From: Digestifier To: Subject: Dead-Flames Digest #467 Dead-Flames Digest #467, Volume #48 Sat, 1 Oct 05 19:00:02 PDT Contents: Re: Slipknot! ("starkers") Re: Books n' in-Tuition ("BVT") Re: We're Excited (NDC) (Steve Lenier) Re: Slipknot! ("starkers") Re: "Blows Against The Empire" re-re-reissue ("David Gans") Re: Interesting take on Iraq... (joker4153@comcast.net) What is a good unplugged video to get? (ba ba booie) Re: Republicans are scum (Tom Beck) Re: Slipknot! ("Jerry Lobrowski") I tried to grow a beard ("Jerry Lobrowski") Re: Mix suggestions to introduce newbie ("garciyalater@hotmail.com") Re: Interesting take on Iraq... ("Richard Morris") Re: Slipknot! ("starkers") Re: What is a good unplugged video to get? (Ken Fortenberry) Re: I tried to grow a beard (cj) Those bloodthirsty Democrats ... ("Richard Morris") Comes a Time Benefit - NoB NoP ("Steve Terry") Playboy After Dark DVD B+P ("seraphim") Re: Those bloodthirsty Democrats ... ("Everybody's Gonna Be Happy") Re: Those bloodthirsty Democrats ... ("Richard Morris") ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "starkers" Subject: Re: Slipknot! Date: 1 Oct 2005 13:48:52 -0700 Jerry Lobrowski wrote: > They have a new live album coming out followed by a theatre tour. I > have seen them a few times, they always put on an awesome show. Are > there any Slipknot fans here? No maggots here, JL. Other board. ------------------------------ From: "BVT" Subject: Re: Books n' in-Tuition Date: 1 Oct 2005 14:27:41 -0700 dear daughter,,,smoking pot isn't the best thing for you, especially when I'm payin out the ass for your college education. It was cool when I was 19, but now it's not...since I be paying the bills! Love, daddy ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 01 Oct 2005 14:41:58 -0700 Subject: Re: We're Excited (NDC) From: Steve Lenier in article 5c2tj1d0qfrmdn69tfi73sovhsd6q37bal@4ax.com, JimK at jkezwind@comcastDOTnet wrote on 10/1/05 6:05 AM: > On Sat, 01 Oct 2005 01:22:06 -0700, Steve Lenier > wrote: > >> interestingly, while the Forester is #15 on the lemon list, if you take the >> link to the "good cars" list, the Forester is #3...did I mention mine is the >> turbo? Gas costs more, and it's one more thing to go wrong, but I'm tellin' >> ya that thing sets me back in my seat when I punch it in. >> >> Steve > > IAAHSWYPII? > > JimK Heh. Steve ------------------------------ From: "starkers" Subject: Re: Slipknot! Date: 1 Oct 2005 14:44:54 -0700 starkers wrote: > Jerry Lobrowski wrote: > > Are > > there any Slipknot fans here? > > No maggots here, JL. Other board. Speaking of which, you cleaned out your sink yet, Jizz? ------------------------------ From: "David Gans" Subject: Re: "Blows Against The Empire" re-re-reissue Date: 1 Oct 2005 14:45:01 -0700 I asked Steve Silberman (who is a massive fan of "Blows") to interview Paul Kantner for Dead to the World. The conversation took place in Steve's apartment in San Francisco a few weeks ago, and it will be broadcast on KPFA this Wednesday, October 5, from 8 to 10 p.m. PDT. KPFA is on the air at 94.1 in northern California, and on the web at http://www.kpfa.org and http://www.kfcf.org ------------------------------ From: joker4153@comcast.net Subject: Re: Interesting take on Iraq... Date: 1 Oct 2005 14:51:02 -0700 Whether or note I have a favorite candidate (and you should know I don't) is not the point. The point here is who will stand for the truth and lead. But then, you think it's okay for politicians to perjure themselves, as long as they do it for good cause. Of course, politicians (and you, Richard) always think lying to the people is the right thing to do to get elected. You take "you can fool all the people some of the time" a little too literally. You deeply believe that no one can be elected unless they lie, unless they say one thing but really believe something else. And that's pretty much why I don't have a candidate. Although I will confess a great shame here: I voted for Kerry and I regreted it the moment I stepped out of the voting booth. Won't make that mistake again. The Democratic Party voted for this war, and they still support it. Before too long, they're likely going to own it. Then what? The solution to the war in Iraq is to get the fuck out, now. The US had no good reason to go there, and none to stay. Where is Dean now? Who cares? Larry ------------------------------ From: ba_ba_b00ie@webtv.net (ba ba booie) Subject: What is a good unplugged video to get? Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2005 18:40:56 -0400 What is a good unplugged video to get? I always like a video that the Rolling Stones put out. I forgot the name of it? Was it Her Majesty's Request? No that was the name of there song right? Her Majesty's Ball? This was a video when they were first coming around. What was the name of that? They were quite young when they recorded it. Anyway, that was a good video. There was a DOORS video that I saw. But I only saw one song of that. (Light my Fire) The Grateful Dead put one out. What was that called? My mind is slipping. I saw it only one time. Elvis Costello did one. I think? Elvis Presley put out one that was a good. I only saw one song of that video too. The Beatles did one? Eric Clapton put one out? I think Sting did one also. What is that format called when the band plays in front of an intimate crowd? Is that a studio audience in there? Ya know controlled clapping and talking. Any good unplugged videos to recommend? Are there whole shows? They usually cut those short! booie...... .. .. Have you checked these sites out today? http://www.jambase.com http://www.jambands.com http://www.jambase.com/festivals .. Find out where your favorite band is playing. Pollstar (The concert hotwire) http://www.pollstar.com ------------------------------ From: Tom Beck Subject: Re: Republicans are scum Date: Sat, 01 Oct 2005 18:24:17 -0500 Don Bean wrote: > I wouldnt say that.... but the real right wing guys are scum for sure... > actually anyone who way too extreeme will get you in the back with a > knife... > Bean "Big Jim lay covered up, killed by a penknife in the back ..." Tom ------------------------------ From: "Jerry Lobrowski" Subject: Re: Slipknot! Date: 1 Oct 2005 16:19:12 -0700 starkers wrote: > starkers wrote: > > Jerry Lobrowski wrote: > > > Are > > > there any Slipknot fans here? > > > > No maggots here, JL. Other board. > > Speaking of which, you cleaned out your sink yet, Jizz? How flattering. I now have my own little usenet pet to follow me around the boards. I think that's so cute. Sit up boy! Speak! Arf Arf. ------------------------------ From: "Jerry Lobrowski" Subject: I tried to grow a beard Date: 1 Oct 2005 16:38:31 -0700 So I could look like my hero Jerry Garcia when I start my Grateful Dead tribute band. But my face felt hot and tight so I gave up and shaved so I could be more comfortable. I know a guy who works as a shopping mall Santa. I will see if he will let me use his. Has anyone here ever grown a beard? ------------------------------ From: "garciyalater@hotmail.com" Subject: Re: Mix suggestions to introduce newbie Date: 1 Oct 2005 16:38:38 -0700 good lovin.....9/18/87 with the la bamba in the middle.... Chuck ------------------------------ From: "Richard Morris" Subject: Re: Interesting take on Iraq... Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2005 16:39:45 -0700 wrote in message news:1128203462.216793.69760@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... > Whether or note I have a favorite candidate (and you should know I > don't) is not the point. The point here is who will stand for the truth > and lead. Naw, the point is I get really, really weary listening to your bitching and complaining about who is doing what, with little in the way of constructive alternatives. Get out of Iraq now. Okay ... you ran the link. It so happens that I agree we ought to pull up stakes now. You follow up with your usual superficial overgeneralizations and rants, and then when someone yawns: > But then, you think it's okay for politicians to perjure themselves, as > long as they do it for good cause. Eh? Where did you come up with that little bit of libel? Go ahead, Larry .... find anywhere where I have *ever* promoted or advocated for perjury. 