From: Digestifier To: Subject: Dead-Flames Digest #507 Dead-Flames Digest #507, Volume #48 Thu, 6 Oct 05 02:00:01 PDT Contents: Re: One man takes on the scalpers (DG) Re: One man takes on the scalpers (DG) Re: One man takes on the scalpers (DG) Better Sox win again... (DG) Re: Favorite Space ("ck") Re: One man takes on the scalpers ("ck") Re: One man takes on the scalpers (DG) Re: One man takes on the scalpers (Brad Greer) Re: Favorite Space ("The Iron Muffin") Re: David Bowie 7-29-90 b&p (DVD AUDIO ONLY) ("Zakyfarms") I'm quitting my job.... (Ben) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DG Subject: Re: One man takes on the scalpers Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2005 21:48:00 -0700 Brad Greer wrote: > >DG wrote: > >>DGDevin wrote: >>> >>>DG wrote >>> >>>> What is corrupt about two people agreeing on a price? >>> >>>So when Enron and other companies engineered power shortages in California >>>and hiked up the price of electricity, did consumers "agree" to those >>>prices? >> >> >>Of course not... We were talking about tickets to a concert. >> >> >>>Did you "agree" to gas going over three bucks a gallon? >> >> >>I rarely buy gasoline so it doesn't matter to me. I'm not upset with >>gas stations because they are acting as a middle man. >> >> >>>How >>>exactly did consumers "agree" to see up to two thirds of the tickets to >>>popular concerts or shows or sporting events held back from public sale at >>>the prices printed on the tickets and instead go to brokers who would >>>increase the selling price several hundred percent? >> >> >>Obfuscation... The consumer either buys the ticket at the seller's >>price or doesn't. >> >> >>>"Corruption" is fairly >>>easy to spot when an Attorney General's Office known for busting corporate >>>misbehavior says the diversion of tickets from public access is widespread, >>>that the public *never* has a chance to buy many tickets at face value, or >>>does the payment of bribes to hijack a scarce commodity not bring to mind >>>the word "corruption" for you? >> >> >>Why the quotes on corruption? Shouldn't you also be able to drive up >>to a refinery and fill your tank up at a cut price? > >There's a difference, a big one. Refineries don't sell to the general >public - they sell to gas stations who then sell to the general >public. That is the system that is set up. The gas stations provide >convenience, and thus value, to the overall equation - it's unlikely >refineries would be as widely dispersed as gas stations are so the >consumer has a choice on buying gas near their home. In addition, the >gas stations are designed to sell about a tank ful of gas at a time, >they take credit cards, they often have convenience stores associated >with them, etc. By providing value to the consumer the gas station is >earning the markup (which, btw, is considerably less than several >times their cost). > >Concert tickets are "offiically" sold to the general public. However, >scalpers (and I consider "ticket brokers" to be scalpers the same way >call girls are hookers) get access to tickets *intended* for the >general public. The scalpers add no value to the tickets - they are >no more convenient than buying tickets directly, especially now that >you can buy tickets for everything on the Internet. At least some >scalpers provide bogus tickets, something you never have to worry >about from an official ticket distributor, they simply decrease the >supply available to the public at the price the artist and promoter >set (creating an artificial shortage) and mark their price up by >several times in many cases. > >Obfuscation on your part, and I suspect intentionally. Why not... ------------------------------ From: DG Subject: Re: One man takes on the scalpers Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2005 21:51:05 -0700 Brad Greer wrote: > >DG wrote: > >>Brad Greer wrote: >>> >>>DG wrote: >>> >>>>DGDevin wrote: >>>>> >>>>>DG wrote >>>>> >>>>>> So you doubt what I've written above? You eat concerts and enjoy >>>>>> listening to food? >>>>> >>>>>Man does not live by bread alone. Just because something isn't vital to >>>>>survival isn't a reason to tolerate corruption. >>>> >>>> >>>>What is corrupt about two people agreeing on a price? >>> >>>The person setting the price had access the person buying the tickets >>>doesn't >> >> >>Really? > >Yes. Read the NY State AG report (link posted elsewhere in this >thread). > >>>- the scalper often gets tickets by paying off people in the >>>ticketing service or box office. That is corrupt. The scalper is not >>>adding value, if the scalper didn't get access to tickets before the >>>general public than more tickets would be available to the free market >>>so a more realistic price could be set. >> >> >>Fair price is where supply meets demand. > >Why shouldn't the artist and promoter have the right to set the price >they would like their fans to pay? They don't? AFAIK, they set the