From: Digestifier To: Subject: Dead-Flames Digest #357 Dead-Flames Digest #357, Volume #48 Wed, 21 Sep 05 11:00:02 PDT Contents: Re: Brave New World (JC Martin) Re: Brave New World (greek_philosophizer@hotmail.com) Re: Brave New World (JC Martin) Re: Brave New World ("The Iron Muffin") Re: Brave New World ("Everybody's Gonna Be Happy") Re: heiney!!! ("scarletbgonias@hotmail.com") Re: Brave New World ("Everybody's Gonna Be Happy") Re: weeds ("Roxanne McDaniel") Re: Brave New World (JC Martin) Re: Rock and Roll HOF Nominees Announced (Brad Greer) Re: Brave New World (JC Martin) Re: Brave New World ("Everybody's Gonna Be Happy") Re: Brave New World (Sherry) Re: Brave New World (JC Martin) Re: Brave New World (JC Martin) rock star (ndc) ("Roxanne McDaniel") No Direction Home DVD (Joe) Re: issues (ndc) ("Roxanne McDaniel") Re: The REAL Disaster (NDC) ("dyrewlf") Re: Brave New World (JC Martin) Re: Brave New World (Sherry) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JC Martin Subject: Re: Brave New World Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 17:21:26 GMT Everybody's Gonna Be Happy wrote: > "JC Martin" wrote in message > > You don't have ADD issues, JC. > > You are just JC, plain and simple. Some of us have longer attention spans > than others. There is no need to place a medical label on it. > > The crazy, fast paced, irresponsible, immediate gratification filled, lazy, > unchallenging, contradictory world we have created for kids is why many of > them don't function in it well. > > From what I recall reading about your past I think its pretty clear your > environment contributed to whatever issues you think you have. It sure > isn't a medical problem deserving of a label. No, I agree. But I work best with some sort of structure around me, and I don't always make the right choices when my environment is chaotic. As an adult, it's not so much the attention span anymore as it is just sticking to a task that you want to complete, but can't because your environment around it becomes overwhelming for whatever reason. I know everyone has that problem to some degree, but I'm pretty bad. I don't mind the diagnosis so much as long as its not a pathway for parents to simply drug children without trying other alternatives first and I think cognitive therapy, goal setting and even meditation can help well with adults. With kids, I suspect nutrition, exercise and a lack of boundaries contribute to this problem. Of course, any creativity should be recognized for what it is and not medicated. Parents and teachers should drug children just because they're hyper, that's for sure. Just pathetic the logic behind that. Peas, JC ------------------------------ From: greek_philosophizer@hotmail.com Subject: Re: Brave New World Date: 21 Sep 2005 10:24:20 -0700 Obviously, not all behaviour problems can be traced > to sugar intake, but I wonder how many could be given all the soda > drinking > I see by kids. If we live in a world where everybody is different then at most there can be only one person who is average. Everybody else it seems now qualifies for a manufactured chemical of some sort. .. ------------------------------ From: JC Martin Subject: Re: Brave New World Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 17:25:04 GMT kpnnews@yahoo.com wrote: > Everybody's Gonna Be Happy wrote: > >>"Stephen St." wrote in message >>news:LFdYe.760$G64.463@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com... >> >>>"Richard Morris" wrote in message >>>news:MqmdnbaiRKQe-KzeRVn-gg@comcast.com... >>> >>> >>>>Sherry, where are you getting the information about the brain scan as a >>>>diagnostic tool? >>> >>>> The most definitive diagnostic tool is the administration of Ritalin. >>>>If it helps, one has ADD/ADHD. If not, not! >>> >>>I don't have kids, so excuse me for asking a goofy question..but... >>> >>>are you serious about how they diagnose the syndrome? Give the kid a few >>>doses of ritalin and if they react a certain way, they have ADD? Wow, >>>that seems a bit absurd to me. Im sure the pharma companies that make it >>>love that idea, almost like a dealer giving out samples of smack-your >>>bound to get a few people hooked. >>> >>>Sorry if I mis understood your post RM >> >> >>It blows my mind that any parent would seriously consider drugging up their >>kid with some freaky chemical just because some nitwit doctor gets kickbacks >>from some giant drug conglomerate. >> >>Kids are naturally impatient and bouncy. Since most of them have no parents >>around to guide or raise them during most of their day, and since the >>schools they leave them at are often dull and incredibly boring, it >>shouldn't