'Tis a lie. > Of course, politicians (and you, > Richard) always think lying to the people is the right thing to do to > get elected. You take "you can fool all the people some of the time" a > little too literally. You deeply believe that no one can be elected > unless they lie, unless they say one thing but really believe something > else. Hehe ... thank you for telling me what I deeply believe. You left out a few things, though ... like I deeply believe that I am most weary of your ranting ... your overgeneralizations ... your naivete. I will stipulate however, after reading the above, that you do indeed understand lying. You appear to practice the habit yourself. > The Democratic Party voted for this war, and they still support it. There you go again. Parties don't vote. People do. And you dramatically oversimplify what occured. You would probably do better to take the time that you spend posting your rants here, and write to encourage your representatives to support bringing the troups home. > The solution to the war in Iraq is to get the fuck out, now. The US had > no good reason to go there, and none to stay. Yes, that I agree with 100%. Of course, that probably surprises you since you know what I deeply believe. Or maybe not. ------------------------------ From: "starkers" Subject: Re: Slipknot! Date: 1 Oct 2005 16:54:00 -0700 Jerry Lobrowski wrote: > starkers wrote: > > starkers wrote: > > > Jerry Lobrowski wrote: > > > > Are > > > > there any Slipknot fans here? > > > > > > No maggots here, JL. Other board. > > > > Speaking of which, you cleaned out your sink yet, Jizz? > > How flattering. I now have my own little usenet pet to follow me around > the boards. I think that's so cute. Sit up boy! Speak! Arf Arf. Evelyn, a modified dog Viewed the quivering fringe of a special doily Draped across the piano, with some surprise In the darkened room Where the chairs dismayed And the horrible curtains Muffled the rain She could hardly believe her eyes A curious breeze A garlic breath Which sounded like a snore Somewhere near the Steinway (or even from within) Had caused the doily fringe to waft & tremble in the gloom Evelyn, a dog, having undergone Further modification Pondered the significance of short-person behavior In pedal-depressed panchromatic resonance And other highly ambient domains... Arf she said ------------------------------ From: Ken Fortenberry Subject: Re: What is a good unplugged video to get? Date: Sun, 02 Oct 2005 00:17:46 GMT ba ba booie wrote: > What is a good unplugged video to get? We went to Saturday Urbana Farmer's Market this morning and bought Illini Super Sweet corn, zuchinni, onions, mixed greens and a few other things. I wanted to be home by 11 so I could watch the Illinois-Iowa game. So at 10:45 I told the wife, you go pick out 5 lbs of nice ripe tomatoes and I'll get the gladiolas. We like to put fresh flowers in front of the fireplace and gladiolas are real nice for that. At the Farmer's Market they sell bunches of gladiolas for $4.50 a bunch or 3 for $12. I picked out three bunches, yellow with orange, orange with yellow, and bright yellow with just a touch of red, and took them to the cash box. Handed the lady a $20 and she pulled a wad of bills out of her apron to make change. She counted off three ones while saying, "12, so there's 13, 14, 15" then she peeled off a $5 and said "and 5 makes 10," then plucked out a $10 and said "and 10 makes 20." It all sounded so logical. But I protested and said "no, that's not right, you gave me too much money back." She wouldn't hear of it. She even took the opportunity to lecture a young girl working the same booth about the importance of counting change backwards so you never get it wrong. I said, "you gave me $18 change from a $20 for $12 worth of flowers," but by then lecture lady was too caught up in her own dogma to admit error. I biked home with the flowers and groceries in time to see