From: Digestifier To: Subject: Dead-Flames Digest #356 Dead-Flames Digest #356, Volume #48 Wed, 21 Sep 05 11:00:02 PDT Contents: Re: Brave New World ("neurodancer") Re: What's It Like in Atlantic City? ("pookietooth") Re: Laurie Anderson??? ("Pocky Way") Re: No Direction Home DVD ("mjd") Re: No Direction Home DVD ("mjd") Re: Brave New World ("Everybody's Gonna Be Happy") Re: Brave New World (JC Martin) Re: What's It Like in Atlantic City? ("mjd") Re: Brave New World ("Everybody's Gonna Be Happy") Re: Brave New World (JC Martin) Re: Brave New World ("Everybody's Gonna Be Happy") Re: Pope to ban gay seminarians (NDC) ("neurodancer") Re: heiney!!! ("TNKEV") Re: Brave New World (kpnnews@yahoo.com) Re: Brave New World ("Everybody's Gonna Be Happy") Re: Rock and Roll HOF Nominees Announced ("neurodancer") Re: Laurie Anderson??? ("Dave Kelly") Re: HERE is your REVIEW of From the Big Apple to the Big Easy at Radio City ("Schmoe") Re: Owsley on Tapers Back Then (Brad Greer) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "neurodancer" Subject: Re: Brave New World Date: 21 Sep 2005 09:44:15 -0700 Steve Terry wrote: > "Roxanne McDaniel" wrote in message: > > > Hey Steve, just Google > > "sensory integration" and you'll be amazed. But if I know the type of > > parent you are, you've already done so! > > I have? Oh yes, I will have, very soon, at least before she takes the > college entrance exams. That's when she'll need speed. ND ------------------------------ From: "pookietooth" Subject: Re: What's It Like in Atlantic City? Date: 21 Sep 2005 09:53:14 -0700 Neil X. wrote: > I've never been there, but it was the closest place to New England > where Phil was playing a multi-night set over a weekend, so we ordered > tickets, and off we will go. Are we going to spend a fortune for > accomodations? I sort of imagine the place as being like Vegas with NJ > fith and no Wayne Newton. Is that at all accurate? Will we need our > shots before getting near the place? I hate fleas...... > > Peace, > Neil X. It's like Vegas except that it's dirty, has no natural beauty surrounding it, it smells, there's medical waste on the beaches, people will quicker stab you than say hi to you, it's a vortex of evil, and it's in Jersey. Other than that it's the same. ------------------------------ From: "Pocky Way" Subject: Re: Laurie Anderson??? Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 12:51:44 -0400 "seraphim" wrote... > she'e playing local should I go??? hmmmm.... I'd say yes. But then, as Jer might have said, she's kind of like licorice. ------------------------------ From: "mjd" Subject: Re: No Direction Home DVD Date: 21 Sep 2005 10:00:11 -0700 thanks - I knew that but couldn't remember the drummer(s) who replaced him, so I took the lazy way out. ------------------------------ From: "mjd" Subject: Re: No Direction Home DVD Date: 21 Sep 2005 10:01:29 -0700 that sounds weird - who else would it be? in any event, thanks for the heads-up and testimonial - I can't wait to see this thing. ------------------------------ From: "Everybody's Gonna Be Happy" Subject: Re: Brave New World Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 10:00:10 -0700 "Sherry" wrote in message news:BF56F85C.54D2F%sherry13@together.net... >> HRYK. >> >> What they now call "ADHD" used to be called >> "an adventurous spirit and a curious mind". > > You've met my Tristan. Does he act like a drugged up zombie? Do you > honestly > believe, having see how we live, that my kids have even been not able to > run > around and play and climb trees and so on? One of their favorite things to > do is HIKE! Add in the years of soccer and hockey and cross country- and > not > forget to mention, we mow 3 acres with gas push mowers, and the kids have > been helping do landscape and yard chores since they were big enough to > help. As teens, they grumble a lot about it, but do it because we do. > Believe me when I say it is NOT an environmental problem with my son, > because it is not and has not been. > > I'm right. I KNOW. I LIVE IT! > > Sherry in Vermont Maybe your kid is one of the tiny number of kids who actually do have a medical problem and need to be drugged up so they don't burn down the house. The vast majority of kids being drugged up into nice little robots are drugged so society doesn't have to deal with that dreaded word: individuality. All kids must be exactly alike, so the school and daycare bureacracies can treat them all exactly the same. Its easier and cheaper than dealing with actual humans with their own personalities. This phony illness is caused by adults who have created a vacuous, shallow, incredibly fast paced