From: Digestifier To: Subject: Dead-Flames Digest #363 Dead-Flames Digest #363, Volume #48 Wed, 21 Sep 05 17:00:01 PDT Contents: Re: Brave New World (JC Martin) Re: Brave New World (JC Martin) Re: Brave New World ("Richard Morris") Re: Brave New World (JC Martin) Re: ndc-Katrina, Rita, Bush, Rove..its all a conspiracy. ("Stuknot") Re: Brave New World (JC Martin) Re: Rock and Roll HOF Nominees Announced ("Deke_Rivers") Re: Rock and Roll HOF Nominees Announced (JC Martin) Re: Brave New World ("Richard Morris") Re: Farewell, Farewell olde No. 7 ("alex sandoval") Re: JGB (Mike) Re: Brave New World ("Richard Morris") Re: ndc-Katrina, Rita, Bush, Rove..its all a conspiracy. ("Ray") ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JC Martin Subject: Re: Brave New World Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 22:29:29 GMT Richard Morris wrote: > "JC Martin" wrote in message > news:_eiYe.171$u8.2779@typhoon.sonic.net... > >>Sherry wrote: >> >>>>I had an understanding once that the reason kids take drivers ed at 16, >>>>is >>>>because neurologically, the time is ripe. Exactly what you're describing >>>>about his driving abilities is typical stuff. He is putting perceptual >>>>vision >>>>together with gross motor. It takes a lot of coordination and >>>>concentration. >>>>And lots of practice! And it's all happening in the brain. >>>> >>>>Just like with any stage Sherry, we all go through it, just at our own >>>>speed. >>>> >>> >>> >>>Only, he's 18, and frustrated that all the kids who are over 16 he knows, >>>have their license. :( Makes him feel like the "hulking re-todd in the >>>corner"... made worse because he is intelligent. Maybe I hurt more for >>>him >>>than he actually does. Dunno. Might be a mom thing. >> >> >>Try getting him off sugar. Try getting him to a therapist who specializes >>in time management and goal setting. Oh, I forgot, you know best. And >>I'm an asshole! ;-) But really, there's no reason he can't get his >>license at 18. I didn't pass the first two times. > > > JC, it is irresponsible to draw conclusions from a sample of > one--yourself--and decide that what you experienced is the same as what > others have experienced. But I wasn't doing that Richard and it's unfair really to say to. I never put forth the idea that ADD is diagnosed by brain scan (not true for the most part and certainly not scientific) and then follow by saying, "I'm right. I KNOW. I LIVE IT!". I mean, come on. The way Sherry put forth her argument was that she's right cause her kid has been diagnosed and treated. End of discussion. Well, I proposed that it wasn't the end of the discussion. There are other valid views...views held by professionals in the field of psychology and psychiatry. > I work with a woman who adopted a girl as an infant, and was later diagnosed > with "ADD inattentive type". This woman, who is a middle school teacher, > could probably write the book on alternative ADD treatments. She has > researched the hell out of it, tried many things to see what works. Diet? > No effect. Strict limits? Hehe. How do you put strict limits on someone > when they come home from school ... you have to sit them down, control > outside stimuli, prompt them through homework, only to have the kid go to > school the next day and forget to turn the homework in because she is so > unfocused? What limits would resolve that? A therapist would have to monitor the parent's activity to see if the treatment were being properly administered. Often the parents believe they are doing the right thing, but aren't. That said Richard, I'm not 100% anti-medication. If the above scenario plays out to be true and the parents actually understand the value of setting boundaries and following through, taking all sugar out of the house, exercise and getting some cognitive and/or behavioral therapy from a respected therapist, then yeah, medication may be the ultimate answer. The risks in that are many and any program with medication should seek short-term usage if at all possible. Cognitive therapy and medication have worked well for some kids. Assertiveness training and visualization for some could help as well along with the medication. For the creative child, Gestalt therapy has shown effectiveness. My point is, medication interferes with the normal brain development of a child. It also put loads of carcinogens in a child's body at an early age. Drug addiction is also possible as an adult. Do everything in your power to seek other treatments first. If it means the parent quitting sugar themselves, so be it. > They have indeed put strict limits on her behavior, with logical > consequences for misbehavior. Unfortunately, ADD-related behavior is not > particularly misbehavior. What good does it do to punish a kid for doing > something