price. >When a supply of tickets intended >for the general public is taken out of circulation before it hits the >intended market than you are not really dealing with fair prices and >supply and demand. But you refuse to address this point thus far. What's to address? The aftermarket exists and the prices are fair. ------------------------------ From: DG Subject: Re: One man takes on the scalpers Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2005 22:00:19 -0700 Brad Greer wrote: > >DG wrote: > >>Brad Greer wrote: >>> >>>DG wrote: >>>> >>>>We are talking about a luxury item. It's not like people need a show >>>>to survive. >>>> >>>>Wasting the court's time with this type of crap is horrible. >>>> >>>Could you please outlines the times when you think corruption is okay? >> >> >>What is corrupt about buying a ticket in the aftermarket? > >My comment had nothing to do with whether or not buying tickets in the >aftermarket represents corruption. Rather, you stated that since >tickets are a luxury item whether or not the system of ticket >distribution is corrupt isn't important. No I didn't. Luxury markets are fickle so I expect exorbitant prices. >So, please outline when >corruption is okay because it clearly isn't an issue to you when it >comes to tickets to concerts and sporting events. Are there other >times when you feel corruption is okay? How does systematic >corruption play with your support of the free market? What is your ideal system? >>>Where do we draw the line? You seem to agree that "scalping" food >>>would be a bad thing, but what about gourmet food? >> >> >>I don't agree with that. >> >>Gourmet food is a luxury item so you pay more for it. I see nothing >>wrong with it. > >I'm not talking about charging more for gourmet food in general, I'm >asking if it was okay by you if someone were to "scalp" luxury food. Like when you get a car service to pick it up for you? I don't have a problem with that. >>>If you claim to be >>>in favor of a free market than you should be upset at anything that >>>disrupts the free market. >> >> >>A free market economy is an economy in which the allocation for >>resources is determined only by their supply and the demand for them. > >And the ticket market is not a true supply and demand when scalpers >can artificially decrease supply (by not allowing people to buy >tickets at the price set by the promoter/artist). What is artificial about them holding supply? They are speculators. Sometimes they win, sometimes they lose. Do you get upset when they sell a ticket for less than face? >>>The NY State AG report clearly shows the >>>ticket industry is not a truly free market. Apparently, that's okay >>>with you. As you say, down with free market economics (or econimics, >>>if you prefer). >> >> >>If you don't want to pay too much for a ticket then don't. > >I don't buy from scalpers. But it pisses me off that someone who adds >nothing of value to the price of a ticket has more access to those >tickets than I do and charges too much for them. The value they add is the aftermarket. ------------------------------ From: DG Subject: Better Sox win again... Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2005 22:01:58 -0700 Nice... I'm glad to have the NHL back. Flyers lose as well. ------------------------------ From: "ck" Subject: Re: Favorite Space Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 01:09:56 -0400 "Carlisle" wrote in message news:1128572842.715448.53170@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... > > The Iron Muffin wrote: > > Seth Jackson wrote: > > > > > What? Nobody's mentioned 10/15/83 yet? > > > > Heh. > > > > Good call. > > > > -- > > The Iron Muffin > > > > DEAD FREAKS UNITE > > > > Who are you? Where are you? > > > > How are you? > > Space--10/15/83>>> > What makes it extraordinary? > cc > who knows but it wasn't like the year before...... "Nothing but sin and no salvation, Lots of fun......" ------------------------------ From: "ck" Subject: Re: One man takes on the scalpers Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 01:16:38 -0400 "Brad Greer" wrote in message news:9c99k1lgd44bf0bsn63e2inn4a0a5kd7ld@4ax.com... > On Wed, 05 Oct 2005 12:43:21 -0700, DG wrote: > > >Brad Greer wrote: > >> > >>DG wrote: > >> > >>>DGDevin wrote: > >>>> > >>>>DG wrote > >>>> > >>>>> So you doubt what I've written above? You eat concerts and enjoy > >>>>> listening to food? > >>>> > >>>>Man does not live by bread alone. Just because something isn't vital to > >>>>survival isn't a reason to tolerate corruption. > >>> > >>> > >>>What is corrupt about two people agreeing on a price? > >> > >>The person setting the price had access the person buying the tickets > >>doesn't > > > > > >Really? > > Yes. Read the NY State AG report (link posted elsewhere in this > thread). > > >>- the scalper often gets tickets by paying off people in the > >>ticketing service or box office. That is corrupt. The scalper is not > >>adding