world for kids to live in. A world in which parents are mostly absent, and expectations are appallingly low. I don't get how literally no one had any of these phony illnesses created by doctors and drug companies when I was a kid, and now most kids are all suddenly "sick", in need of mind altering drugs to function. We used to call them free spirits. EGBH ------------------------------ From: JC Martin Subject: Re: Brave New World Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 17:03:04 GMT Sherry wrote: >>Sad that you truly believe in only the pharmaceutical methods. There >>are other theories and solutions just as workable out there. > > > They did not work for my kid. Sorry you can't seem to understand there's not > a one-size-fits-all approach. I do understand that. Ritalin and any medication used on a child with developing brains should be a last resort...after nutrition, structure, boundaries, exercise, therapy, etc. If none of those solutions work and the child still can't learn or process information, then drugs could be necessary, and even in that case I'd be reluctant. >There are degrees off ADD and ADHD - obviously > yours was/is not as advanced/serious as my son's. Chill out for a sec Sherry. I'm not judging your parenting skills. I'm just responding to what seems like a blanket defense of the pharmaceutical industry, which puts out theoretical propaganda disguised as hard science. It's all over the net. Beyond that, we know more today about mental illness than ever before. Parents are learning that other methods do indeed work. Peas, JC ------------------------------ From: "mjd" Subject: Re: What's It Like in Atlantic City? Date: 21 Sep 2005 10:03:46 -0700 medical waste on beaches was better in the 70s ------------------------------ From: "Everybody's Gonna Be Happy" Subject: Re: Brave New World Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 10:05:28 -0700 "band beyond description" <123@456.com> wrote in message news:3pdd3oF9rt28U1@individual.net... > On 2005-09-21 23:35:03 +0900, "Everybody's Gonna Be Happy" > said: > >> >> "Stephen St." wrote in message >> news:LFdYe.760$G64.463@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com... >>> >>> "Richard Morris" wrote in message >>> news:MqmdnbaiRKQe-KzeRVn-gg@comcast.com... >>> >>>> >>>> Sherry, where are you getting the information about the brain scan as a >>>> diagnostic tool? >>> >>>> The most definitive diagnostic tool is the administration of Ritalin. >>>> If it helps, one has ADD/ADHD. If not, not! >>> >>> I don't have kids, so excuse me for asking a goofy question..but... >>> >>> are you serious about how they diagnose the syndrome? Give the kid a few >>> doses of ritalin and if they react a certain way, they have ADD? Wow, >>> that seems a bit absurd to me. Im sure the pharma companies that make it >>> love that idea, almost like a dealer giving out samples of smack-your >>> bound to get a few people hooked. >>> >>> Sorry if I mis understood your post RM >> >> >> It blows my mind that any parent would seriously consider drugging up >> their kid with some freaky chemical just because some nitwit doctor gets >> kickbacks from some giant drug conglomerate. >> >> Kids are naturally impatient and bouncy. Since most of them have no >> parents around to guide or raise them during most of their day, and since >> the schools they leave them at are often dull and incredibly boring, it >> shouldn't surprise anyone that kids get antsie. >> >> What these antsie kids need is some time with their family and a lot of >> chores to do, followed by some good physical exercise in the fresh air, >> be it a sport or just the freedom to run around and climb trees. >> Challenges, responsibilities, and a place to run around. This is what >> kids are supposed to do, but since most kids today live in cramped cities >> or walled in suburbs they don't have the chance. Throw in hundreds of >> hours on the game machine and in front of the quick cutting television, >> and this is what we get. Raise them as kids and all of a sudden there is >> no such thing as ADD. There wasn't when I was a kid. This is an >> environemtally caused problem, its not in their genes. >> >> I believe that a very small (tiny) number of kids have some chemical >> problem that turns them into the Flash and that may need a medication. >> >> The vast majority are being drugged up and turned into good little robots >> to satisfy society's need to ignore them and leave them to their own >> devices without any guidance or responsibilites or chances to run free. >> Take away the Nintendo and see if they improve. >> >> The parents of those kids are the