that they can't control, like forgetting to bring home her books? I don't believe setting boundaries is punishment. I believe kids want those boundaries to be set by their parents and to be loved. > They tried logical consequences ... homework not done? You can't go > anywhere until it is. The result was that Rachel didn't get to go anywhere > for months because she couldn't come home, sit down and work through her > homework like other kids. > > This is a kid that teachers have to prompt every day to take out notebook > and pen! Every day! > > They finally faced the fact that because Rachel had no sense of structure or > order, they had to provide it externally. Modify the classrrom environment > with respect to seating. Lots of teacher prompts. Organize the hell out of > her at home with lots of consistency and structure, and lots of directing > her. > > But none of it was truly corrective. Take away the interventions, and she > was right back to being her unfocused self, incapable of demonstrating > anywhere near the level of responsibility that her age-mates demonstrate. And I'm not discounting that scenario whatsoever. > In this girl's case, there may have been prenatal exposure to a variety of > drugs. Which leads me sometimes to think that there actually may be a > variety of causes that result in similar behaviors. Who kknows? It could even be genetic pre-disposition. I feel some of my issues, from observing my parents, could be a result of such. Of course, genetic...environmental. One begets another. Peas, JC ------------------------------ From: JC Martin Subject: Re: Brave New World Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 22:32:46 GMT Richard Morris wrote: > "JC Martin" wrote in message > news:sFiYe.179$u8.2852@typhoon.sonic.net... > >>kpnnews@yahoo.com wrote: >> >>>JC Martin wrote: >>> >>> >>>>No, I'm not Catholic. >>> >>> >>>Neither am I; in fact, I consider myself the anti-Catholic. >>>Don't get me started. However, those Brothers get all my >>>respect for what they did and do. Mine wasn't a boarding >>>school. It was where challenging kids went. >> >> >>Oh, we were challenging all right. ;-) I'm famous there for throwing a >>rock at a nun. Fortunately, it just grazed her nose. And yeah, she >>forgave like a good Christian would. > > > Was that before or after she beat the shit out of you? Ummm Richard, this was a *progressive* Catholic school...you know, Sonoma County and all. They even gave us back our Black Sabbath and Iron Maiden tapes after confiscating them for approval. This particular nun took a special interest in me as well. My punishment was to do gardening at the convent for a couple of months after school. Not so bad. I did get whacked by the principle a couple of times, but I don't think on that particular occasion. Peas, -JC ------------------------------ From: "Richard Morris" Subject: Re: Brave New World Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 15:36:34 -0700 "JC Martin" wrote in message news:4fkYe.191$u8.3278@typhoon.sonic.net... > Richard Morris wrote: >> "Sherry" wrote in message >> news:BF5706B0.54D59%sherry13@together.net... >> >>>>The media??? *LOL* >>>> >>>>You startin' to sound like a Republican. You think you know. But you >>>>really don't. Pacifying a kid with medication is no miracle. >>> >>>Okay. Upon reading my posts and yours, JC, me actually *knowing* the >>>amount >>>of research I've done and continue to do, I can come to only one >>>conclusion: >>>you're an asshole. >> >> >> I have to support Sherry. Everything she has said is consistent and >> credible with respect to what I have also experienced with a pretty good >> sample of kids. With extreme cases, you try all the other stuff and it >> doesn't work. You modify the hell out of diet, classroom and home >> environment, parenting practices, and so forth, and nothing makes a >> difference. To second-guess with very limited data what Sherry has >> experienced, and on that basis to make accusations about her judgment and >> parenting is really, really unfortunate and disrespectful. > > > > This is where the mother gets protected my the men. I'm down for it. But > everything I said rings true Richard. And I notice you didn't criticize > Sherry for her absolutist pro-pharmacuetical propaganda. Her case doesn't > represent the majority necessarily and there's certainly no media > conspiracy to keep kids in a ADD state. That's truly laughable and that > mindset derives from the largely right-wing pro-pharmaceutical lobbyists > which put out this kind of information. If you want to provide scientific > research (non-partisan, non-pharmaceutical company based) to back up any > claim, I'm up for it. Again, I'm not against medication as a last resort. > But I'm not confident that Sherry, given