value, if the scalper didn't get access to tickets before the > >>general public than more tickets would be available to the free market > >>so a more realistic price could be set. > > > > > >Fair price is where supply meets demand. > > > Why shouldn't the artist and promoter have the right to set the price > they would like their fans to pay? When a supply of tickets intended > for the general public is taken out of circulation before it hits the > intended market than you are not really dealing with fair prices and > supply and demand. But you refuse to address this point thus far. Obviously as long as the artist gets what they demand they don't care who buys them .Take this Cream event. TM offered tix for a whole week to AMEX gold card holders exclusively before letting the rest of the tickets be sold.That was prearranged by the band and their promotors. Take a peek on ebay and see what's there. Actually the bulk of the tickets being bought there are selling for a very small if any profit.Sure some,mainly floor seats and that's a another story, have sold for more than double their face value but why should that bother you? They do limit your purcahes don't they? If theres' corruption in the box office is that any more of a shick than corruption in the whitehouse? Please this is Earth,none are righteous. ------------------------------ From: DG Subject: Re: One man takes on the scalpers Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2005 22:22:45 -0700 ck wrote: > > Obviously as long as the artist gets what they demand they don't care who >buys them .Take this Cream event. TM offered tix for a whole week to AMEX >gold card holders exclusively before letting the rest of the tickets be >sold.That was prearranged by the band and their promotors. Take a peek on >ebay and see what's there. Actually the bulk of the tickets being bought >there are selling for a very small if any profit.Sure some,mainly floor >seats and that's a another story, have sold for more than double their face >value but why should that bother you? They do limit your purcahes don't >they? If theres' corruption in the box office is that any more of a shick >than corruption in the whitehouse? Please this is Earth,none are righteous. Right... When I lived in Mountain View, I could buy tickets the day before the show went on sale to the general public. For that benefit we also had to deal with the noise and traffic. ------------------------------ From: Brad Greer Subject: Re: One man takes on the scalpers Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2005 01:54:50 -0400 On Wed, 05 Oct 2005 22:00:19 -0700, DG wrote: >Brad Greer wrote: >> >>DG wrote: >> >>>Brad Greer wrote: >>>> >>>>DG wrote: >>>>> >>>>>We are talking about a luxury item. It's not like people need a show >>>>>to survive. >>>>> >>>>>Wasting the court's time with this type of crap is horrible. >>>>> >>>>Could you please outlines the times when you think corruption is okay? >>> >>> >>>What is corrupt about buying a ticket in the aftermarket? >> >>My comment had nothing to do with whether or not buying tickets in the >>aftermarket represents corruption. Rather, you stated that since >>tickets are a luxury item whether or not the system of ticket >>distribution is corrupt isn't important. > > >No I didn't. Luxury markets are fickle so I expect exorbitant prices. > > >>So, please outline when >>corruption is okay because it clearly isn't an issue to you when it >>comes to tickets to concerts and sporting events. Are there other >>times when you feel corruption is okay? How does systematic >>corruption play with your support of the free market? > > >What is your ideal system? > > >>>>Where do we draw the line? You seem to agree that "scalping" food >>>>would be a bad thing, but what about gourmet food? >>> >>> >>>I don't agree with that. >>> >>>Gourmet food is a luxury item so you pay more for it. I see nothing >>>wrong with it. >> >>I'm not talking about charging more for gourmet food in general, I'm >>asking if it was okay by you if someone were to "scalp" luxury food. > > >Like when you get a car service to pick it up for you? I don't have a >problem with that. > > >>>>If you claim to be >>>>in favor of a free market than you should be upset at anything that >>>>disrupts the free market. >>> >>> >>>A free market economy is an economy in which the allocation for >>>resources is determined only by their supply and the demand for them. >> >>And the ticket market is not a true supply and demand when scalpers >>can artificially decrease supply (by not allowing people to buy >>tickets at the price set by the promoter/artist). > > >What is artificial about them holding supply? > >They are speculators. Sometimes they win, sometimes they lose. Do >you get upset when they sell a ticket for less than face? > > >>>>The NY State AG report clearly shows the >>>>ticket industry is not a truly free market. Apparently, that's okay >>>>with you. As you