ones who should be drugged; drugged to >> the point where they can take being a parent and deal with having kids >> who do what kids naturally do when neglected and left unchallenged. >> >> EGBH > > It appears to me, from afar (outside the U.S.), that there's a undue > reliance or at the very least, inclination, to lean toward Ritalin or > other pharmaceutical industry schwag to address "problems" with kids. > Like Toad, I'm extremely skeptical about the need for these drugs to > address a phenomenon (created by/for the pharma industry?) that's iffy at > best. If you look at a typical U.S. magazine aimed at parents, families > or adults in general, it is *LOADED* cover-to-cover with f*&%-ing > pharmaceutical ads (not to mention crap processed-foods), in *complete* > contrast with magazines from other industrialized countries (I'm in Japan) > that may emphasize other products, such as cosmetics, jewelry, cars, > hotels/travel industry; the drug (and crap processed-food) companies > running rampant in American society want you to "want and need" their > products, and in many if not most cases, I frankly don't believe what they > are marketing is necessary. > > This could go on as a tirade against the power of the pharmaceutical (and > crap processed-food) industry, but probably to stay on topic it's more > appropriate be to ask, "are kids over-medicated?" Anecdotally speaking, I > believe it to be true. These days, I think the pharma ads are pushing the > envelope of acceptability, if not crossing over into the realm of outright > dubiousness, for expanding to the general public, via mass media, > advertising campaigns that formerly were restricted to targeting the > medical profession. If rmgd'ers with direct experience in educational or > clinical settings on this issue believe differently, I can respect that (I > specifically refer to the comments in this thread from Roxanne, Richard > and Sherry), but I've formed my opinion based on generally being attuned > to this topic in the media as part of my work, having family in the > medical profession, as well as being a parent myself. It's all the more > asinine when one reads articles about the breakdown of the health > insurance industry in America, wherein a large percentage of people who > don't have insurance, or who are on the fringes with minimal coverage, > can't even acquire the drugs that are being so vociferously pushed to > those who can... Excellent post. Part of the reason why health care costs have exploded in recent years is this immediate resorting to pills to solve every problem. The solution to everything from limp middle aged men to antsie kids is to take a pill. That's all related to the advertising industry, and the need for Americans to see immediate and drastic improvement in every imaginable situation that is viewed as troublesome or requiring effort. Effort and trouble are bad. Pills make the problem go away, at least for now. No more trouble, and with no effort required. Its truly sickening. Hey, now I need a pill! EGBH ------------------------------ From: JC Martin Subject: Re: Brave New World Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 17:05:35 GMT Sherry wrote: >>The media??? *LOL* >> >>You startin' to sound like a Republican. You think you know. But you >>really don't. Pacifying a kid with medication is no miracle. > > > Okay. Upon reading my posts and yours, JC, me actually *knowing* the amount > of research I've done and continue to do, I can come to only one conclusion: > you're an asshole. Okay, I'm an asshole. But since you've taken this to a deeper place ;-), lemme ask you a question. When you put your kid on medication, did you attempt other solutions beforehand? Ya know, exercise, nutrition, setting boundaries, scheduling, etc.? -JC ------------------------------ From: "Everybody's Gonna Be Happy" Subject: Re: Brave New World Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 10:09:48 -0700 "JC Martin" wrote in message news:HWfYe.123$u8.2444@typhoon.sonic.net... > Sherry wrote: >>>individual, specific cases, such as Sherry's experience; I'm just >>>speaking to the wider U.S. phenomenon of debatable drugging/diagnosing >>>of kids who may not need what is being pushed on them by "experts." >>>-- >> >> >> But... you're not hearing what I am saying - what's REALLY happening vs. >> what the media slant of the day is. Ritilan, et al, DO NOT WORK on kids >> who >> haven't got ADD/ADHD!!!! >> >> *********Ritalin, dexedrine, etc are SPEED!