what she's posted here and her > defensiveness, that she's tried the options I provided, which have had > excellent results in people's homes. I know people with extreme cases who > have gotten by without medication, so to say it can't be done is just > ridiculous. When you try another therapy, doing it half way is not > enough. Well, considering that you haven't backed up anything you have said, I am not sure that you have a position with respect to requiring that of others. As for extreme cases without medications: I could design for you a school that could successfully manage the most severe cases of ADD without meds. The problem is that the structure that is used now that is usually not very successful with the kids is dictated by guess what? Funding and politics. Put a teacher in a classroom with 40 kids, with a range of ability levels that vary six or eight grade levels. Tell her that if she doesn't meet her state and federal academic goals she won't keep her job. Stick in a kid with ADD or ADHD. No way that kid is gonna get all he or she needs. If the secret to working with a true ADD kid is modifying the environment, you have to understand that y'all taxpayers aren't providing the resources necessary to accomplish the needed modifications. Is this proof of Toad's assertion that it is all societal? Only in the same sense that if you were really sick, you could stay home and be treated if you had the resources to do it. Instead, we have opted to do sick care in hospitals. R> ------------------------------ From: JC Martin Subject: Re: Brave New World Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 22:39:58 GMT Richard Morris wrote: > "JC Martin" wrote in message > news:cngYe.135$u8.2529@typhoon.sonic.net... > >>Sherry wrote: >> >>>>Sad that you truly believe in only the pharmaceutical methods. There >>>>are other theories and solutions just as workable out there. >>> >>> >>>They did not work for my kid. Sorry you can't seem to understand there's >>>not >>>a one-size-fits-all approach. >> >> >>I do understand that. Ritalin and any medication used on a child with >>developing brains should be a last resort...after nutrition, structure, >>boundaries, exercise, therapy, etc. If none of those solutions work and >>the child still can't learn or process information, then drugs could be >>necessary, and even in that case I'd be reluctant. >> >> >> >>>There are degrees off ADD and ADHD - obviously >>>yours was/is not as advanced/serious as my son's. >> >> >> >>Chill out for a sec Sherry. I'm not judging your parenting skills. I'm >>just responding to what seems like a blanket defense of the pharmaceutical >>industry, which puts out theoretical propaganda disguised as hard science. >>It's all over the net. Beyond that, we know more today about mental >>illness than ever before. Parents are learning that other methods do >>indeed work. > > > Come on JC ... this is what you said: > > "You startin' to sound like a Republican. You think you know. But you > really don't. Pacifying a kid with medication is no miracle." > > If that ain't questioning her parenting skills, what is? I responded to this: "I'm right. I KNOW. I LIVE IT!" ....and the idea that I and others get our information from a media which conspires to out lazy mothers across the country who put their kids on medication: "Despite media claims, responsible parents do not just wish to "zombie" their kids into good behavior. We tried literally everything we could before turning to drugs in desperation. I do not know any parents who just leaped at the chance to drug their kids." Making the media the bad guy is why I said she sounds like a Republican. I stand by that. She also seems to be standing up for the idea that the media is lying about the problem of over-prescribing Ritalin in children. I obviously disagree. -JC ------------------------------ From: "Stuknot" Subject: Re: ndc-Katrina, Rita, Bush, Rove..its all a conspiracy. Date: 21 Sep 2005 15:40:19 -0700 Ken Fortenberry wrote: > Stephen St. wrote: > > Hows this one for ya? > > > > Bush and Co. saw Katrina coming and said "lets not respond in a timely > > manner", that will enrage everyone! ... > > Live bunnies are an *excellent* source of nutrition !! > Don't tell Toad - he'll be running around Oregon biting the heads off live bunnies every spare moment. He hates bunnies, you know. John H. ------------------------------ From: JC Martin Subject: Re: Brave New World Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 22:45:37 GMT Richard Morris wrote: > "JC Martin" wrote in message > news:4fkYe.191$u8.3278@typhoon.sonic.net... > >>Richard Morris wrote: >> >>>"Sherry" wrote in message >>>news:BF5706B0.54D59%sherry13@together.net... >>> >>> >>>>>The media??? *LOL* >>>>> >>>>>You startin' to sound