From: Digestifier To: Subject: Dead-Flames Digest #362 Dead-Flames Digest #362, Volume #48 Wed, 21 Sep 05 16:00:01 PDT Contents: Re: NYC advise needed (CC,NDC) ("dyrewlf") Re: Brave New World (JC Martin) Re: Brave New World ("Richard Morris") Re: No Direction Home DVD ("bill fletcher") Re: Brave New World (kpnnews@yahoo.com) Re: Brave New World ("Richard Morris") Re: Brave New World (JC Martin) Re: ndc-two subjects not to discuss with folks you like ("Carlisle") Re: ndc-Katrina, Rita, Bush, Rove..its all a conspiracy. ("RickNBarbInSD") Re: ndc-two subjects not to discuss with folks you like (JC Martin) Re: Brave New World ("Richard Morris") Re: Brave New World ("Richard Morris") Re: Brave New World ("Richard Morris") Re: 10 years ago today ("walstib77") Re: The REAL Disaster (NDC) ("Richard Morris") Re: Brave New World ("Richard Morris") Re: HERE is your REVIEW of From the Big Apple to the Big Easy at Radio City ("Schmoe") ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "dyrewlf" Subject: Re: NYC advise needed (CC,NDC) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 21:25:43 GMT "Spider Dawg" wrote in message news:slrndj3ihn.8dc.Spidergawdnospam@linux.site... > On 2005-09-21, kpnnews@yahoo.com wrote: >> >> Spider Dawg wrote: >>> >>> Thanks for all the info, these are exactly the types of tips I was >>> hoping for that Orbitz won't tell me about. Another friend mentioned >>> Subterranean Records in the Village. >> >> Allright folks let's start the recommendations: >> >> 1) Ollie's Noodle Shop - get some dumplings, some roast duck, and >> a noodle soup with roast pork, mai fun, and wontons. >> 2) d.b.a. is probably the best beer bar I have ever visited. They >> have stuff from around the world that is brewed specifically >> for this bar: http://www.drinkgoodstuff.com/ny/default.asp >> 3) Museum of Modern Art: If you are into museums, and you want to >> see a lot of the big paintings from Renoir, Van Gogh, etc, >> you should check it out. A visit will take a while, but you >> can limit it to the paintings. If you are into this type of >> thing, MoMA is a must-visit. >> 4) Katz's Deli (reference the "faking it" scene from When Harry >> Met Sally - it was filmed here FWIW): Carnegie Deli is where >> the tourists go, and it is good, but this place is more homey. >> Frickin' Awesome, plus you can get the much discussed Cel-Ray. >> http://www.katzdeli.com/ >> >> C'mon everyone, let's help a brother out. >> >> Kurt > > Here's my plans so far: Leaving home on foot with just a small backpack, > taking public transportation (which sucks around here) to the Amtrak > station in Detroit, then a thruway bus to Toledo, then the train to Penn > Station. $132 round trip. Got a hotel resevation within a mile of MSG for > $85/night, > private sink and vanity. Scheduled to arrive Tuesday afternoon, seeing > the Wednesday night show, then leaving Penn Station Thursday afternoon. > > I need tips on *cheap*, but good, places to eat. I'm blowing a lot of > dough for a working class guy in a struggling industry. I bought a 6-pack > of Cel-Ray this summer, I'm good on that for another 20 years ;) Ollie's > sounds great, as does Katz's and Geno's. Chinatown even better. I can't > imagine any pizza being better than Loui's right here in my 'hood, but > while in New York...... bagels too. We have what is called New York > Bagel in Ferndale, I gotta try the real McCoy and see how authentic this > stuff is. > > I love beer. Too much. I'm staying away from bars/brewpubs right now. > Not that I won't go in one, but I'm not seeking them out. > > Museums are cool, especially famous paintings, but with limited time > I probably won't see many. I'm interested in some of the dorky tourist > stuff too like the view from the ESB and a view of Lady Liberty. I'd > like to see a show or something Tuesday night but about the only thing > on Ticketmaster that looked interesting is an Islanders/Thrashers game. > There's so much to see in the area that I'm not planning anything in > particular, just start off on foot and see how far I get before it's > time to get back. > > I wish Indian Larry was still around :( > > I've printed a map of the subway system. Wow. I wish we had something > like that around here, all we have are lousy busses. I guess you can get > from the airport to Manhattan easily, but I got a thing for trains ;) > Plus the local train station is much closer than the airport. > > So, how about places to *stay away* from? > > Jim North of 110st Street after dark, unless you're going the world famous Appollo or Sylvia's for dinner. Other than that Manhattan is very safe at night. Also don't bother with Times Square, it just ain't the same since Guiliani got rid of all the peep shows and Disney and ESPN moved