames-request You can send mail to the entire list (and rec.music.gdead) via one of these addresses: Internet: dead-flames@gdead.berkeley.edu Bitnet: dead-flames%gdead.berkeley.edu@ucbcmsa Uucp: ...!{ucbvax,uunet}!gdead.berkeley.edu!dead-flames End of Dead-Flames Digest ****************************** .