like a Republican. You think you know. But you >>>>>really don't. Pacifying a kid with medication is no miracle. >>>> >>>>Okay. Upon reading my posts and yours, JC, me actually *knowing* the >>>>amount >>>>of research I've done and continue to do, I can come to only one >>>>conclusion: >>>>you're an asshole. >>> >>> >>>I have to support Sherry. Everything she has said is consistent and >>>credible with respect to what I have also experienced with a pretty good >>>sample of kids. With extreme cases, you try all the other stuff and it >>>doesn't work. You modify the hell out of diet, classroom and home >>>environment, parenting practices, and so forth, and nothing makes a >>>difference. To second-guess with very limited data what Sherry has >>>experienced, and on that basis to make accusations about her judgment and >>>parenting is really, really unfortunate and disrespectful. >> >> >> >>This is where the mother gets protected my the men. I'm down for it. But >>everything I said rings true Richard. And I notice you didn't criticize >>Sherry for her absolutist pro-pharmacuetical propaganda. Her case doesn't >>represent the majority necessarily and there's certainly no media >>conspiracy to keep kids in a ADD state. That's truly laughable and that >>mindset derives from the largely right-wing pro-pharmaceutical lobbyists >>which put out this kind of information. If you want to provide scientific >>research (non-partisan, non-pharmaceutical company based) to back up any >>claim, I'm up for it. Again, I'm not against medication as a last resort. >>But I'm not confident that Sherry, given what she's posted here and her >>defensiveness, that she's tried the options I provided, which have had >>excellent results in people's homes. I know people with extreme cases who >>have gotten by without medication, so to say it can't be done is just >>ridiculous. When you try another therapy, doing it half way is not >>enough. > > > Well, considering that you haven't backed up anything you have said, I am > not sure that you have a position with respect to requiring that of others. What haven't I backed up? No one has provided conclusive scientific research because there is NONE! > As for extreme cases without medications: I could design for you a school > that could successfully manage the most severe cases of ADD without meds. > The problem is that the structure that is used now that is usually not very > successful with the kids is dictated by guess what? Funding and politics. > Put a teacher in a classroom with 40 kids, with a range of ability levels > that vary six or eight grade levels. Tell her that if she doesn't meet her > state and federal academic goals she won't keep her job. Stick in a kid > with ADD or ADHD. No way that kid is gonna get all he or she needs. > > If the secret to working with a true ADD kid is modifying the environment, > you have to understand that y'all taxpayers aren't providing the resources > necessary to accomplish the needed modifications. Agreed. But it starts in the home, not the school system. That's why it's a societal problem. > Is this proof of Toad's assertion that it is all societal? Only in the same > sense that if you were really sick, you could stay home and be treated if > you had the resources to do it. Instead, we have opted to do sick care in > hospitals. I see your point of view. But I disagree that ADD/ADHD is a factual disease. It has no scientific diagnosis such as cancer or heart disease. -JC ------------------------------ From: "Deke_Rivers" Subject: Re: Rock and Roll HOF Nominees Announced Date: 21 Sep 2005 15:45:18 -0700 Shoo-in: I'd go with Sir Douglas Quintet. Doug Sahm's career spanned from the mid-50's(as a 12 year old) through his death in the 90's. He consistenly recorded some great material. Pierre ------------------------------ From: JC Martin Subject: Re: Rock and Roll HOF Nominees Announced Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 22:49:06 GMT Deke_Rivers wrote: > Shoo-in: > > I'd go with Sir Douglas Quintet. Doug Sahm's career spanned from the > mid-50's(as a 12 year old) through his death in the 90's. He > consistenly recorded some great material. On principle, I'd agree. Truly a heavyweight artist. Unfortunately most people haven't heard his work outside of a few singles. -JC ------------------------------ From: "Richard Morris" Subject: Re: Brave New World Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 16:06:00 -0700 "JC Martin" wrote in message news:WnkYe.194$u8.3189@typhoon.sonic.net... snip > You call that science? I'm sorry Richard, but that's pathetic. This is > the kind of crap being spread throughout government funded institutions > like public schools, college campuses, etc. and the pharmaceuticals are > making a killin'. We