in. Steve ------------------------------ From: JC Martin Subject: Re: Brave New World Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 21:27:28 GMT Richard Morris wrote: > "Sherry" wrote in message > news:BF5706B0.54D59%sherry13@together.net... > >>>The media??? *LOL* >>> >>>You startin' to sound like a Republican. You think you know. But you >>>really don't. Pacifying a kid with medication is no miracle. >> >>Okay. Upon reading my posts and yours, JC, me actually *knowing* the >>amount >>of research I've done and continue to do, I can come to only one >>conclusion: >>you're an asshole. > > > I have to support Sherry. Everything she has said is consistent and > credible with respect to what I have also experienced with a pretty good > sample of kids. With extreme cases, you try all the other stuff and it > doesn't work. You modify the hell out of diet, classroom and home > environment, parenting practices, and so forth, and nothing makes a > difference. To second-guess with very limited data what Sherry has > experienced, and on that basis to make accusations about her judgment and > parenting is really, really unfortunate and disrespectful. This is where the mother gets protected my the men. I'm down for it. But everything I said rings true Richard. And I notice you didn't criticize Sherry for her absolutist pro-pharmacuetical propaganda. Her case doesn't represent the majority necessarily and there's certainly no media conspiracy to keep kids in a ADD state. That's truly laughable and that mindset derives from the largely right-wing pro-pharmaceutical lobbyists which put out this kind of information. If you want to provide scientific research (non-partisan, non-pharmaceutical company based) to back up any claim, I'm up for it. Again, I'm not against medication as a last resort. But I'm not confident that Sherry, given what she's posted here and her defensiveness, that she's tried the options I provided, which have had excellent results in people's homes. I know people with extreme cases who have gotten by without medication, so to say it can't be done is just ridiculous. When you try another therapy, doing it half way is not enough. -JC ------------------------------ From: "Richard Morris" Subject: Re: Brave New World Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 14:26:54 -0700 "Everybody's Gonna Be Happy" wrote in message news:skgYe.271$aB1.2717@eagle.america.net... snip > Maybe your kid is one of the tiny number of kids who actually do have a > medical problem and need to be drugged up so they don't burn down the > house. Maybe? Maybe you have missed the posts where she described the behaviors she was seeing. > The vast majority of kids being drugged up into nice little robots are > drugged so society doesn't have to deal with that dreaded word: > individuality. All kids must be exactly alike, so the school and daycare > bureacracies can treat them all exactly the same. Its easier and cheaper > than dealing with actual humans with their own personalities. > > This phony illness is caused by adults who have created a vacuous, > shallow, incredibly fast paced world for kids to live in. A world in > which parents are mostly absent, and expectations are appallingly low. > > I don't get how literally no one had any of these phony illnesses created > by doctors and drug companies when I was a kid, and now most kids are all > suddenly "sick", in need of mind altering drugs to function. This is all very romantic, but there is one problem with your theory. Ritalin, and the other meds that are used to control ADD are stimulants ... amphetamine-like drugs. Kids who take these meds who do not have ADD get wired just like you or I would on a cross-top. Kids with ADD experience the paradoxical effect: they slow down, discrimate, focus better. Why? This implies that there is indeed something going on with those kids. I don't think your romantic theory about ruthless parents and institutions out to drug the spirit out of kids tells the whole story. What I want to understand is why there are so many kids out there who are experiencing the symptoms that they are. They aren't just free spirits, Toad. My gut tells me that there are environmental factors ... but I am not a researcher. R. ------------------------------ From: "bill fletcher" Subject: Re: No Direction Home DVD Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 17:28:14 -0400 "mjd" wrote in message news:1127322011.768297.326130@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... > thanks - I knew that but couldn't remember the drummer(s) who replaced > him, so I took the lazy way out. bit of trivia... mickey jones was the scruffy looking buddy w/ the beard of tim what's-his-name's character in the 90's 'home improvement' tv