********** >> >> If you give ritalin to a "regular" kid, who's just burning off excess >> energy >> like any kid will do, it doesn't even come close to calming them down - >> they >> start racing around 10x as much!!!! Why the hell would ANYONE want that? >> Especially if the reason they are at the doc's for the drugs is because >> the >> kid is off-the-wall hyper? I mean, it does NOT make sense. AT ALL! >> >> However, it's my personal belief that the poisons in the air/food/water >> in >> America contribute to ADHD in the US and UK. >> Interestingly enough, Joe, my Tristan was conceived in Monterey, CA (with >> a >> chance it was during a 3-day Hawaii trip), and born at Ft Ord military >> hospital, during my "most healthy" eating stage, ever > produce and fish... yum> Older and younger 2 were east coast births. What >> am >> I to make of that? ;P >> >> Put into an ridiculously simplified nutshell, ADHD is on the Autism >> scale - >> imagine a line with advanced autism being the extreme far end of it, and >> ADHD on the other extreme. It's very difficult to deal with. People who >> aren't living it 24/7 have NO IDEA what the reality is, and I don't feel >> they have a right to judge us parents. The old "until you walk a mile in >> my >> shoes..." > > > > You discount the *fact* that treatment and diagnosis is still in the > theoretical realm, especially when it comes to long-term usage of drugs > like Ritalin. There's no consistent long-term data out there. I have two > close friends who used Ritalin as children and through high school. Both > were drug addicts as adults and one didn't graduate high school. I always > encourage parents to seek alternative routes first...nutrition, exercise, > therapy, proper parenting techniques (setting strict boundaries), etc. > Your experience is only one experience and as it stands, you're just > mimicking drug company propaganda. > > BTW, my mom refused to put me on Ritalin when I was a kid and I'm thankful > for that despite my ADD issues that I still deal with as an adult. You don't have ADD issues, JC. You are just JC, plain and simple. Some of us have longer attention spans than others. There is no need to place a medical label on it. The crazy, fast paced, irresponsible, immediate gratification filled, lazy, unchallenging, contradictory world we have created for kids is why many of them don't function in it well. From what I recall reading about your past I think its pretty clear your environment contributed to whatever issues you think you have. It sure isn't a medical problem deserving of a label. EGBH ------------------------------ From: "neurodancer" Subject: Re: Pope to ban gay seminarians (NDC) Date: 21 Sep 2005 10:11:53 -0700 band beyond description wrote: > http://tinyurl.com/7p74b > > who's gonna teach rmgd'er kids at Catholic U? Sister Mary Elephant? > -- > Peace, > Steve Doesn't that mean all of them? ND ------------------------------ From: "TNKEV" Subject: Re: heiney!!! Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 12:06:00 -0500 DB wrote: > TNKEV wrote: >> http://www.cigarbid.com/auction/picpost/480888.jpg >> >> LOL! >> >> > > > It's always about beer with you people! What happened to the good old days? > > db HIENEY WAS BETTER IN THE 70'S!!!!! ------------------------------ From: kpnnews@yahoo.com Subject: Re: Brave New World Date: 21 Sep 2005 10:14:24 -0700 Everybody's Gonna Be Happy wrote: > "Stephen St." wrote in message > news:LFdYe.760$G64.463@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com... > > > > "Richard Morris" wrote in message > > news:MqmdnbaiRKQe-KzeRVn-gg@comcast.com... > > > >> > >> Sherry, where are you getting the information about the brain scan as a > >> diagnostic tool? > > > >> The most definitive diagnostic tool is the administration of Ritalin. > >> If it helps, one has ADD/ADHD. If not, not! > > > > I don't have kids, so excuse me for asking a goofy question..but... > > > > are you serious about how they diagnose the syndrome? Give the kid a few > > doses of ritalin and if they react a certain way, they have ADD? Wow, > > that seems a bit absurd to me. Im sure the pharma companies that make it > > love that idea, almost like a dealer giving out samples of smack-your > > bound to get a few people hooked. > > > > Sorry if I mis understood your post RM > > > It blows my mind that any parent would seriously consider drugging up their > kid with some freaky chemical just because some nitwit doctor gets kickbacks > from some giant drug conglomerate. > > Kids are naturally impatient and bouncy. Since most of them have no parents > around to guide or raise them during most of their day, and since the > schools they leave them at are often dull and incredibly boring, it > shouldn't surprise anyone that kids get antsie. My personal