From p.snider@sympatico.ca Sun Apr 8 05:27:07 2001 Received: from mxu1.u.washington.edu (mxu1.u.washington.edu [140.142.32.8]) by lists.u.washington.edu (8.11.2+UW01.01/8.11.2+UW01.03) with ESMTP id f38CR2K72644 for ; Sun, 8 Apr 2001 05:27:02 -0700 Received: from tomts13-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts13.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.34]) by mxu1.u.washington.edu (8.11.2+UW01.01/8.11.2+UW01.03) with ESMTP id f38CR2U22077 for ; Sun, 8 Apr 2001 05:27:02 -0700 Received: from sympatico.ca ([64.228.96.4]) by tomts13-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.4.01.03.16 201-229-121-116-20010115) with ESMTP id <20010408122655.BNED3805.tomts13-srv.bellnexxia.net@sympatico.ca> for ; Sun, 8 Apr 2001 08:26:55 -0400 Message-ID: <3AD0600C.B0857E5C@sympatico.ca> Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 08:56:44 -0400 From: Phillip Snider Reply-To: p.snider@sympatico.ca X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en]C-SYMPA (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en,fr-CA MIME-Version: 1.0 To: classics@u.washington.edu Subject: Re: religious foundations/virgin hero cults References: <000701c0bea1$9e0f7880$c300000a@psicorp.com> <002301c0beb2$e3c57a80$b4cb64a8@jfgannon> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You are right, of course. Antony is rather a better example than Augie. It is interesting though how important text is in Augustine's account though. The story of the encounter of with a Life of Antony ( I think) in the Confessions is striking. Yet, certainly in the early period and, I suspect later, I do think that it is more likely that most conversions were accomplished rather more in the manner of Justin Martyr. Evangelizing even now tends to be a relational process. That is, a non-Christian meets a Christian, they get to talking (and talking and talking usually). The Bible really isn't usually trotted out until the person is at least ready think about becoming a Chrisitan. Bible thumping has found to be distinctly ineffective with people who know nothing about it (it has limited effectiveness with people raised in the Church as well) largely because they cannot accept its presuppositions without some idea of the context in which it is read. I think we forget just how strange a series of books the Bible is, not only now, but also then. There are (and I write about Gentiles here) a lot of things in the Bible that seemed to go dead against common wisdom (as 1 Corinthians 1,20-24 suggests). This suggests that the books of the Bible would look as bizarre to a convert in antiquity as it is to present ones. That is why the most common procedure is that someone helps give the context for what the Scripture is saying. It also explains why conversions direct from the text are rare and even more rarely achieved without some preparing of hte ground. As for apologetics, I know David Lupher is correct in his charactertization of apologetics today. It has degenerated to snappy comebacks, more is the pity (this is from the perspective of an educated Christian, I hasten to add). Some of the problem is our social construction of what apologetics is which is affected by the whole modernist projects, so presumes that the Bible can be wielded as something like objective proof. That is a singularly ineffective approach because (setting aside the problems with objectivity) not everyone accepts the Bible, so its status as an authoritative text is under attack. That in turn means that it is singularly ineffective as a proof text. I would go on, of course, but this is a Classics list and not a theology list. Phil David Lupher wrote: > Phil Snider writes: > > >I don't think I have any really clear examples of pagans becoming Christian > >simply by reading the Bible. The closest I can come is Augustine's "Tolle, > >lege" experience in the confessions. > > But that was a kind of magical (as in sortes Virgilianae, for which see > Conf. 4.3) clinching of a long process aided and abetted by a lot of > non-scriptural "facilitators" (Monica, Ambrose, the Platonists, et al.). > If any single text put Augustine on the path of conversion, it was > the protreptic "Hortensius" by "a guy named Cicero" (cuiusdam Ciceronis, > 3.4). "Ille vero liber mutavit affectum meum et ad te ipsum, domine, > mutavit preces meas et vota ac desideria mea fecit alia." When young > Augie turned to the "scripturae sanctae," on the other hand, he was > turned off---largely, it seems, because they struck him as stylistically > inferior to Cicero (3.4). > > There is, of course, a famous story of conversion precipitated by > an encounter with the NT: the story of St. Antony, who entered a > church, heard the words of Matthew 19:21 ("sell all you have and > give it to the poor...") and actually went out and *did* it. > It is true that Augustine cited this as a model inspiring him > to interpret the child's cry as a command to open the Bible (or > at least, Paul's letters---which is was lying on the garden table). > But that does not make his conversion experience a true analogue > to that of Antony. > > Speaking of Antony, in another story Augustine tells (Conf. 8.6), > two young imperial officials in Trier are converted when they > come upon a book telling the story of Antony. That is, of course, > a story showing how Christian devotional literature could reach > out to outsiders, but it is interesting that the work in question > was not the NT. (Also, I suppose one could say that this is not > necessarily a case of true "conversion." It's not clear that the > young men were not already Christian. What they were specifically > converted to was a life that would reflect Christian teaching more > effectively than their current attempt to become "the Emperor's friends." > In modern parlance, theirs could have been a "born-again" experience." > > It is also worth noting that Justin Martyr, who offered us perhaps our > fullest early account of conversion (lst & 2nd Apologies), was won > over not by direct encounter with the NT, but by conversing with a > mysterious old man on the shore at Ephesus---and, later, by witnessing > the bravery of Christian martyrs. This may be emblematic of a lot > of early conversions: conversations and observed behavior surely > tended to count for more than written texts. > > Perhaps the main role of written texts---both the NT and the apologetic > writings---in the process of conversion was in giving Christians > "ammunition" to use on non-Christian neighbors, relatives, co-workers, > etc. Among NT texts, the Luke/Acts would perhaps have been most > helpful here. As for the more specifically apologetic writings, > I would say that they fulfilled roughly the same function back then > that they do now. If you visit the "Apologetics" section of a > Christian bookstore these days, you will note that virtually everything > there is for *Christians* who need either to bolster their own faith > after attacks from co-workers et al. or to give snappy comebacks to > said co-workers et al. Some series of apologetic pamphlets are quite > explicit about this (e.g. "What to Say to the Mormon at Your Door," etc.). > > David Lupher > Classics Dept. > Univ. of Puget Sound .