series..... ------------------------------ From: kpnnews@yahoo.com Subject: Re: Brave New World Date: 21 Sep 2005 14:32:51 -0700 Richard Morris wrote: > wrote in message > > Yes, they did > > want to drug me back in the early 70's. > > The drugs wouldn't have worked with you. You don't have ADD. Well, this was in the early 70's. I don't know when ADD came about. I bet they wanted to give me a sedative. All I do know is that they wanted to "medicate" me. Kurt ------------------------------ From: "Richard Morris" Subject: Re: Brave New World Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 14:34:53 -0700 "Everybody's Gonna Be Happy" wrote in message news:ILgYe.275$aB1.2607@eagle.america.net... snip > Just because your kid may be one of the few is no reason for you to behave > as if this current practice of drugging up every 4th or 3rd or 2nd kid is > the greatest thing since sliced bread. Where did you get this information??????? I work in a school with 2,800 students. Of that group, about 70 have accommodation plans for one sort of disability or the other (not including traditional learning disabilities). Of that group, I would guesstimate that about half of those have been diagnosed with ADD. Of that group of 35 students, I would guesstimate that maybe two thirds are medicated. But even if it is the entire group, that represents a little over 1.5% of the students. Where did you get the idea that every 4th kid is being doped? R. ------------------------------ From: JC Martin Subject: Re: Brave New World Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 21:36:54 GMT Richard Morris wrote: > "Everybody's Gonna Be Happy" wrote in message > news:skgYe.271$aB1.2717@eagle.america.net... > > snip > > >>Maybe your kid is one of the tiny number of kids who actually do have a >>medical problem and need to be drugged up so they don't burn down the >>house. > > > Maybe? Maybe you have missed the posts where she described the behaviors > she was seeing. > > >>The vast majority of kids being drugged up into nice little robots are >>drugged so society doesn't have to deal with that dreaded word: >>individuality. All kids must be exactly alike, so the school and daycare >>bureacracies can treat them all exactly the same. Its easier and cheaper >>than dealing with actual humans with their own personalities. >> >>This phony illness is caused by adults who have created a vacuous, >>shallow, incredibly fast paced world for kids to live in. A world in >>which parents are mostly absent, and expectations are appallingly low. >> >>I don't get how literally no one had any of these phony illnesses created >>by doctors and drug companies when I was a kid, and now most kids are all >>suddenly "sick", in need of mind altering drugs to function. > > > This is all very romantic, but there is one problem with your theory. > > Ritalin, and the other meds that are used to control ADD are stimulants ... > amphetamine-like drugs. > > Kids who take these meds who do not have ADD get wired just like you or I > would on a cross-top. Kids with ADD experience the paradoxical effect: they > slow down, discrimate, focus better. Why? I know people that smoke pot and become paranoid and others who become happy. Why? I know people who have used coke. Some get spacey, some jittery. Why? I know people who eat sugar. Some get muscle aches and burned out and others feel fine. Why? I know people who drink coffee. Some turn into assholes by the end of the day. Others become cheery and friendly the more they drink. Why? I know people who drink alcohol. Some get loud and obnoxious after 2 drinks. Others become friendly, calm and outgoing. Why? > This implies that there is indeed something going on with those kids. You call that science? I'm sorry Richard, but that's pathetic. This is the kind of crap being spread throughout government funded institutions like public schools, college campuses, etc. and the pharmaceuticals are making a killin'. We built this damn country without all this crap. But today we need it? Please. >I > don't think your romantic theory about ruthless parents and institutions out > to drug the spirit out of kids tells the whole story. What I want to > understand is why there are so many kids out there who are experiencing the > symptoms that they are. And why so in America? > They aren't just free spirits, Toad. My gut tells me that there are > environmental factors ... but I am not a researcher. Parents that don't set boundaries for their kids run into these problems all the time. To discount parental influence and hype medication as the solution to man's mental ills is truly a disturbing trend, especially here in America and especially given that other methods work just as effectively without hindering