say, down with free market economics (or econimics, >>>>if you prefer). >>> >>> >>>If you don't want to pay too much for a ticket then don't. >> >>I don't buy from scalpers. But it pisses me off that someone who adds >>nothing of value to the price of a ticket has more access to those >>tickets than I do and charges too much for them. > > >The value they add is the aftermarket. They create an aftermarket that doesn't necessarily need to exist. I'm done with this conversation as it's highly unlikely either of us is going to change their mind, so why continue to waste time? ------------------------------ Reply-To: "The Iron Muffin" From: "The Iron Muffin" Subject: Re: Favorite Space Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 02:43:01 -0400 Carlisle wrote: > The Iron Muffin wrote: > > Seth Jackson wrote: > > > What? Nobody's mentioned 10/15/83 yet? > > > > Heh. > > > > Good call. > > Space--10/15/83>>> > What makes it extraordinary? http://www.archive.org/audio/etree-details-db.php?id=15387 Give it a listen and find out for yourself. -- The Iron Muffin DEAD FREAKS UNITE Who are you? Where are you? How are you? ------------------------------ From: "Zakyfarms" Subject: Re: David Bowie 7-29-90 b&p (DVD AUDIO ONLY) Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2005 07:14:19 GMT Adrian Belew is in King Crimson, starting in 1981. I recommend Discipline. He was also in Talking Heads for their 1980-1981 tour. I recommend The Name Of This Band Is Talking Heads. "ba ba booie" wrote in message news:26377-434490DC-129@storefull-3271.bay.webtv.net... > David Bowie 7-29-90 b&p (DVD AUDIO ONLY) > > > I was going through my analog masters and thought I would put this one > out there if anyone wanted it. This was taped by me at the show. This > was taped on a Maxell Metal tape recorded on a Sony D6 with a single > stereo microphone. > Had to do it stealth. ; ) > It's sounds decent. > > I am dubbing it onto 1 (one) DVD. > > This was at Giants Stadium in NJ. > This was a great show!!! > I like David Bowie. > > As I look at the date of this show, > I am thinking, I just came off summer tour with The Grateful Dead and > the news of Brent was still lingering in my mind. > Oh I needed music to sooth my bones. > > Then it was off to Europe after Bowie for the GD shows there. > My head/mind was in a twirl. > > How many days was this show after Brent passed? Geezzz back on the > saddle. > So much for mourning. > > I went to see Bowie. > > I did the best I could on the recording with what I had. And for how BIG > the stadium is. It usually sounds bad in there. Except for Pink Floyd > and older GD with Dan Healy behind the controls. > > Adrian Belew was the guitarist for this show. I liked his style of > playing. > Any good CD's of Adrian Belew to get that is sweet stuff? What band was > he in? > I forgot. He was good though. > > I remember when Stevie Ray was > in Bowie's band for a bit. > > > Anyway it is up for a b&p. > > > DVD (AUDIO ONLY) > David Bowie @ Giants Stadium > 7-29-90 > East Rutherford, New Jersey > METAL analog tape>D6>DVD > > > Fucking 15 years ago. > Ma ma lousha > ~My life is drifting away~ > > > booie........ > > > ps. > 1990 wasn't that bad of a year. > It had it's up's & downs. > I guess that goes for all years? > > This year sucked!!! ; ) 2005 > > Ask anybody in the Gulf Coast. > > I will let you know after Kimock tour. > ~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > please stop me > > I am done... > > . > > . > Have you checked these sites out today? > http://www.jambase.com > http://www.jambands.com > http://www.jambase.com/festivals > . > Find out where your favorite band is playing. > Pollstar (The concert hotwire) http://www.pollstar.com > ------------------------------ From: Ben Subject: I'm quitting my job.... Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2005 01:12:55 -0700 I've been criticized for bitching about my job here before, but I'm finally quitting it. I'm sort of counting my chickens before they hatch, but I believe I'll get this one with no major problems and when I do, I'll get an effective salary increase of up to 66%. All I can say is 'fuck yeah' and 'fuck you' to my current boss. Plus, with this new job, I'll be about an hour away from Red Rocks. How's that for a fringe benefit? ------------------------------ ** FOR YOUR REFERENCE ** The service addresses, to which questions about the list itself and requests to be added to or deleted from it should be directed, are as follows: Internet: dead-flames-request@gdead.berkeley.edu Bitnet: dead-flames-request%gdead.berkeley.edu@ucbcmsa Uucp: ...!{ucbvax,uunet}!gdead.berkeley.edu!dead-flames-request You can send mail to the entire list (and rec.music.gdead) via one of these addresses: Internet: dead-flames@gdead.berkeley.edu Bitnet: dead-flames%gdead.berkeley.edu@ucbcmsa Uucp: ...!{ucbvax,uunet}!gdead.berkeley.edu!dead-flames End of Dead-Flames Digest ****************************** .