From GMOGRADY48@msn.com Thu Nov 1 22:26:16 2001 Received: from mailscan5.cac.washington.edu (mailscan5.cac.washington.edu [140.142.32.14]) by lists.u.washington.edu (8.11.6+UW01.08/8.11.6+UW01.10) with SMTP id fA26QFn82642 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 22:26:15 -0800 Received: FROM mxu3.u.washington.edu BY mailscan5.cac.washington.edu ; Thu Nov 01 22:26:10 2001 -0800 Received: from cpimssmtpu01.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu01.email.msn.com [207.46.181.77]) by mxu3.u.washington.edu (8.11.6+UW01.08/8.11.6+UW01.10) with ESMTP id fA26QA203691 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 22:26:10 -0800 Received: from pavilion ([204.30.43.94]) by cpimssmtpu01.email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.3779); Thu, 1 Nov 2001 22:25:24 -0800 Message-ID: <000e01c16367$41712540$5e2b1ecc@pavilion> From: "GMOGRADY48" To: References: Subject: Re: nits & lice Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 22:26:04 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Nov 2001 06:25:24.0634 (UTC) FILETIME=[27F69FA0:01C16367] I guess I like the Mormons a little more than David does; 1865 in Utah was hardly 1857. Juanita Brooks. who was probably more committed to the heritage of Southern Utah than to the LDS church, gave an excellent account of why the circumstances behind Mountain Mountains were unique to a very limited timeframe. Also, as I recall, the Fancher party was largely from Arkansas and suffered from the recent murder of Mormon apostle Parley Pratt in Arkansas. And one should not deny that the treatment of the Mormons in Missouri (and my home state of Illinois) was one of the worst disgraces in American history. Curiously enough, when the Mormons first heard of the Donner party's fate they assumed that it was LiIlburn Boggs and friends, who had apparently at one point traveled with the Donners, getting their self-inflicted vengeance. ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Lupher" To: Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 7:21 PM Subject: RE: nits & lice > George Pesely wrote: > >I'm willing to believe the "nits make lice" phrase dates back well before > >1864. > > And probably well before 1838, the date I had proposed. > > > > What was the expression Oliver Cromwell used when encouraging his > >men to kill the Irish ca. 1649-1652? Wasn't it something similar? > > Well, he did regard the massacres at Drogheda and Wexford to be "a > righteous judgment of God upon those barbarous wretches," but I am > not aware that he specifically gloated over the killing of civilians > in general or children in particular. > > > >My great-uncle by marriage went by wagon train from Kansas City to Salt > >Lake City in 1865 and stayed some months in the latter city. According to > >a memoir he wrote or dictated about 60 years later, when he attended some > >of the meetings the Mormons held, he would say he was from anywhere but > >Missouri, because if they had known he was from Missouri, his "hide wouldn't > >have been worth shucks." They obviously remembered their ill-treatment; no > >"mE mnEsikakein" for them. > > He was very wise. In the fall of 1857, a wagon train from Missouri, > with a rambunctious complement of men calling themselves the "Missouri > Wild Cats" (at least one of whom is said to have claimed to have been in > the party that assassinated Joseph Smith), was massacred by the Mormons > at Mountain Meadows, near Parowan and Cedar City, Utah. See the > book "Mountain Meadows Massacre" (Univ. of Oklahoma Press, 2nd ed. > 1962) by the courageous Mormon historian Juanita Brooks. In this > book and in her biography of John D. Lee she cited diary entries > of Mormons eager for vengeance against travelers from Missouri and > Illinois. (David Lewis wrote: "My brother Benjamin was killed in > Missouri, and I am alive to avenge his blood when the Lord will." etc.) > > By the way, my earlier posting contained a typo. The Senate report > on the Sand Creek Masscre was pubished in 1867, not 1967. > > David Lupher > Classics Dept. > Univ. of Puget Sound > > > .