the first Iowa touchdown while the wife biked to the bakery for a baguette and a ciabatta and then to the store for cheese. We had the corn, some shrimp, scallions and basil from the garden for lunch and one of the tomatoes with a little buffalo mozzarella and the baguette on the side. And a delightful Pinot Noir I'd never heard of called Woodenhead that the wife had brought back from her San Francisco trip. The Illini lost to Iowa. And the only thing plugged in was the TV. -- Ken Fortenberry ------------------------------ From: cj Subject: Re: I tried to grow a beard Date: Sat, 01 Oct 2005 20:23:12 -0400 i gottoa goatee and i hate the hot weather. goatees enough. comfort rules 75 degrees and zip humidity cj Jerry Lobrowski wrote: > So I could look like my hero Jerry Garcia when I start my Grateful Dead > tribute band. But my face felt hot and tight so I gave up and shaved so > I could be more comfortable. I know a guy who works as a shopping mall > Santa. I will see if he will let me use his. Has anyone here ever grown > a beard? > ------------------------------ From: "Richard Morris" Subject: Those bloodthirsty Democrats ... Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2005 17:34:23 -0700 From http://www.antiwar.com/orig/jeserich.php?articleid=6094 : The House of Representatives voted down a measure, by a 128 to 300 vote, that called on President Bush to devise a plan for a withdrawal from Iraq. It came in the form of an amendment to the $491 billion budget for the Pentagon that was passed on Wednesday night. But the withdrawal amendment marks the first time that Congress has officially voted and debated legislation that deals with a withdrawal. "No, it won't pass today, but it will give us a chance to talk about it," said Representative Lynn Woolsey (D-Calif.), the sponsor of the amendment. "It's an opportunity for members of Congress who are frustrated that our troops are being killed for a war that wasn't necessary in the first place and that there is no plan in sight to bring them home." Despite the overwhelming defeat, about two-thirds of Democrats voted for it ....... From http://www.pdamerica.org/petition/iraq-exit-petition.php : We the undersigned join grassroots Democrats from California to Vermont in calling for an end to the U.S. occupation of Iraq. We ask you to join us in our demand that the troops be brought home. We support efforts to repair the damage the war has inflicted on Iraq, but believe that the occupation is causing further damage, encouraging violence, hardening divisions, and failing to train or prepare Iraqis for self-governance. We believe the United States can best help Iraq by supporting reparation efforts financially, rather than continuing to spend greater sums of money on an occupation that is aggravating the situation and making all of us less safe. On the other hand, from http://uslaboragainstwar.org/article.php?id=9200 : AGAINST SUPREME Court nominee John Roberts. For the war in Iraq. How long can Democrats like Hillary Clinton walk that political line? Fearful of the peacenik label, Democrats are still reluctant to challenge President Bush on Iraq, no matter how ugly the news from Baghdad. Opposing Roberts is much easier. It shows that when it comes to social issues like abortion, left-leaning interest groups still hold sway with Democrats who would be president. The antiwar left is a different story. It's the third rail Democrats fear to touch. The junior senator from New York also has the ''woman problem." No female presidential candidate wants to sound like antiwar mom Cindy Sheehan. ************************ It is obvious from reading the above, that Democrats are monolithic in their support of the war in Iraq. Warmongers! ############# R. -- Drop "trousers" to respond via email. ------------------------------ From: "Steve Terry" Subject: Comes a Time Benefit - NoB NoP Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2005 20:00:22 -0500 I just got this today from Tim Ratdog and will gladly pass along to the first to promise to pass it along on RMGD