From: Digestifier To: Subject: Dead-Flames Digest #354 Dead-Flames Digest #354, Volume #48 Wed, 21 Sep 05 09:00:02 PDT Contents: Re: What's It Like in Atlantic City? (The Lord of Eltingville) Re: Simon Wiesenthal RIP ("Rick Wolfish") Re: Rock and Roll HOF Nominees Announced (JC Martin) Re: Rock and Roll HOF Nominees Announced (JC Martin) Re: issues (ndc) ("Everybody's Gonna Be Happy") Re: Brave New World (JC Martin) Re: The Bush clan are a bunch of criminals! (wyeknot) Re: Brave New World ("Everybody's Gonna Be Happy") Re: NYC advise needed (CC,NDC) (wyeknot) Re: That Starship Galactic Reunion thing (Joe) Re: No Direction Home DVD (Joe) Re: The Bush clan are a bunch of criminals! ("Carlisle") Re: NYC advise needed (CC,NDC) (kpnnews@yahoo.com) Re: The Bush clan are a bunch of criminals! (wyeknot) Re: Brave New World (Sherry) Re: Brave New World (Sherry) Re: Brave New World (band beyond description) Re: Brave New World (Sherry) Re: Brave New World (Joe) Re: Brave New World (Sherry) Re: Rock and Roll HOF Nominees Announced (Joe) Re: Brave New World (band beyond description) Re: NYC advise needed (CC,NDC) ("Greg Sasso") ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: The Lord of Eltingville Subject: Re: What's It Like in Atlantic City? Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 10:10:51 -0400 mjd wrote: > > [...] Leave the fleaspray, take the cannoli... That sounds like a tagline for a Ron Jeremy movie. ------------------------------ From: "Rick Wolfish" Subject: Re: Simon Wiesenthal RIP Date: 21 Sep 2005 07:39:55 -0700 ------------------------------ From: JC Martin Subject: Re: Rock and Roll HOF Nominees Announced Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 14:53:13 GMT Everybody's Gonna Be Happy wrote: > "JC Martin" wrote in message > news:_f3Ye.66$u8.1201@typhoon.sonic.net... > >>Everybody's Gonna Be Happy wrote: > > >>>Stooges: eh. Over rated, but have a shot. I vote No. > > >>The Stooges wipe the floor with the poser Sex Pistols. Shit, the Stooges >>were making punk long before these fools. The Ramones influenced the Sex >>Pistols (through their own admission) and The Stooges influenced the >>Ramones (through THEIR own admission. Let's get to the real shit before >>we start looking at the trendy picks. > > > Lets get to the stuff I like before we get to the stuff I think is "eh". > The Stooges are real and early and all that, but I never particularly cared > for them. I loved the Pistols. > > So there. > > >>>Sir Douglas Quintet: too obscure, not really that good anyway, I vote >>>No. > > >>There would be no Elvis Costello with Doug Sahm. > > > Yeah there would. Elvis copied Doug's vocal delivery. Check it out. -JC ------------------------------ From: JC Martin Subject: Re: Rock and Roll HOF Nominees Announced Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 14:50:57 GMT John Hanson wrote: > "JC Martin" wrote in message > news:_f3Ye.66$u8.1201@typhoon.sonic.net... > >>Everybody's Gonna Be Happy wrote: >> >> >>>Stooges: eh. Over rated, but have a shot. I vote No. >> >> >>The Stooges wipe the floor with the poser Sex Pistols. Shit, the Stooges >>were making punk long before these fools. The Ramones influenced the Sex >>Pistols (through their own admission) and The Stooges influenced the >>Ramones (through THEIR own admission. Let's get to the real shit before >>we start looking at the trendy picks. >> >> > > And the Stooges were influenced by the MC5, through their own admission. > What's that got to do with anything? Steve Jones was one of the best > guitarists of the punk era, Rotten and Matlock wrote terrific songs and > Rotten was one of the greatest front men in history. Iggy and the Dolls and > the Velvets and even the Ramones all had a faint whiff of post-modern > self-consciousness about them; the Pistols were running on pure anger. > Calling the Pistols "posers" takes hipster backlash to absurd extremes. Oh well. They ain't no Stooges and they ain't no Ramones. I'll take both those bands over the Clash as well. Peas, JC ------------------------------ From: "Everybody's Gonna Be Happy" Subject: Re: issues (ndc) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 07:03:53 -0700 "Sherry" wrote in message news:BF564031.54C58%sherry13@together.net... >> China: them owning our debt, building a huge military, making everything >> we >> buy, all while behaving in a manner far worse than Cuba, a country we >> don't >> even allow people to make phone calls to. > Your info is wrong, Toad. Not only do I know several people who call China > every single day, but I've done it myself! We can receive them from there, > too! I called Andre from