the development of a child's brain. Sad. -JC ------------------------------ From: "Carlisle" Subject: Re: ndc-two subjects not to discuss with folks you like Date: 21 Sep 2005 14:48:04 -0700 JC Martin wrote: > Dylanstubs wrote: > > Sort of like trying to explain why the Spring '77 tour doesn't do much > > for you. :) > > > But see, I'm with Toad. These conversations/debates can lead to a lot > of useful information if people are willing to let their guard down, > take a little heat and respectfully disagree. I know it's hard, but > damn, I learn most of the good stuff in life out of conflict. We don't > all admit it at the time, but these debates dip into a great well of > life experience and fill our cups if we're thirsty enough. > > -JC Well said, JC. ------------------------------ From: "RickNBarbInSD" Subject: Re: ndc-Katrina, Rita, Bush, Rove..its all a conspiracy. Date: 21 Sep 2005 14:53:14 -0700 Ken Fortenberry wrote: > Live bunnies are an *excellent* source of nutrition !! > > http://www.workingforchange.com/comic.cfm?itemid=19635 And Satan is WIDELY misunderstood! ------------------------------ From: JC Martin Subject: Re: ndc-two subjects not to discuss with folks you like Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 21:58:26 GMT Carlisle wrote: > JC Martin wrote: > >>Dylanstubs wrote: >> >>>Sort of like trying to explain why the Spring '77 tour doesn't do much >>>for you. :) >> >> >>But see, I'm with Toad. These conversations/debates can lead to a lot >>of useful information if people are willing to let their guard down, >>take a little heat and respectfully disagree. I know it's hard, but >>damn, I learn most of the good stuff in life out of conflict. We don't >>all admit it at the time, but these debates dip into a great well of >>life experience and fill our cups if we're thirsty enough. >> >>-JC > > > Well said, JC. > Ohhh, don't cheer me too much. I'm the bad guy for moment and maybe even weeks after today. ;-) Remember what I told you? RMG never remains static. Never. Old alliances and friends become enemies. Enemies become friends. Another bright and sunny, yet paradoxical day here in digital space. Ain't Usenet great? -JC ------------------------------ From: "Richard Morris" Subject: Re: Brave New World Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 14:28:45 -0700 wrote in message news:1127322864.850126.102050@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... > > Everybody's Gonna Be Happy wrote: >> "Stephen St." wrote in message >> news:LFdYe.760$G64.463@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com... >> > >> > "Richard Morris" wrote in message >> > news:MqmdnbaiRKQe-KzeRVn-gg@comcast.com... >> > >> >> >> >> Sherry, where are you getting the information about the brain scan as >> >> a >> >> diagnostic tool? >> > >> >> The most definitive diagnostic tool is the administration of >> >> Ritalin. >> >> If it helps, one has ADD/ADHD. If not, not! >> > >> > I don't have kids, so excuse me for asking a goofy question..but... >> > >> > are you serious about how they diagnose the syndrome? Give the kid a >> > few >> > doses of ritalin and if they react a certain way, they have ADD? Wow, >> > that seems a bit absurd to me. Im sure the pharma companies that make >> > it >> > love that idea, almost like a dealer giving out samples of smack-your >> > bound to get a few people hooked. >> > >> > Sorry if I mis understood your post RM >> >> >> It blows my mind that any parent would seriously consider drugging up >> their >> kid with some freaky chemical just because some nitwit doctor gets >> kickbacks >> from some giant drug conglomerate. >> >> Kids are naturally impatient and bouncy. Since most of them have no >> parents >> around to guide or raise them during most of their day, and since the >> schools they leave them at are often dull and incredibly boring, it >> shouldn't surprise anyone that kids get antsie. > > My personal history: 3rd grade = detention for acting up almost every > day, 4th grade = detention everyday, teacher recommends putting me on > medication. Kurt is put in another school with a gifted program for > unchallenged kids (me!). That worked for a while, but the academics > really > sucked. Kurt gets put in a Christian Brothers school in City Park in > New Orleans. Kurt is challenged. Kurt is occupied. Kurt excels. In > fact, Kurt still gives money to this school. (apologies for the > Booie-ishness > of this post). > > I can only look back in hindsight, but the reality was that I simply > was > bored at school. Certain teachers would have me tutor the other kids, > and give me tasks to do. Other teachers had no clue on how to control > me. > I am not Einstien, but soimething in my personality just made me antsy > when I