history: 3rd grade = detention for acting up almost every day, 4th grade = detention everyday, teacher recommends putting me on medication. Kurt is put in another school with a gifted program for unchallenged kids (me!). That worked for a while, but the academics really sucked. Kurt gets put in a Christian Brothers school in City Park in New Orleans. Kurt is challenged. Kurt is occupied. Kurt excels. In fact, Kurt still gives money to this school. (apologies for the Booie-ishness of this post). I can only look back in hindsight, but the reality was that I simply was bored at school. Certain teachers would have me tutor the other kids, and give me tasks to do. Other teachers had no clue on how to control me. I am not Einstien, but soimething in my personality just made me antsy when I wasn't interested in what was occurring around me. Yes, they did want to drug me back in the early 70's. That being said, there definitely are cases of brain-not-focus chemical imbalances. I simply cannot imagine medicated thought control mechanisms in my head. Kurt PS - My mom *highly* regulated the amount of sugar in my diet. As a kid, it would be like giving me crack cocaine. Out of control is an understatement. Obviously, not all behaviour problems can be traced to sugar intake, but I wonder how many could be given all the soda drinking I see by kids. ------------------------------ From: "Everybody's Gonna Be Happy" Subject: Re: Brave New World Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 10:14:28 -0700 "Sherry" wrote in message news:BF56F6FB.54D2C%sherry13@together.net... >> are you serious about how they diagnose the syndrome? Give the kid a few >> doses of ritalin and if they react a certain way, they have ADD? Wow, >> that >> seems a bit absurd to me. Im sure the pharma companies that make it love > > No, that's not how it was done for us or any other people we know. In our > cases, our kids were *off the wall*, 24/7, and especially if we had other > kids - we going crazy trying to keep our kids from hurting themselves and > others. When my son was not yet 2, he opened his bedroom window (which was > locked, but no lock has ever been able to stop him), climbed out on the > porch roof and was attempting to jump into the tree about 2 feet away from > the edge of the roof. I was in the house nursing Kaz (newborn) when I > thought I heard squirrels on the roof. We fed the squirrels regularly, so > I > went out with some bread and peanuts... and there was Tristan, right on > the > edge of the roof! That's one such episode - there were thousands. He has > NO > impulse control. He thinks it, he does it. NO thought. At ALL. I know it's > normal for 2-yr old to be like this, but Tristan's behavior was over the > top. And as he got older, it got worse - he was able to get into anything > and everything (SMART kid). Finally after he was kicked out of preschool > at > 3.4, we were given a 10-page sheet of questions with a scale of "never > occasionally often always" type thing, that we had to have everyone in > Tristan's life in any way, fill out. Based on those answers and 4 separate > 3-hour evaluations (2 in our home, 1 at preschool, 1 at the doc office), > we > decided to try the ritalin. > > Despite media claims, responsible parents do not just wish to "zombie" > their > kids into good behavior. We tried literally everything we could before > turning to drugs in desperation. I do not know any parents who just leaped > at the chance to drug their kids. > > Even my mother and sisters felt it was "me", and not really a real > problem... up until they took each one of the kids for a week in summer, > starting when they were 5, 2 and 1. When Tristan went to live with my > mother > for a year, her blinders really fell off. It's been my response to those > who > feel he would be different/better/not need drugs if only they and their > wonderful parenting skills were doing the job... to them, I say, when can > he > come to live with you? We'll start packing now. :) > > Sherry in Vermont The vast majority of kids currently drugged up on this zombie creating mind altering drug come nowhere near your description of your kid's behavior. Stand on a roof? Every kid does that, or should if they haven't. Its a rite of passage. Thousands of times? That's such a tiny number of kids, Sherry. Its a total scam, although as I've said, there probably are a tiny number of kids with an actual problem out there. They are the only ones who should be on this drug; unfortunately in some areas MOST kids are. That's absolutely ridiculous, not to mention tragic. EGBH ------------------------------ From: "neurodancer" Subject: Re: Rock and Roll HOF Nominees Announced Date: 21 Sep 2005 10:14:38 -0700 Brad Greer wrote: > On 21 Sep 2005 03:11:24 GMT, Joe wrote: > > >If the Sex Pistols get in, will Sid Vicious be the first murderer to make > >the R&R HOF? > > > >The only other murderer musician I know of is Rick Stevens, from Tower of > >Power. > > > Jim Gordon (drummer for Derek and the Dominos and other bands) killed > his mother, claiming she was channeling evil spirits or something > similar. He's not in the Rock and Roll HOF, though. He should be, along with the rest of the Dominoes. His work on Derek & the Dominoes Live is some of the best rock 'n roll drumming there is, IMHO. ND ------------------------------ From: "Dave Kelly" Subject: Re: Laurie Anderson??? Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 17:15:26 GMT "seraphim" wrote in message news:_C2Ye.7489$cg.475@news02.roc.ny... > she'e playing local should I go??? hmmmm.... > * Absolutely NOT. unless you crave an utterly pretentious ego fueled self congradulating pseudo downtown homosexual mafia driven evening of tortuous slide show psycho babble......is THAT what you consider entertainment? You DISGUST me, sir. ------------------------------ Reply-To: "Schmoe" From: "Schmoe" Crossposted-To: rec.music.phish,rec.music.dylan Subject: Re: HERE is your REVIEW of From the Big Apple to the Big Easy at Radio City Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 13:18:13 -0400 Bigmagnolia wrote: > So I'm walking up 51st street about to enter Radio City and I see a > guy who looks like Andy Hess (Black Crowes, Govt Mule) walking aroung > looking like he's trying to find his way in. I says" Excuse me are you > Andy Hess?" This rail thin man looks at me like he couldn't be > bothered and says that he is. I ask if he is playing with anyone > tonite and he says no. Yeah, it was a real pleasure to meet you too. Good review, appropriately cross-posted and well written. Andy Hess a reluctant star? I think not. Maybe he had a headache. ------------------------------ From: Brad Greer Subject: Re: Owsley on Tapers Back Then Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 13:18:59 -0400 On 20 Sep 2005 06:06:34 -0700, "Olompali4" wrote: >>From some cat named cream_puff_war in the archive reviews for 2/2/70 > >I emailed Owsley, Bear to find out more about circulating tapes missing >moments from the Fillmore West 1970 shows. > >Owsley replied: > >"No the truth is, all the tapes you refer to are bogus- >fakes, as are 90% of all 'rare' shows and virtually all early shows >supposed to be 'soundboards'. >The thing is, the Dead played thousands of shows, and >mostly in halls which sounded a lot alike. They had a >wide but repetitive repertoire, and it is child's play to >assemble virtually any kind of 'set list' from any taper's extensive >and varied collection of tapes. > >If you, personally, did not actually, on your own >machine- record a given show, there is literally no way it can ever be >proven to you to be from any particualar show. Thus all that huge taper >scene is generally of interest only so far as the tape is >listenable, and had zero historic significance- that falls only to the >archival tapes recorded by the band's successive soundmen and kept in >the GD vault. > >Trust me, I NEVER have given any copies of my sonic >journals to anyone and no one else recorded the shows, from my board OR >in the audience- we did in fact from time to time confiscate tapes and >machines. Cassette recorders, especially stereo ones, were very >rare, reel to reel machines bulky, and also expensive- >live taping in the audience simply did not happen back then, however >there are tapes >floating around which even claim to be of shows which >were cancelled and never happened..." > >Quote -unquote... Is Meisner now trying to pass himself off as Owlsley? I suppose the janitor tapes from the Fillmore East don't exist, and all those shows Latvala slipped out (plus the Betty Boards) were fakes as well. ------------------------------ ** FOR YOUR REFERENCE ** The service addresses, to which questions about the list itself and requests to be added to or deleted from it should be directed, are as follows: Internet: dead-flames-request@gdead.berkeley.edu Bitnet: dead-flames-request%gdead.berkeley.edu@ucbcmsa Uucp: ...!{ucbvax,uunet}!gdead.berkeley.edu!dead-flames-request You can send mail to the entire list (and rec.music.gdead) via one of these addresses: Internet: dead-flames@gdead.berkeley.edu Bitnet: dead-flames%gdead.berkeley.edu@ucbcmsa Uucp: ...!{ucbvax,uunet}!gdead.berkeley.edu!dead-flames End of Dead-Flames Digest ****************************** .