China in October of 2000, several times. He > called > me back, several times. Reread hon. I was complaining that we let China (a brutal communist dictatorship that threatens our very existence with nuclear weapons) own our debt and sell us literally everything that we buy, but somehow we don't let people make phone calls to Cuba because Castro is such a villain. The double standard is epic. There has been some movement recently; a few relatives can go visit and maybe even make phone calls now. But compared to the kowtowing we do with China, well, the entire situation is absurd. EGBH ------------------------------ From: JC Martin Subject: Re: Brave New World Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 14:56:35 GMT Stephen St. wrote: > "Richard Morris" wrote in message > news:MqmdnbaiRKQe-KzeRVn-gg@comcast.com... > > >>Sherry, where are you getting the information about the brain scan as a >>diagnostic tool? > > >> The most definitive diagnostic tool is the administration of Ritalin. >>If it helps, one has ADD/ADHD. If not, not! There are no brain scans which determine that a kid has ADD or ADHD. Any scanning technology of this sort is merely in the realm of theory. There's no hard science backing it up. -JC ------------------------------ From: wyeknot Subject: Re: The Bush clan are a bunch of criminals! Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 11:14:22 -0400 Joe wrote: > But, hey, you're no longer my Usenet Stalker, so STFU. Would you just leave me alone!!! [sniff, whimper, grabs tissue] Matt ------------------------------ From: "Everybody's Gonna Be Happy" Subject: Re: Brave New World Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 07:35:03 -0700 "Stephen St." wrote in message news:LFdYe.760$G64.463@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com... > > "Richard Morris" wrote in message > news:MqmdnbaiRKQe-KzeRVn-gg@comcast.com... > >> >> Sherry, where are you getting the information about the brain scan as a >> diagnostic tool? > >> The most definitive diagnostic tool is the administration of Ritalin. >> If it helps, one has ADD/ADHD. If not, not! > > I don't have kids, so excuse me for asking a goofy question..but... > > are you serious about how they diagnose the syndrome? Give the kid a few > doses of ritalin and if they react a certain way, they have ADD? Wow, > that seems a bit absurd to me. Im sure the pharma companies that make it > love that idea, almost like a dealer giving out samples of smack-your > bound to get a few people hooked. > > Sorry if I mis understood your post RM It blows my mind that any parent would seriously consider drugging up their kid with some freaky chemical just because some nitwit doctor gets kickbacks from some giant drug conglomerate. Kids are naturally impatient and bouncy. Since most of them have no parents around to guide or raise them during most of their day, and since the schools they leave them at are often dull and incredibly boring, it shouldn't surprise anyone that kids get antsie. What these antsie kids need is some time with their family and a lot of chores to do, followed by some good physical exercise in the fresh air, be it a sport or just the freedom to run around and climb trees. Challenges, responsibilities, and a place to run around. This is what kids are supposed to do, but since most kids today live in cramped cities or walled in suburbs they don't have the chance. Throw in hundreds of hours on the game machine and in front of the quick cutting television, and this is what we get. Raise them as kids and all of a sudden there is no such thing as ADD. There wasn't when I was a kid. This is an environemtally caused problem, its not in their genes. I believe that a very small (tiny) number of kids have some chemical problem that turns them into the Flash and that may need a medication. The vast majority are being drugged up and turned into good little robots to satisfy society's need to ignore them and leave them to their own devices without any guidance or responsibilites or chances to run free. Take away the Nintendo and see if they improve. The parents of those kids are the ones who should be drugged; drugged to the point where they can take being a parent and deal with having kids who do what kids naturally do when neglected and left unchallenged. EGBH ------------------------------ From: wyeknot Subject: Re: NYC advise needed (CC,NDC) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 11:06:40 -0400 Andy Gefen wrote: > There's a new monorail that goes from JFK and connects directly to the > subway system. It's worth checking out. You should also note that it > will cost around $45 to park in Manhattan for the evening or > overnight. Definitely a better deal than driving. Traffic, parking, navigation, etc. can be a pain. Airport train->Subway and the subway goes directly to MSG. "...Monorail, Monorail, Monorail!!! Mono - D'oh!..." Matt ------------------------------ From: Joe Subject: Re: That Starship Galactic Reunion thing Date: 21 Sep 2005 15:16:04 GMT ck wrote: > Anyone seen this configuration ? they're coming to town soon. Marty, > Paul,David.... can they still bring it? Better watch out, Chris Heresy. They do a song - Shadowlands - about the first female serial killer of republicans, and when they sing it, they'll be singing it for you. Joe ------------------------------ From: Joe Subject: Re: No Direction Home DVD Date: 21 Sep 2005 15:24:42 GMT I watched the final credits, and those didn't answer the biggest question I had: Who exactly was in his 1966 backup band that history has told us was "The Hawks" later to become "The Band"? Admittedly, a lot of people's outward appearances changed from the mid-60s to the late-60s, but the only face I could definitely ID was Robbie Robertson. Any ideas who those people are? Joe ------------------------------ From: "Carlisle" Subject: Re: The Bush clan are a bunch of criminals! Date: 21 Sep 2005 08:24:31 -0700 wyeknot wrote: > Joe wrote: > > But, hey, you're no longer my Usenet Stalker, so STFU. > > > Would you just leave me alone!!! [sniff, whimper, grabs tissue] > > > Matt Cheer up, Palmer..you still got me. I will never say, "Off to Abu Gharaib with you!" or call you "Hateful Matt"..It's just not my style. Unless I get pushed into a corner and extremely pissed off, then all bets are off. Check RMP. ;> peace and love, CPC ------------------------------ From: kpnnews@yahoo.com Subject: Re: NYC advise needed (CC,NDC) Date: 21 Sep 2005 08:25:21 -0700 Spider Dawg wrote: > > Thanks for all the info, these are exactly the types of tips I was > hoping for that Orbitz won't tell me about. Another friend mentioned > Subterranean Records in the Village. Allright folks let's start the recommendations: 1) Ollie's Noodle Shop - get some dumplings, some roast duck, and a noodle soup with roast pork, mai fun, and wontons. 2) d.b.a. is probably the best beer bar I have ever visited. They have stuff from around the world that is brewed specifically for this bar: http://www.drinkgoodstuff.com/ny/default.asp 3) Museum of Modern Art: If you are into museums, and you want to see a lot of the big paintings from Renoir, Van Gogh, etc, you should check it out. A visit will take a while, but you can limit it to the paintings. If you are into this type of thing, MoMA is a must-visit. 4) Katz's Deli (reference the "faking it" scene from When Harry Met Sally - it was filmed here FWIW): Carnegie Deli is where the tourists go, and it is good, but this place is more homey. Frickin' Awesome, plus you can get the much discussed Cel-Ray. http://www.katzdeli.com/ C'mon everyone, let's help a brother out. Kurt ------------------------------ From: wyeknot Subject: Re: The Bush clan are a bunch of criminals! Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 11:33:11 -0400 Carlisle wrote: > Cheer up, Palmer..you still got me. > I will never say, "Off to Abu Gharaib with you!" > or call you "Hateful Matt"..It's just not my style. Unless I get pushed > into a corner and extremely pissed off, then all bets are off. Check Stand up and take notice, tell it like it is! Matt ------------------------------ Subject: Re: Brave New World From: Sherry Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 15:39:42 GMT > are you serious about how they diagnose the syndrome? Give the kid a few > doses of ritalin and if they react a certain way, they have ADD? Wow, that > seems a bit absurd to me. Im sure the pharma companies that make it love No, that's not how it was done for us or any other people we know. In our cases, our kids were *off the wall*, 24/7, and especially if we had other kids - we going crazy trying to keep our kids from hurting themselves and others. When my son was not yet 2, he opened his bedroom window (which was locked, but no lock has ever been able to stop him), climbed out on the porch roof and was attempting to jump into the tree about 2 feet away from the edge of the roof. I was in the house nursing Kaz (newborn) when I thought I heard squirrels on the roof. We fed the squirrels regularly, so I went out with some bread and peanuts... and there was Tristan, right on the edge of the roof! That's one such episode - there were thousands. He has NO impulse control. He thinks it, he does it. NO thought. At ALL. I know it's