wasn't interested in what was occurring around me. Yes, they did > want to drug me back in the early 70's. > > That being said, there definitely are cases of brain-not-focus chemical > imbalances. I simply cannot imagine medicated thought control > mechanisms > in my head. The drugs wouldn't have worked with you. You don't have ADD. R. ------------------------------ From: "Richard Morris" Subject: Re: Brave New World Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 15:05:26 -0700 "JC Martin" wrote in message news:sFiYe.179$u8.2852@typhoon.sonic.net... > kpnnews@yahoo.com wrote: >> JC Martin wrote: >> >>>No, I'm not Catholic. >> >> >> Neither am I; in fact, I consider myself the anti-Catholic. >> Don't get me started. However, those Brothers get all my >> respect for what they did and do. Mine wasn't a boarding >> school. It was where challenging kids went. > > > Oh, we were challenging all right. ;-) I'm famous there for throwing a > rock at a nun. Fortunately, it just grazed her nose. And yeah, she > forgave like a good Christian would. Was that before or after she beat the shit out of you? R. ------------------------------ From: "Richard Morris" Subject: Re: Brave New World Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 15:03:50 -0700 "JC Martin" wrote in message news:_eiYe.171$u8.2779@typhoon.sonic.net... > Sherry wrote: >>>I had an understanding once that the reason kids take drivers ed at 16, >>>is >>>because neurologically, the time is ripe. Exactly what you're describing >>>about his driving abilities is typical stuff. He is putting perceptual >>>vision >>>together with gross motor. It takes a lot of coordination and >>>concentration. >>>And lots of practice! And it's all happening in the brain. >>> >>>Just like with any stage Sherry, we all go through it, just at our own >>>speed. >>> >> >> >> Only, he's 18, and frustrated that all the kids who are over 16 he knows, >> have their license. :( Makes him feel like the "hulking re-todd in the >> corner"... made worse because he is intelligent. Maybe I hurt more for >> him >> than he actually does. Dunno. Might be a mom thing. > > > Try getting him off sugar. Try getting him to a therapist who specializes > in time management and goal setting. Oh, I forgot, you know best. And > I'm an asshole! ;-) But really, there's no reason he can't get his > license at 18. I didn't pass the first two times. JC, it is irresponsible to draw conclusions from a sample of one--yourself--and decide that what you experienced is the same as what others have experienced. I work with a woman who adopted a girl as an infant, and was later diagnosed with "ADD inattentive type". This woman, who is a middle school teacher, could probably write the book on alternative ADD treatments. She has researched the hell out of it, tried many things to see what works. Diet? No effect. Strict limits? Hehe. How do you put strict limits on someone when they come home from school ... you have to sit them down, control outside stimuli, prompt them through homework, only to have the kid go to school the next day and forget to turn the homework in because she is so unfocused? What limits would resolve that? They have indeed put strict limits on her behavior, with logical consequences for misbehavior. Unfortunately, ADD-related behavior is not particularly misbehavior. What good does it do to punish a kid for doing something that they can't control, like forgetting to bring home her books? They tried logical consequences ... homework not done? You can't go anywhere until it is. The result was that Rachel didn't get to go anywhere for months because she couldn't come home, sit down and work through her homework like other kids. This is a kid that teachers have to prompt every day to take out notebook and pen! Every day! They finally faced the fact that because Rachel had no sense of structure or order, they had to provide it externally. Modify the classrrom environment with respect to seating. Lots of teacher prompts. Organize the hell out of her at home with lots of consistency and structure, and lots of directing her. But none of it was truly corrective. Take away the interventions, and she was right back to being her unfocused self, incapable of demonstrating anywhere near the level of responsibility that her age-mates demonstrate. In this girl's case, there may have been prenatal exposure to a variety of drugs. Which leads me sometimes to think that there actually may be a variety of causes that result in similar behaviors. Who kknows? R. ------------------------------ From: "walstib77" Subject: Re: 10 years ago today Date: 21 Sep 2005 15:11:26 -0700 Ten years ago from this coming Tuesday, I would have been using my tickets to see the Dead at MSG on my 30th