just like I am now. These are compressed music files on a DVD, so you must have a dvd drive on the computer and be able to decode FLAC files. This DVD has some other goodies on it as well: jgb 3/18/78, jgb 9/15/84, jgb 7/23/77, jgb 8/15/84, and Taj Mahal 6/13/04. All in FLAC except 3/18/78, which is in SHN. Be sure to send your snail mail addy when you reply privately after fixing my email addy. Peace. The Comes a Time Benefit - For the Rex Foundation The Music of Jerry Garcia 9-24-2005 The Greek Thtr, Berkeley, CA Taper: Ian Stone (stone.ian@gmail.com) Source: MBHO 603a/ka200n>Sound Devices 722 @ 24bit/96khz Mics located Dead Center at the bottom of the lawn - top of bench seating Mics ORTF. (Resampled & Dithered to 16bit/44.1khz using soundforge 6.0) ***Not on recording*** David Nelson, Sandy Rothman, & Brian Godchaux 7 songs, approx. 25 minutes Disc 1: String Cheese members w/Scott Law on guitar: Approximately 30 minutes 1. Intro 2. Friend of the Devil 3. Catfish John 4. Casey Jones (also w/Jeff Chimenti) 5. Goin'Down the Road Feelin' Bad 6. Ripple 7. outro Disc 1 (Continued) The "Jerry" Band Approximately 40 minutes 8. intro 9. Cats Down Under The Stars 10. Rhapsody In Red 11. That Lucky Old Sun 12. My Sisters & My Brothers 13. *Deal 14. outro *with Warren Haynes, Merl Saunders joining Melvin Seals on keys Disc 2: Ratdog Approximately 30 minutes 1. intro 2. Mississippi 1/2 Step 3. Bird Song 4. Lazy River Road 5. Big Railroad Blues 6. outro 7.Rex Foundation speakers Annabelle Garcia, and family speak briefly Disc 3: The Jerry Garcia Tribute Band Approximately 2 hours, 50 minutes including encores 1. Olin Arageed (Hamza El Din) 5:24 2. Help on The Way (Trey) 14:13 *Power failure, house sound goes completely out for a minute or two.* (Sound was recorded from amps/monitors, and although faint i did my best to fix this in soundforge 7:20>8:38) 3. Slipknot! 1:20 4. Sugaree (Warren) 13:02 5. Loser (Bruce) 8:25 6. Brown Eyed Woman (Michael Kang) 6:11 7. crowd 0:07 8. Dark Star (Bobby) 11:10 9. Bertha (Warren) 8:08 10. Eyes of The World (Trey) 10:34 Disc 4: (Bobby intros a few folks) 1. Standing on The Moon (Bruce) 8:43 2. Scarlet Begonias (Bruce) 7:23 3. Fire on The Mountain (Mickey) 9:30 4. Stella Blue (Warren) 10:04 Disc 5: 1. The Wheel (Bobby) 6:43 2. Uncle John's Band (All) 10:09 3. He's Gone (Bobby) 11:24 4. Franklin's Tower (Trey) 7:54 5. crowd 1:13 Encores: 6. Brokedown Palace (Bobby) 5:47 7. Dark Star v.2 (Bobby) 4:04 8. Touch of Grey 7:59 9. outro/crowd Group bow 2:28 Mickey: "Take this spirit home with you..." ------------------------------ From: "seraphim" Subject: Playboy After Dark DVD B+P Date: Sun, 02 Oct 2005 01:29:03 GMT e=mail me if ya wanna b&p tha usual rules folks Playboy After Dark 1 dvd-r 1970 Just downloaded this from easytree. Playboy After Dark was an hour-long show that ran on network TV (!) from July 1968 to May 1970. The ever hip and debonair Hef surrounded himself with a bunch of attractive young pseudo-sophisticates, salted each week with a variety of personalities ranging from Milton Berle to Mort Sahl, Sid Caesar to Lenny Bruce, Roman Polanski (and Sharon Tate) to Paul Mazursky. There was also some amazing music, which comprises this dvd. No idea who compiled this collection but it looks and sounds great. Here are the artists: Deep Purple, looking like extras from "Spinal Tap" Iron Butterfly, lip-synching "In A Gadda Da Vida" Taj Mahal, with Jesse Ed Davis on guitar Canned Heat Linda Ronstatdt The Byrds, looking like Brit mod-rockers, very weird Sir Douglas Quintet The Dead, who supposedly dosed the crowd BB King Ike & Tina Turner Canned Heat Nitty Gritty Dirt Band Steppenwolf, surprisingly good, doing politically charged stuff that would be totally relevant today Fleetwood Mac with Peter Green, but way too abbreviated Country Joe & the Fish ------------------------------ From: "Everybody's Gonna Be Happy" Subject: Re: Those bloodthirsty Democrats ... Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2005 18:29:18 -0700 "Richard Morris" wrote in message news:QKmdnThlP5OMtqLeRVn-1w@comcast.com... > From http://www.antiwar.com/orig/jeserich.php?articleid=6094 : > > The House of Representatives voted down a measure, by a 128 to 300 vote, > that called on President Bush to devise a plan for a withdrawal from Iraq. > It came in the form of an amendment to the $491 billion budget for the > Pentagon that was passed on Wednesday night. > > But the withdrawal amendment marks the first time that Congress has > officially voted and debated legislation that deals with a withdrawal. > > "No, it won't pass today, but it will give us a chance to talk about it," > said Representative Lynn Woolsey (D-Calif.), the sponsor of the amendment. > "It's an opportunity for members of Congress who are frustrated that our > troops are being killed for a war that wasn't necessary in the first place > and that there is no plan in sight to bring them home." > > Despite the overwhelming defeat, about two-thirds of Democrats voted for > it ...... > > From http://www.pdamerica.org/petition/iraq-exit-petition.php : > > We the undersigned join grassroots Democrats from California to Vermont in > calling for an end to the U.S. occupation of Iraq. We ask you to join us > in our demand that the troops be brought home. We support efforts to > repair the damage the war has inflicted on Iraq, but believe that the > occupation is causing further damage, encouraging violence, hardening > divisions, and failing to train or prepare Iraqis for self-governance. > We believe the United States can best help Iraq by supporting reparation > efforts financially, rather than continuing to spend greater sums of money > on an occupation that is aggravating the situation and making all of us > less safe. > > On the other hand, from http://uslaboragainstwar.org/article.php?id=9200 > : > > AGAINST SUPREME Court nominee John Roberts. For the war in Iraq. How long > can Democrats like Hillary Clinton walk that political line? > > Fearful of the peacenik label, Democrats are still reluctant to challenge > President Bush on Iraq, no matter how ugly the news from Baghdad. Opposing > Roberts is much easier. It shows that when it comes to social issues like > abortion, left-leaning interest groups still hold sway with Democrats who > would be president. > > The antiwar left is a different story. It's the third rail Democrats fear > to touch. The junior senator from New York also has the ''woman problem." > No female presidential candidate wants to sound like antiwar mom Cindy > Sheehan. > > ************************ > > It is obvious from reading the above, that Democrats are monolithic in > their support of the war in Iraq. Warmongers! ############# This amendment called on "the president" to devise a "plan" for withdrawing from Iraq. In other words, it does nothing but ask George Bush to write something up. It still only got two thirds of the Democrat votes. Considering that Woolsey has only 33 co-sponsors for her real amendment, the one that calls for an immediate withdrawal of US troops, the Dems are clearly still afraid of the political repercussions. EGBH ------------------------------ From: "Richard Morris" Subject: Re: Those bloodthirsty Democrats ... Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2005 18:41:40 -0700 "Everybody's Gonna Be Happy" wrote in message news:SJG%e.899$aB1.5756@eagle.america.net... > > "Richard Morris" wrote in message > news:QKmdnThlP5OMtqLeRVn-1w@comcast.com... >> From http://www.antiwar.com/orig/jeserich.php?articleid=6094 : >> >> The House of Representatives voted down a measure, by a 128 to 300 vote, >> that called on President Bush to devise a plan for a withdrawal from >> Iraq. It came in the form of an amendment to the $491 billion budget for >> the Pentagon that was passed on Wednesday night. >> >> But the withdrawal amendment marks the first time that Congress has >> officially voted and debated legislation that deals with a withdrawal. >> >> "No, it won't pass today, but it will give us a chance to talk about it," >> said Representative Lynn Woolsey (D-Calif.), the sponsor of the >> amendment. "It's an opportunity for members of Congress who are >> frustrated that our troops are being killed for a war that wasn't >> necessary in the first place and that there is no plan in sight to bring >> them home." >> >> Despite the overwhelming defeat, about two-thirds of Democrats voted for >> it ...... >> >> From http://www.pdamerica.org/petition/iraq-exit-petition.php : >> >> We the undersigned join grassroots Democrats from California to Vermont >> in calling for an end to the U.S. occupation of Iraq. We ask you to join >> us in our demand that the troops be brought home. We support efforts to >> repair the damage the war has inflicted on Iraq, but believe that the >> occupation is causing further damage, encouraging violence, hardening >> divisions, and failing to train or prepare Iraqis for self-governance. >> We believe the United States can best help Iraq by supporting reparation >> efforts financially, rather than continuing to spend greater sums of >> money on an occupation that is aggravating the situation and making all >> of us less safe. >> >> On the other hand, from http://uslaboragainstwar.org/article.php?id=9200 >> : >> >> AGAINST SUPREME Court nominee John Roberts. For the war in Iraq. How long >> can Democrats like Hillary Clinton walk that political line? >> >> Fearful of the peacenik label, Democrats are still reluctant to challenge >> President Bush on Iraq, no matter how ugly the news from Baghdad. >> Opposing Roberts is much easier. It shows that when it comes to social >> issues like abortion, left-leaning interest groups still hold sway with >> Democrats who would be president. >> >> The antiwar left is a different story. It's the third rail Democrats fear >> to touch. The junior senator from New York also has the ''woman problem." >> No female presidential candidate wants to sound like antiwar mom Cindy >> Sheehan. >> >> ************************ >> >> It is obvious from reading the above, that Democrats are monolithic in >> their support of the war in Iraq. Warmongers! ############# > > > This amendment called on "the president" to devise a "plan" for > withdrawing from Iraq. In other words, it does nothing but ask George > Bush to write something up. It still only got two thirds of the Democrat > votes. > > Considering that Woolsey has only 33 co-sponsors for her real amendment, > the one that calls for an immediate withdrawal of US troops, the Dems are > clearly still afraid of the political repercussions. Of course some are--you bet. But less so than yesterday, and perhaps more so than tomorrow. As one of the pundits put it, "The Bush Admin. can declare victory and leave. The Dems can only declare defeat and urge withdrawal." Not a good place to be, politically. Particularly when you don't have the votes to do much. But ... the point of the above is that 1) there is much more likely to be a variety of opinion about what to do in the dem party than in the republican party; and 2) a movement for peace is going to come from the left, including the dems, not from the right. And it is going to take a push on those in Congress who are recalcitrant. Continue to turn the crank about who voted for what two years ago is ... turning the crank! My recollection is that it took about five years for the average Joe in this country to come to the conclusion that Vietnam was a lost cause. I hope it does not take that long with Iraq. ------------------------------ ** FOR YOUR REFERENCE ** The service addresses, to which questions about the list itself and requests to be added to or deleted from it should be directed, are as follows: Internet: dead-flames-request@gdead.berkeley.edu Bitnet: dead-flames-request%gdead.berkeley.edu@ucbcmsa Uucp: ...!{ucbvax,uunet}!gdead.berkeley.edu!dead-flames-request You can send mail to the entire list (and rec.music.gdead) via one of these addresses: Internet: dead-flames@gdead.berkeley.edu Bitnet: dead-flames%gdead.berkeley.edu@ucbcmsa Uucp: ...!{ucbvax,uunet}!gdead.berkeley.edu!dead-flames End of Dead-Flames Digest ****************************** .