built this damn country without all this crap. But > today we need it? Please. Nope, didn't call it science. It is a practical observation and a definite curiosity, however. Something causes certain kids, who exhibit certain symptoms/behaviors to react in certain paradoxical ways to certain drugs. Those drugs allow some kids to have reasonably normal lives. I want to know why. The rest is your straw man. You said it, I didn't. Your patronizing attitude pisses me off. You really can be a prick ... it is something that you are really good at. And JC old bud ... I don't give a shit about your editorializing ... if you think it is pathetic, then kill file me. At least I am not attempting to overlay the experiences of my own childhood on everyone else in the world. Just because you experienced certain things doesn't mean it is that way for all others. I would guess that in my professional life I have had the opportunity to observe about 20,000 kids from a huge diversity of circumstances. The inservice goes with the territory. I certainly am capable of discriminating propoganda from research, and capable of reasoning. Put your goods on the table. How many kids you worked with? How many kids you got of your own? Ever been a parent? Ever coped with an exceptional child? >>I don't think your romantic theory about ruthless parents and institutions >>out to drug the spirit out of kids tells the whole story. What I want to >>understand is why there are so many kids out there who are experiencing >>the symptoms that they are. > > > And why so in America? > > > >> They aren't just free spirits, Toad. My gut tells me that there are >> environmental factors ... but I am not a researcher. > > > > Parents that don't set boundaries for their kids run into these problems > all the time. To discount parental influence and hype medication as the > solution to man's mental ills is truly a disturbing trend, especially here > in America and especially given that other methods work just as > effectively without hindering the development of a child's brain. Sad. JC, let me say this again. The problem is nowhere near as widespread as Toad makes it. In the group of kids I work with, only a handful are truly severe on the order of what Sherry described. I think that 1.5% or less do medication. Could some of those folks be better parents? Jesus, I don't know ... I can't observe their parenting. Probably. But I sure as hell know that you don't either, and have nothing to base your shit on except your own experiences that I can see. I have seen people who have basically restructured their entire families and lives to attempt to manage their kids ADD behavior without meds. In the same sense that I have seen families restructure their entire lives managing with a kid with a spinal chord injury. But in neither case do the symptoms go away. But how they choose to respond is not my choice to make for them. It is not yours. You can stand in the seat of judgement if you want to ... but you haven't been in their shoes. You point people to resources, you discuss options, you respect their decision as much as you can. From my experience, most parents I have worked with are extremely reticent to medicate their kids. If there is a failing, it is not necessarily on the part of parents, but on the part of a system that doesn't provide them with adequate resources from which to work. I am diabetic ... but I manage it right now with diet and exercise. It is enormously difficult, but I would prefer not to be on a maintenance medication, even though the medical providers typically assume that most people will not alter their behavior (prolly correct about that) and offer a pill. Does that tell you what I think personally about medicating in lieu of other kinds of treatments? R. ------------------------------ From: "alex sandoval" Subject: Re: Farewell, Farewell olde No. 7 Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 23:26:48 GMT don't panic. it's just the wkend and late nite that are being discontinued. i never beat the fare on muni but i jumped a couple fences at dead shows. before you flame, remember, garcia called in sick to a bunch of dead shows too and he didn't refund anybody. ------------------------------ From: Mike Subject: Re: JGB Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 16:12:31 -0700 DanPopp wrote: > Hiya > > 2 things > > Why no JGB on archive? > > Where's Sugarmegs? > JGB didn't allow taping... ------------------------------ From: "Richard Morris" Subject: Re: Brave New World Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 16:12:47 -0700 "JC Martin" wrote in message news:lolYe.209$u8.3423@typhoon.sonic.net... > Richard Morris wrote: >> "JC Martin" wrote in message >> news:4fkYe.191$u8.3278@typhoon.sonic.net... >> >>>Richard