birthday, from the third row. Sigh, indeed. ------------------------------ From: "Richard Morris" Subject: Re: The REAL Disaster (NDC) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 15:21:20 -0700 "dyrewlf" wrote in message news:GYgYe.6557$9a2.1777@trnddc04... > > "Richard Morris" wrote in message > news:w92dnZGecOIzybLeRVn-3Q@comcast.com... >> > >> >> That may sound good to you in a general sense, but in the context of skin >> color, I can't agree with you. What your are telling the kid, then, is >> that because they are black, they have to work harder than white kids to >> achieve the same level of success. You are telling them that the world >> is unfair, that the playing field is not level because they are black. >> > > Since when is it a bad idea to teach kids about the realities of life. The > world is unfair. Don't you think they can already figure that out by the > fact that by the social situation there in? Right now for black people to > succeed they need to do things better. They have to work harder, they have > to overcome other people misconceptions. As they start to have more > success the barriers will start to break down. A good example of this is > women becoming doctors. Women had to be better to succeed, they had to > work harder. They had to get better grades simply to get the chance, now > women account for about half of all admissions and are for the most part > accepted by their peers. > > >> How long would it take you, if you were a black kid, to hate white people >> under those circumstances? > > You can spend your time mired in hate or you can do something to make a > bad situation better. Right or wrong race will always be a factor. What > can be done is to minimize the effects of race. That requires a concerted > effort on black society to change that. People won't change there opinions > black people until the face that is put forward is different, and right > now the face of black people is that of the fatherless child, the > criminal, the addict etc. I know that this is not the face of the average > black, but until the face of the average black is what we see on the news > , this is the face white America will see. Steve Gee. Something tells me that you are white. Very white. R. ------------------------------ From: "Richard Morris" Subject: Re: Brave New World Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 15:24:22 -0700 "Stephen St." wrote in message news:ZUjYe.1555$Ba2.709@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net... > > "Richard Morris" wrote in message > news:8-OdnZmKKKt9VazeRVn-oQ@comcast.com... >> >> Well. Let me first say that I don't approve of drugging kids >> indiscriminately! >> >> On the other hand, if you have ever worked with a true ADD kid, then you >> would have to reconsider your comments above. >> >> We are not talking about squirrely kids with an abundance of energy here >> ... we are talking about kids who seem not to have the ability to >> discrimate amongst all the sense data coming in to them, and who appear >> not to have a linear, sequential, logical bone in their bodies. They are >> incredibly abstract and highly disorganized and sort of random. > > With all respect to your post and information... > > The last paragraph sounds like me at Hampton 5/1/81 Yep ... like someone on acid, it seems like for some of the kids they just can't filter sense data and organize it. R. ------------------------------ Reply-To: "Schmoe" From: "Schmoe" Crossposted-To: rec.music.phish Subject: Re: HERE is your REVIEW of From the Big Apple to the Big Easy at Radio City Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 18:25:37 -0400 "neurodancer" wrote in message news:1127328221.903716.3950@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com... > > > Hey Schmoe > There's another review on rec.music.phish (not crossposted to rmgd) > that I think you'll like even more. The guy goes on and on about how > hoplessly boring and trite Trey is now. Not that I agree but it's > pretty funny. Thanks! Now that's a review I can appreciate . (oops, hope I didn't cross-post at RMP) Doh! ------------------------------ ** FOR YOUR REFERENCE ** The service addresses, to which questions about the list itself and requests to be added to or deleted from it should be directed, are as follows: Internet: dead-flames-request@gdead.berkeley.edu Bitnet: dead-flames-request%gdead.berkeley.edu@ucbcmsa Uucp: ...!{ucbvax,uunet}!gdead.berkeley.edu!dead-flames-request You can send mail to the entire list (and rec.music.gdead) via one of these addresses: Internet: dead-flames@gdead.berkeley.edu Bitnet: dead-flames%gdead.berkeley.edu@ucbcmsa Uucp: ...!{ucbvax,uunet}!gdead.berkeley.edu!dead-flames End of Dead-Flames Digest ****************************** .