surprise anyone that kids get antsie. > > > My personal history: 3rd grade = detention for acting up almost every > day, 4th grade = detention everyday, teacher recommends putting me on > medication. Kurt is put in another school with a gifted program for > unchallenged kids (me!). That worked for a while, but the academics > really > sucked. Kurt gets put in a Christian Brothers school in City Park in > New Orleans. Kurt is challenged. Kurt is occupied. Kurt excels. In > fact, Kurt still gives money to this school. (apologies for the > Booie-ishness > of this post). Hey Kurt, Hanna Boys Center (a Catholic boarding school here in Sonoma) gave me the best education I ever had. I was there 3 plus years. They set boundaries, had strict schedules to follow, lots of exercise, etc. It's the place I learned how to manage myself. Unfortunately I didn't learn many of those lessons until later in life. No, I'm not Catholic. Peas, JC ------------------------------ Reply-To: "The Iron Muffin" From: "The Iron Muffin" Subject: Re: Brave New World Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 11:05:59 -0400 Everybody's Gonna Be Happy wrote: (re: ADHD) > What these antsie kids need is some time with their family > and a lot of chores to do, followed by some good physical > exercise in the fresh air, be it a sport or just the freedom to > run around and climb trees. Challenges, responsibilities, > and a place to run around. This is what kids are supposed > to do, but since most kids today live in cramped cities or > walled in suburbs they don't have the chance. Throw in > hundreds of hours on the game machine and in front of the > quick cutting television, and this is what we get. Raise them > as kids and all of a sudden there is no such thing as ADD. > There wasn't when I was a kid. This is an environemtally > caused problem, its not in their genes. HRYK. What they now call "ADHD" used to be called "an adventurous spirit and a curious mind". -- The Iron Muffin DEAD FREAKS UNITE Who are you? Where are you? How are you? ------------------------------ From: "Everybody's Gonna Be Happy" Subject: Re: Brave New World Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 10:29:14 -0700 "Sherry" wrote in message news:BF56F750.54D2E%sherry13@together.net... >> The parents of those kids are the ones who should be drugged; drugged to >> the >> point where they can take being a parent and deal with having kids who do >> what kids naturally do when neglected and left unchallenged. > Toad, please see my posts before throwing out statement about something > you > really don't know anything about. I live it. And have for nearly 19 years > now. Or you could read my all of all of my posts and understand that it sounds to me that your kid may be one of the tiny number of kids who need to be drugged up avoid them killing themselves or someone else (the only reason I can think of to change a kid's personality with chemicals). For the vast majority of kids being subjected to this outrage, its totally unnecessary and symptomatic of the decline of parenting and the appreciation of individuality. Just because your kid may be one of the few is no reason for you to behave as if this current practice of drugging up every 4th or 3rd or 2nd kid is the greatest thing since sliced bread. Maybe you're super great parent who did everything possible before resorting to drugs. I can guarantee you that most parents who drug their kids aren't like you. They wake up in the morning, drop their kids at a kiddie warehouse or a boring, unchallenging school, then when the kid gets home he has nothing to do but watch TV or play the X-box. Mom and dad don't know his friends, what he does in school, and engage in few if any activities together. He either has no chores and nowhere safe to go, or he's running from one event, practice, game etc. to another on a strict adult-like schedule. There is no real relaxation (not sloth, not sleeping) in which the kid can explore the world on his own. This goes on for 18 years before the kid finally stumbles into the real world. Then he runs with the only real life priority he's ever known: a need for instant gratification. I take pain pills. I'm weaning off them now, as my condition is getting better. I strongly support the availability of opiates to help people in pain. That doesn't mean that since I needed it that I think half the country should take them because they don't like feeling blue occasionally. Pills are for sick people. The vast majority of kids on Ritalin aren't sick. EGBG ------------------------------ From: "scarletbgonias@hotmail.com" Subject: Re: heiney!!! Date: 21 Sep 2005 10:32:25 -0700 Well, at least those greeney's were saved from the ravages of Katrina. It could have been worse. This picture may be kind of hard to take for some of you. If you look closely, you can see what appear to be some survivors of the tragic accident still in the wreckage. Although the picture is quite graphic, it makes you realize how quickly our loved ones can be taken from us. Take a moment today and spend some time with those you love, and let this be a chilling reminder to all of you that life is just too short. I will be in seclusion for the remainder of the day... http://www.kodakgallery.com/PhotoView.jsp?