Morris wrote: >>> >>>>"Sherry" wrote in message >>>>news:BF5706B0.54D59%sherry13@together.net... >>>> >>>> >>>>>>The media??? *LOL* >>>>>> >>>>>>You startin' to sound like a Republican. You think you know. But you >>>>>>really don't. Pacifying a kid with medication is no miracle. >>>>> >>>>>Okay. Upon reading my posts and yours, JC, me actually *knowing* the >>>>>amount >>>>>of research I've done and continue to do, I can come to only one >>>>>conclusion: >>>>>you're an asshole. >>>> >>>> >>>>I have to support Sherry. Everything she has said is consistent and >>>>credible with respect to what I have also experienced with a pretty good >>>>sample of kids. With extreme cases, you try all the other stuff and it >>>>doesn't work. You modify the hell out of diet, classroom and home >>>>environment, parenting practices, and so forth, and nothing makes a >>>>difference. To second-guess with very limited data what Sherry has >>>>experienced, and on that basis to make accusations about her judgment >>>>and parenting is really, really unfortunate and disrespectful. >>> >>> >>> >>>This is where the mother gets protected my the men. I'm down for it. But >>>everything I said rings true Richard. And I notice you didn't criticize >>>Sherry for her absolutist pro-pharmacuetical propaganda. Her case >>>doesn't represent the majority necessarily and there's certainly no media >>>conspiracy to keep kids in a ADD state. That's truly laughable and that >>>mindset derives from the largely right-wing pro-pharmaceutical lobbyists >>>which put out this kind of information. If you want to provide >>>scientific research (non-partisan, non-pharmaceutical company based) to >>>back up any claim, I'm up for it. Again, I'm not against medication as a >>>last resort. But I'm not confident that Sherry, given what she's posted >>>here and her defensiveness, that she's tried the options I provided, >>>which have had excellent results in people's homes. I know people with >>>extreme cases who have gotten by without medication, so to say it can't >>>be done is just ridiculous. When you try another therapy, doing it half >>>way is not enough. >> >> >> Well, considering that you haven't backed up anything you have said, I am >> not sure that you have a position with respect to requiring that of >> others. > > > What haven't I backed up? No one has provided conclusive scientific > research because there is NONE! > > >> As for extreme cases without medications: I could design for you a school >> that could successfully manage the most severe cases of ADD without meds. >> The problem is that the structure that is used now that is usually not >> very successful with the kids is dictated by guess what? Funding and >> politics. Put a teacher in a classroom with 40 kids, with a range of >> ability levels that vary six or eight grade levels. Tell her that if she >> doesn't meet her state and federal academic goals she won't keep her job. >> Stick in a kid with ADD or ADHD. No way that kid is gonna get all he or >> she needs. >> >> If the secret to working with a true ADD kid is modifying the >> environment, you have to understand that y'all taxpayers aren't providing >> the resources necessary to accomplish the needed modifications. > > > > Agreed. But it starts in the home, not the school system. That's why > it's a societal problem. > > >> Is this proof of Toad's assertion that it is all societal? Only in the >> same sense that if you were really sick, you could stay home and be >> treated if you had the resources to do it. Instead, we have opted to do >> sick care in hospitals. > > > I see your point of view. But I disagree that ADD/ADHD is a factual > disease. It has no scientific diagnosis such as cancer or heart disease. > > -JC > ------------------------------ From: "Ray" Subject: Re: ndc-Katrina, Rita, Bush, Rove..its all a conspiracy. Date: 21 Sep 2005 16:18:30 -0700 RickNBarbInSD wrote: > Ken Fortenberry wrote: > > > Live bunnies are an *excellent* source of nutrition !! > > > > http://www.workingforchange.com/comic.cfm?itemid=19635 > > And Satan is WIDELY misunderstood! It's the media's fault. ------------------------------ ** FOR YOUR REFERENCE ** The service addresses, to which questions about the list itself and requests to be added to or deleted from it should be directed, are as follows: Internet: dead-flames-request@gdead.berkeley.edu Bitnet: dead-flames-request%gdead.berkeley.edu@ucbcmsa Uucp: ...!{ucbvax,uunet}!gdead.berkeley.edu!dead-flames-request You can send mail to the entire list (and rec.music.gdead) via one of these addresses: Internet: dead-flames@gdead.berkeley.edu Bitnet: dead-flames%gdead.berkeley.edu@ucbcmsa Uucp: ...!{ucbvax,uunet}!gdead.berkeley.edu!dead-flames End of Dead-Flames Digest ****************************** .