normal for 2-yr old to be like this, but Tristan's behavior was over the top. And as he got older, it got worse - he was able to get into anything and everything (SMART kid). Finally after he was kicked out of preschool at 3.4, we were given a 10-page sheet of questions with a scale of "never occasionally often always" type thing, that we had to have everyone in Tristan's life in any way, fill out. Based on those answers and 4 separate 3-hour evaluations (2 in our home, 1 at preschool, 1 at the doc office), we decided to try the ritalin. Despite media claims, responsible parents do not just wish to "zombie" their kids into good behavior. We tried literally everything we could before turning to drugs in desperation. I do not know any parents who just leaped at the chance to drug their kids. Even my mother and sisters felt it was "me", and not really a real problem... up until they took each one of the kids for a week in summer, starting when they were 5, 2 and 1. When Tristan went to live with my mother for a year, her blinders really fell off. It's been my response to those who feel he would be different/better/not need drugs if only they and their wonderful parenting skills were doing the job... to them, I say, when can he come to live with you? We'll start packing now. :) Sherry in Vermont ------------------------------ Subject: Re: Brave New World From: Sherry Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 15:39:48 GMT > Sherry, where are you getting the information about the brain scan as a > diagnostic tool? > > From what I understand, ADD/ADHD is still more or less classified as a > syndrome--researchers can't point to the exact cause but posit that there is > some underlying neurological origin. It is diagnosed where I work via the > Connor inventory, which asks a variety of people who interact with the > student to evaluate his or her behavior, and developmental and school > achievement information. The most definitive diagnostic tool is the > administration of Ritalin. If it helps, one has ADD/ADHD. If not, not! Landstuhl Army hospital, in 1991. I used to be in touch with a large group of moms with kids having ADHD, and a few adults with it - and different meds helped them, not always ritalin. Ritalin seems to be the first they try, though. My son's neurologist here in Vermont keeps on top of medicines, trials, etc. He's currently using Abilify, which is pretty amazing for him. I do a lot of research, too - I mean, liver damage and so on isn't something we want to cause, so he gets blood tests, etc regularly. Biggest BEST diagnostic tool is how Tristan feels - he has always been part of our discussions. Sherry in Vermont ------------------------------ From: band beyond description <123@456.com> Subject: Re: Brave New World Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 00:38:33 +0900 On 2005-09-21 23:35:03 +0900, "Everybody's Gonna Be Happy" said: > > "Stephen St." wrote in message > news:LFdYe.760$G64.463@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com... >> >> "Richard Morris" wrote in message >> news:MqmdnbaiRKQe-KzeRVn-gg@comcast.com... >> >>> >>> Sherry, where are you getting the information about the brain scan as a >>> diagnostic tool? >> >>> The most definitive diagnostic tool is the administration of Ritalin. >>> If it helps, one has ADD/ADHD. If not, not! >> >> I don't have kids, so excuse me for asking a goofy question..but... >> >> are you serious about how they diagnose the syndrome? Give the kid a >> few doses of ritalin and if they react a certain way, they have ADD? >> Wow, that seems a bit absurd to me. Im sure the pharma companies that >> make it love that idea, almost like a dealer giving out samples of >> smack-your bound to get a few people hooked. >> >> Sorry if I mis understood your post RM > > > It blows my mind that any parent would seriously consider drugging up > their kid with some freaky chemical just because some nitwit doctor > gets kickbacks from some giant drug conglomerate. > > Kids are naturally impatient and bouncy. Since most of them have no > parents around to guide or raise them during most of their day, and > since the schools they leave them at are often dull and incredibly > boring, it shouldn't surprise anyone that kids get antsie. > > What these antsie kids need is some time with their family and a lot of > chores to do, followed by some good physical exercise in the fresh air, > be it a sport or just the freedom to run around and climb trees. > Challenges, responsibilities, and a place to run around. This is what > kids are supposed to do, but since most kids today live in cramped > cities or walled