From Julilla1@aol.com Sat Apr 14 18:17:02 2001 Received: from mxu4.u.washington.edu (mxu4.u.washington.edu [140.142.33.8]) by lists.u.washington.edu (8.11.2+UW01.01/8.11.2+UW01.03) with ESMTP id f3F1H1997356 for ; Sat, 14 Apr 2001 18:17:01 -0700 Received: from imo-r18.mx.aol.com (imo-r18.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.72]) by mxu4.u.washington.edu (8.11.2+UW01.01/8.11.2+UW01.03) with ESMTP id f3F1H1712486 for ; Sat, 14 Apr 2001 18:17:01 -0700 Received: from Julilla1@aol.com by imo-r18.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v29.14.) id d.24.11ed8000 (26123) for ; Sat, 14 Apr 2001 21:16:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Julilla1@aol.com Message-ID: <24.11ed8000.280a507c@aol.com> Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 21:16:44 EDT Subject: Re: Cicero an OK dad, Augustus not so good To: classics@u.washington.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Mac - Post-GM sub 146 In a message dated 4/14/01 7:23:58 AM, jbutrica@morgan.ucs.mun.ca writes: << BUT his treatment of Julia was truly awful, though I would not say because of the punishment for adultery (which I do not see as trumped up -- precisely because of how it could cast doubts on the legitimacy of Gaius and Lucius) >> I wonder about this. Could it be an Augustan invention her quip about being pregnant by Agrippa before she had affairs precisely because they didn't want to bring up doubts as to the true father of Gaius and Lucius? I don't know about the proposition that she was up to some sort of political shenanigans...but that's only because I can't possibly think of what she would have been striving for. About the only thing I can think of would be trying to get herself a more suitable husband! Maybe someone who actually cared about her? *gasp* >>A woman who is given like this to one man after another, at another's decision, in a transaction of power (she seems to have married probable "successors") is already being prostituted, and by a man who is traying to uphold traditional standards of marital conduct.<< That's what's so awful to me. How could he not have been aware of this? That's what bothers me about him as a father. His wishing that she would have killed herself is just as cold. >>And, after all, Tiberius' treatment of her was far worse -- he allowed her to starve to death.<< It was obviously a helpless humiliation that festered into an outright hatred when he finally had the power to do something about it. Which is why you just don't piss off a Scorpio. They'll remember it forever...;) But his personality problems seem to me a direct result of family trauma as well ("Mummy and daddy are getting a divorce, yes I know she's pregnant and all, but she's marrying Octavian." "What? The guy that tried to kill us a couple of years ago?!" how do you wrap your little brain around that one?), which isn't an excuse, but perhaps an explanation better than a Tacitean one. K O'Ceriann .