&collid=11283957906&photoid=988587861106 Theresa ------------------------------ From: "Everybody's Gonna Be Happy" Subject: Re: Brave New World Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 10:30:31 -0700 "Joe" wrote in message news:3pddcgF9hlj8U1@individual.net... > >Campaigners believe that the increasing use of Ritalin follows > >the trend in America where it has been prescribed to children as > >young as 15 months. > > I can see the scenario now: > > Another American youth is approached by Doctor Mengele-Bush. "Your > microchip-papers, please" he barks. > > As the Evil Doctor inserts the Microchip into his Diebold chip reader, > he's shocked to learn that the youth is a threat to society, a terrorist > in the making. After all, the youth was fit and trim, an indication that > he engaged in the anti-American activity known as physical exercise. > Doctor Mengele-Bush thought to himself, "The only good American is an > obese, compliant American." > > As the Evil Doctor scanned the youth's history, he became more and more > concerned. Said youth ate organic food, and had never been to Taco Bell. > Strike 2, barked the Evil Nazi "Doctor." > > "Vat else do ve have here?" mused Mengele-Bush. Aha. Here it is; the > smoking gun. Said youth gets good grades at school. Clearly, having a > brain is anti-American. It's then that the Criminal Fascist Monster > decrees: > > "Make him comply with Fascist society. Drug him. Make him a Little > Hitler." > > And thus, another Ritalin was crammed down the throat of a Future > Fascist-Republican. > > And, all was well in America. > > Skip forward 20 years, and said youth is the paragon of American virtue: > He's in the Army now, spreading McDonald's throughout the world, killing > all who stand in the way of Fascist-Republican "Freedom." > > In his own words, "We have a world to conquer and pollute. Long Live > Enforced Drugging. Long Live Doctor Mengele-Bush for setting me straight. > Now, excuse me, as I have Genocide to commit." > > Ain't America Great? > > Joe The Bush administration actually proposed that all schoolkids be tested by shrinks for this phony ADD BS and then drugged appropriately. You're not all that far off on this one................ EGBH ------------------------------ From: "Roxanne McDaniel" Subject: Re: weeds Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 17:32:34 GMT "Sean G." <> wrote in message ... : Anyone watch Showtime's series called Weeds? : : Then here's the jewel! She just sent me a copy of a show that was on this : past weekend on industrial hemp in USA. I really thought I knew a lot about : hemp until I watched that program. Did anyone else see this? She has the : Dish network and said it was on one other "alternative" channels. : I think you're confusing two different shows. Showtime's Weeds is about a upper-middle class suburban housewife who turns to selling marijuana after her husband suddenly dies. It's most notable for Mary-Louise Parker as MILF and Kevin Nealon as her stoner accountant. It's a good series, but it should never be known as having any educational value regarding marijuana, hemp, or the dealing business. Any chance you mean Grass, a documentary narrated by Woddy Harrelson? http://worldfilm.about.com/library/00nowplaying/blgrass.htm ******************************************** I went back and looked at the title. Its' called Hemp and the Rule of Law. She taped it off Dish Network late at night on one to the alternative channels. ------------------------------ From: JC Martin Subject: Re: Brave New World Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 17:35:01 GMT Everybody's Gonna Be Happy wrote: > "Sherry" wrote in message > news:BF56F750.54D2E%sherry13@together.net... > >>>The parents of those kids are the ones who should be drugged; drugged to >>>the >>>point where they can take being a parent and deal with having kids who do >>>what kids naturally do when neglected and left unchallenged. > > >>Toad, please see my posts before throwing out statement about something >>you >>really don't know