in suburbs they don't have the chance. Throw in > hundreds of hours on the game machine and in front of the quick cutting > television, and this is what we get. Raise them as kids and all of a > sudden there is no such thing as ADD. There wasn't when I was a kid. > This is an environemtally caused problem, its not in their genes. > > I believe that a very small (tiny) number of kids have some chemical > problem that turns them into the Flash and that may need a medication. > > The vast majority are being drugged up and turned into good little > robots to satisfy society's need to ignore them and leave them to their > own devices without any guidance or responsibilites or chances to run > free. Take away the Nintendo and see if they improve. > > The parents of those kids are the ones who should be drugged; drugged > to the point where they can take being a parent and deal with having > kids who do what kids naturally do when neglected and left unchallenged. > > EGBH It appears to me, from afar (outside the U.S.), that there's a undue reliance or at the very least, inclination, to lean toward Ritalin or other pharmaceutical industry schwag to address "problems" with kids. Like Toad, I'm extremely skeptical about the need for these drugs to address a phenomenon (created by/for the pharma industry?) that's iffy at best. If you look at a typical U.S. magazine aimed at parents, families or adults in general, it is *LOADED* cover-to-cover with f*&%-ing pharmaceutical ads (not to mention crap processed-foods), in *complete* contrast with magazines from other industrialized countries (I'm in Japan) that may emphasize other products, such as cosmetics, jewelry, cars, hotels/travel industry; the drug (and crap processed-food) companies running rampant in American society want you to "want and need" their products, and in many if not most cases, I frankly don't believe what they are marketing is necessary. This could go on as a tirade against the power of the pharmaceutical (and crap processed-food) industry, but probably to stay on topic it's more appropriate be to ask, "are kids over-medicated?" Anecdotally speaking, I believe it to be true. These days, I think the pharma ads are pushing the envelope of acceptability, if not crossing over into the realm of outright dubiousness, for expanding to the general public, via mass media, advertising campaigns that formerly were restricted to targeting the medical profession. If rmgd'ers with direct experience in educational or clinical settings on this issue believe differently, I can respect that (I specifically refer to the comments in this thread from Roxanne, Richard and Sherry), but I've formed my opinion based on generally being attuned to this topic in the media as part of my work, having family in the medical profession, as well as being a parent myself. It's all the more asinine when one reads articles about the breakdown of the health insurance industry in America, wherein a large percentage of people who don't have insurance, or who are on the fringes with minimal coverage, can't even acquire the drugs that are being so vociferously pushed to those who can... -- Peace, Steve ------------------------------ Subject: Re: Brave New World From: Sherry Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 15:41:07 GMT > The parents of those kids are the ones who should be drugged; drugged to the > point where they can take being a parent and deal with having kids who do > what kids naturally do when neglected and left unchallenged. Toad, please see my posts before throwing out statement about something you really don't know anything about. I live it. And have for nearly 19 years now. Sherry in Vermont ------------------------------ From: Joe Subject: Re: Brave New World Date: 21 Sep 2005 15:43:12 GMT >Campaigners believe that the increasing use of Ritalin follows >the trend in America where it has been prescribed to children as >young as 15 months. I can see the scenario now: Another American youth is approached by Doctor Mengele-Bush. "Your microchip-papers, please" he barks. As the Evil Doctor inserts the Microchip into his Diebold chip reader, he's shocked to learn that the youth is a threat to society, a terrorist in the making. After all, the youth was fit and trim, an indication that he engaged in the anti-American activity known as physical exercise. Doctor Mengele-Bush thought to himself, "The only good American is an obese, compliant American." As the Evil Doctor scanned the youth's history, he became more and more concerned. Said youth ate organic food, and had never been to Taco Bell. Strike 2, barked the Evil Nazi "Doctor." "Vat else do ve have here?" mused Mengele-Bush. Aha. Here it is; the smoking gun. Said youth gets good grades at school. Clearly, having a brain is anti-American. It's then that the Criminal Fascist Monster decrees: "Make him comply with Fascist society. Drug him. Make him a Little Hitler." And thus, another Ritalin was crammed down the throat of a Future Fascist-Republican. And, all was well in America. Skip forward 20 years, and said youth is the paragon of American virtue: He's in the Army now, spreading McDonald's throughout the world, killing all who stand in the way of Fascist-Republican "Freedom." In his own words, "We have a world to conquer and pollute. Long Live Enforced Drugging. Long Live Doctor Mengele-Bush for setting me straight. Now, excuse me, as I have Genocide to commit." Ain't America Great? Joe ------------------------------ Subject: Re: Brave New World From: Sherry Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 15:45:35 GMT > HRYK. > > What they now call "ADHD" used to be called > "an adventurous spirit and a curious mind". You've met my Tristan. Does he act like a drugged up zombie? Do you honestly believe, having see how we live, that my kids have even been not able to run around and play and climb trees and so on? One of their favorite things to do is HIKE! Add in the years of soccer and hockey and cross country- and not forget to mention, we mow 3 acres with gas push mowers, and the kids have been helping do landscape and yard chores since they were big enough to help. As teens, they grumble a lot about it, but do it because we do. Believe me when I say it is NOT an environmental problem with my son, because it is not and has not been. I'm right. I KNOW. I LIVE IT! Sherry in Vermont ------------------------------ From: Joe Subject: Re: Rock and Roll HOF Nominees Announced Date: 21 Sep 2005 15:48:18 GMT Brad Greer wrote: > Jim Gordon (drummer for Derek and the Dominos and other bands) killed > his mother, claiming she was channeling evil spirits or something > similar. He's not in the Rock and Roll HOF, though. Yow. I didn't know that. So thanks, in a demented sort of way ;-) Joe ------------------------------ From: band beyond description <123@456.com> Subject: Re: Brave New World Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 00:47:17 +0900 and of course I don't mean to disparage or minimize the impact of individual, specific cases, such as Sherry's experience; I'm just speaking to the wider U.S. phenomenon of debatable drugging/diagnosing of kids who may not need what is being pushed on them by "experts." -- Peace, Steve ------------------------------ From: "Greg Sasso" Subject: Re: NYC advise needed (CC,NDC) Date: 21 Sep 2005 08:48:04 -0700 kpnnews@yahoo.com wrote: > Spider Dawg wrote: > > > > Thanks for all the info, these are exactly the types of tips I was > > hoping for that Orbitz won't tell me about. Another friend mentioned > > Subterranean Records in the Village. > > Allright folks let's start the recommendations: > > 1) Ollie's Noodle Shop - get some dumplings, some roast duck, and > a noodle soup with roast pork, mai fun, and wontons. > 2) d.b.a. is probably the best beer bar I have ever visited. They > have stuff from around the world that is brewed specifically > for this bar: http://www.drinkgoodstuff.com/ny/default.asp > 3) Museum of Modern Art: If you are into museums, and you want to > see a lot of the big paintings from Renoir, Van Gogh, etc, > you should check it out. A visit will take a while, but you > can limit it to the paintings. If you are into this type of > thing, MoMA is a must-visit. > 4) Katz's Deli (reference the "faking it" scene from When Harry > Met Sally - it was filmed here FWIW): Carnegie Deli is where > the tourists go, and it is good, but this place is more homey. > Frickin' Awesome, plus you can get the much discussed Cel-Ray. > http://www.katzdeli.com/ > Yes to 1, 2, and 4, but Blind Tiger Ale house on Hudson St is MUCH better than d.b.a. ------------------------------ ** FOR YOUR REFERENCE ** The service addresses, to which questions about the list itself and requests to be added to or deleted from it should be directed, are as follows: Internet: dead-flames-request@gdead.berkeley.edu Bitnet: dead-flames-request%gdead.berkeley.edu@ucbcmsa Uucp: ...!{ucbvax,uunet}!gdead.berkeley.edu!dead-flames-request You can send mail to the entire list (and rec.music.gdead) via one of these addresses: Internet: dead-flames@gdead.berkeley.edu Bitnet: dead-flames%gdead.berkeley.edu@ucbcmsa Uucp: ...!{ucbvax,uunet}!gdead.berkeley.edu!dead-flames End of Dead-Flames Digest ****************************** .