anything about. I live it. And have for nearly 19 years >>now. > > > Or you could read my all of all of my posts and understand that it sounds to > me that your kid may be one of the tiny number of kids who need to be > drugged up avoid them killing themselves or someone else (the only reason I > can think of to change a kid's personality with chemicals). Or, and I hate to say it, it may be that Sherry didn't attempt to try other methods first, like taking her kid off of sugar, setting boundaries, scheduling, exercise, etc. It's okay to have not known about other options way back when, but it's a sin of the highest order to push drugs on other children just because your kid is on the stuff when there are other methods out there that actually work. Peas, -JC ------------------------------ From: Brad Greer Subject: Re: Rock and Roll HOF Nominees Announced Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 13:30:24 -0400 On 21 Sep 2005 10:14:38 -0700, "neurodancer" wrote: > >Brad Greer wrote: >> On 21 Sep 2005 03:11:24 GMT, Joe wrote: >> >> >If the Sex Pistols get in, will Sid Vicious be the first murderer to make >> >the R&R HOF? >> > >> >The only other murderer musician I know of is Rick Stevens, from Tower of >> >Power. >> > >> Jim Gordon (drummer for Derek and the Dominos and other bands) killed >> his mother, claiming she was channeling evil spirits or something >> similar. He's not in the Rock and Roll HOF, though. > > >He should be, along with the rest of the Dominoes. His work on Derek & >the Dominoes Live is some of the best rock 'n roll drumming there is, >IMHO. >ND I don't think Derek and the Dominos were together long enough, nor had enough of an impact on rock and roll, to justify a nomination into the HOF. Of course, I also think the whole idea of a rock and roll HOF is just plain silly, so what do I know about qualifications for induction? ------------------------------ From: JC Martin Subject: Re: Brave New World Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 17:37:21 GMT Everybody's Gonna Be Happy wrote: > "Joe" wrote in message > > The Bush administration actually proposed that all schoolkids be tested by > shrinks for this phony ADD BS and then drugged appropriately. > > You're not all that far off on this one................ George Bush Sr. admitted in his bio that he used psychiatric medication during his presidency. I personally believe Dubya uses them as well. All of those twitches and odd body movements seem involuntary. -JC ------------------------------ From: "Everybody's Gonna Be Happy" Subject: Re: Brave New World Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 10:37:15 -0700 "JC Martin" wrote in message news:qEgYe.147$u8.2627@typhoon.sonic.net... > Everybody's Gonna Be Happy wrote: >> "JC Martin" wrote in message > > >> >> You don't have ADD issues, JC. >> >> You are just JC, plain and simple. Some of us have longer attention >> spans than others. There is no need to place a medical label on it. >> >> The crazy, fast paced, irresponsible, immediate gratification filled, >> lazy, unchallenging, contradictory world we have created for kids is why >> many of them don't function in it well. >> >> From what I recall reading about your past I think its pretty clear your >> environment contributed to whatever issues you think you have. It sure >> isn't a medical problem deserving of a label. > No, I agree. But I work best with some sort of structure around me, and > I don't always make the right choices when my environment is chaotic. As > an adult, it's not so much the attention span anymore as it is just > sticking to a task that you want to complete, but can't because your > environment around it becomes overwhelming for whatever reason. I know > everyone has that problem to some degree, but I'm pretty bad. I got so sick of my job and all it entailed and required me to do I quit. I couldn't focus either, but not because I have a mental illness. It was because my job had become worse than drudgery. I'm not sick, I just know what's good for me! You know what's best for you. You have an issue in that area. You adapt. You should hear some of my issues........... > I don't mind the diagnosis so much as long as its not a pathway for > parents to simply drug children without trying other alternatives first > and I think cognitive therapy, goal setting and even meditation can help > well with adults. With kids, I suspect nutrition, exercise and a lack of > boundaries contribute to this problem. Of course, any creativity should > be recognized for what it is and not medicated. Parents and teachers > should drug children just because they're hyper, that's for sure. Just > pathetic the logic behind that. I agree totally. EGBH ------------------------------ Subject: Re: Brave New World From: Sherry Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 17:37:10 GMT > When you put your kid on medication, did you attempt other > solutions beforehand? Ya know, exercise, nutrition, setting boundaries, > scheduling, etc.? Did you read ANY of my posts? I'm pretty sure I already said we did - the drugs were a last resort. Again and again, as we tried different methods throughout his growing-up, which is still in process. Sherry in Vermont ------------------------------ From: JC Martin Subject: Re: Brave New World Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 17:38:54 GMT Sherry wrote: >>When you put your kid on medication, did you attempt other >>solutions beforehand? Ya know, exercise, nutrition, setting boundaries, >>scheduling, etc.? > > > Did you read ANY of my posts? I'm pretty sure I already said we did - the > drugs were a last resort. Again and again, as we tried different methods > throughout his growing-up, which is still in process. Did you take him off sugar and set strict boundaries? -JC ------------------------------ From: JC Martin Subject: Re: Brave New World Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 17:41:04 GMT Everybody's Gonna Be Happy wrote: > "JC Martin" wrote in message >>I don't mind the diagnosis so much as long as its not a pathway for >>parents to simply drug children without trying other alternatives first >>and I think cognitive therapy, goal setting and even meditation can help >>well with adults. With kids, I suspect nutrition, exercise and a lack of >>boundaries contribute to this problem. Of course, any creativity should >>be recognized for what it is and not medicated. Parents and teachers >>should drug children just because they're hyper, that's for sure. Just >>pathetic the logic behind that. > > > I agree totally. ....*shouldn't* I mean. See, couldn't even complete the damn word! ;-) Peas, JC ------------------------------ From: "Roxanne McDaniel" Subject: rock star (ndc) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 17:40:41 GMT so did anyone follow this? Can you believe this guy WON??? http://www.cbs.com/primetime/rock_star/ But Dave Navarro...mmmm! :) ------------------------------ From: Joe Subject: No Direction Home DVD Date: 21 Sep 2005 15:04:37 GMT Oh my gawd. I only made it thru half of No Direction Home, and without a doubt, it ranks right up there among the best ever made. It's just unbelievable. And, the way it's done, it's like Dylan himself is the narrator/host. It's one of the greatest rock flicks ever; maybe even one of the best documentaries ever made. I'm blown away. So, what else is new? Joe ------------------------------ From: "Roxanne McDaniel" Subject: Re: issues (ndc) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 17:44:01 GMT "band beyond description" > wrote in message > Here's a quick list off the top of my head. Feel free to add your own. > 1. Corporate accountability > 2. Immigration yeah! gotta keep those Morton Grovians in check; keep 'em from running riot over in your neck of the woods! ;-) -- Peace, Steve ************************* you're TERRIBLE! :') Actually it's the reverse... they want to keep me out of their neck 'o the woods! ------------------------------ From: "dyrewlf" Subject: Re: The REAL Disaster (NDC) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 17:43:02 GMT "Richard Morris" wrote in message news:w92dnZGecOIzybLeRVn-3Q@comcast.com... > > > That may sound good to you in a general sense, but in the context of skin > color, I can't agree with you. What your are telling the kid, then, is > that because they are black, they have to work harder than white kids to > achieve the same level of success. You are telling them that the world is > unfair, that the playing field is not level because they are black. > Since when is it a bad idea to teach kids about the realities of life. The world is unfair. Don't you think they can already figure that out by the fact that by the social situation there in? Right now for black people to succeed they need to do things better. They have to work harder, they have to overcome other people misconceptions. As they start to have more success the barriers will start to break down. A good example of this is women becoming doctors. Women had to be better to succeed, they had to work harder. They had to get better grades simply to get the chance, now women account for about half of all admissions and are for the most part accepted by their peers. > How long would it take you, if you were a black kid, to hate white people > under those circumstances? You can spend your time mired in hate or you can do something to make a bad situation better. Right or wrong race will always be a factor. What can be done is to minimize the effects of race. That requires a concerted effort on black society to change that. People won't change there opinions black people until the face that is put forward is different, and right now the face of black people is that of the fatherless child, the criminal, the addict etc. I know that this is not the face of the average black, but until the face of the average black is what we see on the news , this is the face white America will see. Steve ------------------------------ From: JC Martin Subject: Re: Brave New World Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 17:46:36 GMT JC Martin wrote: > Sherry wrote: > >>> When you put your kid on medication, did you attempt other >>> solutions beforehand? Ya know, exercise, nutrition, setting boundaries, >>> scheduling, etc.? >> >> >> >> Did you read ANY of my posts? I'm pretty sure I already said we did - the >> drugs were a last resort. Again and again, as we tried different methods >> throughout his growing-up, which is still in process. > > > > Did you take him off sugar and set strict boundaries? Ya know, you don't have to answer. Let's just say I have very strong opinions on these matters and my opinions certainly don't come from the *media*. They in fact come from my own research. So let's not make so many assumptions here. I have little doubt that you're a caring, loving mother who wants the best for your family. No reason for me to assume you didn't take the right steps. On the flip side, there's no reason for you to assume that my information and research is merely media-driven. And I'll leave it at that. Peas, JC ------------------------------ Subject: Re: Brave New World From: Sherry Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 17:46:15 GMT > Just because your kid may be one of the few is no reason for you to behave > as if this current practice of drugging up every 4th or 3rd or 2nd kid is > the greatest thing since sliced bread. Maybe you're super great parent who > did everything possible before resorting to drugs. I can guarantee you that > most parents who drug their kids aren't like you. They wake up in the > morning, drop their kids at a kiddie warehouse or a boring, unchallenging > school, then when the kid gets home he has nothing to do but watch TV or > play the X-box. Mom and dad don't know his friends, what he does in school, > and engage in few if any activities together. He either has no chores and > nowhere safe to go, or he's running from one event, practice, game etc. to > another on a strict adult-like schedule. There is no real relaxation (not > sloth, not sleeping) in which the kid can explore the world on his own. > This goes on for 18 years before the kid finally stumbles into the real > world. Then he runs with the only real life priority he's ever known: a > need for instant gratification. Well, my kid and the network of some ~100 moms I knew/still know. We don't just look for new drugs, but other methods as well. But you'd be surprised (though I wouldn't, based on just the reponse here) how many people are quick to think these parents "drugged their kids out of laziness". Just not true in my world. That's my point. I've never actually met a kid who was on ADHD drugs for ADHD who did NOT have it. Perhaps they are out there - but where? I'm not talking "news reports", but from people experiencing it for real. Like Bush's "everything's great" lala stories spewed thru the media, there's so often no truth behind the stories. There may be parents like above who do that, but I am no super parent, either. My kids ain't perfect, and I don't expect or want them to be. They are themselves, and I love them regardless. The kids I know with parents like that above weren't medicated (not that I am saying they should have been, I don't know) - just ignored. Sherry in Vermont ------------------------------ ** FOR YOUR REFERENCE ** The service addresses, to which questions about the list itself and requests to be added to or deleted from it should be directed, are as follows: Internet: dead-flames-request@gdead.berkeley.edu Bitnet: dead-flames-request%gdead.berkeley.edu@ucbcmsa Uucp: ...!{ucbvax,uunet}!gdead.berkeley.edu!dead-flames-request You can send mail to the entire list (and rec.music.gdead) via one of these addresses: Internet: dead-flames@gdead.berkeley.edu Bitnet: dead-flames%gdead.berkeley.edu@ucbcmsa Uucp: ...!{ucbvax,uunet}!gdead.berkeley.edu!dead-flames End of Dead-Flames Digest ****************************** .