From RickyT@drmworld.com Fri May 24 15:56:08 2002 Received: from mailscan4.cac.washington.edu (mailscan4.cac.washington.edu [140.142.33.15]) by lists.u.washington.edu (8.12.1+UW01.12/8.12.1+UW02.01) with SMTP id g4OMu6w3017310 for ; Fri, 24 May 2002 15:56:06 -0700 Received: FROM mxu3.u.washington.edu BY mailscan4.cac.washington.edu ; Fri May 24 15:56:05 2002 -0700 Received: from saltlakeserver.drmworld.com (www.drmworld.com [63.226.96.21]) by mxu3.u.washington.edu (8.12.1+UW01.12/8.12.1+UW02.01) with ESMTP id g4OMu49n007489 for ; Fri, 24 May 2002 15:56:04 -0700 content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: RE: those randy gods MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C20376.1E752F60" Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 16:55:37 -0600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.4712.0 Message-ID: <01FD4CF3A9E0D311839A0050DAB9D8750C4308@saltlakeserver.drmworld.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: From: "Ricky Torrey" To: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C20376.1E752F60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Salvete, Listmembers -=20 =20 A veritable straw man without an asbestos suit, rushing in where angels fear to tread, I have been persuaded by Janice to share my comments on this "provocative" question with this list for discussion purposes. I am only an avocational classicist and quasi-student of mythology and anthropology, and definitely at a distinct disadvantage in communicating with this erudite virtual community. But, if I understand the questioner, I have some thoughts on the student's query, which are at best only partially formed at this point. I would, therefore, be truly interested in any comments from the members of this list, scathing or otherwise. I'll try to set forth my semi-formed arguments coherently. =20 My comments are premised on the notion that, regardless of the qualities of any actual existing divinity, our concepts of those qualities are necessarily colored by our own thought processes, culture and limitations. If this notion offends anyone, I apologize - it is not my intent to challenge anyone's beliefs in inspired scripture, etc., or to indicate any disrespect for those who hold such beliefs. My attempt is not to define the nature of God, but rather to explore evolving human characterizations of divinity, which I think most would agree are part of our collective cultural history.=20 =20 Accepting this premise as a hypothetical starting point, it seems to me that the query at issue arises in the Judeo-Christian context of a distinctly a-sexual God. My thought is that the contrasting images of divinity with regard to sexuality are indicative of a fundamental distinction between monotheism and polytheism. It seems to me that the sexual character of the Greek gods and goddesses, as reflected in Classical mythology to some degree at least, suggests an understanding of the prominent role of sexuality in creation, attributing that creative force to the divine realm, along with other forces in nature generally (myths of parthenogenesis, etc., notwithstanding as exceptions perhaps proving the rule). The roles of both male and female are naturally reflected in that ancient mythological concept, assuming "as above, so below." However, under monotheism, the sexual role in natural creation was irrelevant to divinity, or viewed as a manifestation of the lesser material state of existence, as a relatively logical consequence of the view that there is but One God, who is thus understood to be an a-sexual Being. The fact that God generally adopts the male form in Judeo-Christian tradition would appear to be more a reflection of the patriarchal bent of historical developments than a concession to the sexuality of God, per se, it would seem. Although I understand there are esoteric teachings in which the monotheistic God is represented as somehow both male and female, these largely stand apart from the common tradition.=20 =20 This argument, if viable, might imply some more general connections with the separation or division between the material and "divine" realms that has characterized much of western religious culture under the conquering Judeo-Christian tradition.=20 =20 This analysis may possibly suggest, imply or presuppose that monotheism was imposed upon pre-existing polytheism. I have obliquely seen, I think, hints or suggestions that monotheism may be as old - or perhaps even older - than polytheism, and also that it is perhaps incorrect to ascribe to the Greek gods such powers as "creators" of this world as are familiar to the Judeo-Christian tradition. And I have not seen any recent anthropological scholarship on the question of when the dual role of the sexes in reproduction was first understood, or if, indeed, scholars know for certain whether there was ever any real mystery on that score....No doubt these and/or other elements missing from my analysis may send at least one fatal dart into my Achilles' heel..... =20 Valete! =20 Ricky Torrey =20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: Janice Siegel [mailto:jfsiege@ilstu.edu] Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 12:31 PM To: classics@u.washington.edu Subject: those randy gods Just got an interesting query. I do not know the age of the questioner, (although I suspect it is young) who was sent to my webpages by a teacher to research this question: "What in greek history makes the gods of their mythology so sexual?" The questioner continues..."I think that there must be reasons in greek culture that influence the reality of their gods." A request for reading material follows. It is a very curious choice of wording. =20 I don't recall having any webpages devoted to that topic, so am not quite sure why I am the person to ask. I am tempted to just go the "mythology reflects human experience in its totality, sex is an instinctual life force that often comes into conflict with society's rules, yadda yadda yadda" route. I am currently writing about the Bacchae, can you tell. I suspect the query goes off-base when "history" enters the picture, as if mythology were a reflection of true history instead of the human experience in general. =20 Comments? Something for him (or her, the gender is unknown to me) to read? Please, no Freudian crit. =20 Cheers, Janice Janice Siegel (aka Dr. J) Editor, Survey of Audio-Visual Resources of Classics Assistant Professor of Classics Department of Foreign Languages Box 4300 Illinois State University Normal, Illinois 61790 (309) 438-3583 =20 jfsiege@ilstu.edu http://lilt.ilstu.edu/drjclassics http://lilt.ilstu.edu/drjclassics2 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C20376.1E752F60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Salvete, Listmembers - =
 
A=20 veritable straw man without an asbestos suit, rushing in where angels fear = to tread,=20 I have been persuaded by Janice to share my comments on = this=20 "provocative" question with this list for discussion purposes. I am only = an=20 avocational classicist and quasi-student of mythology and anthropology, = and=20 definitely at a distinct disadvantage in communicating with this erudite = virtual=20 community. But, if I understand the questioner, I have some = thoughts on the=20 student's query, which are at best only partially formed at this point. = I would,=20 therefore, be truly interested in any comments from the members of = this=20 list, scathing or otherwise. I'll try to set forth my semi-formed = arguments=20 coherently.
 
My=20 comments are premised on the notion that, regardless of the qualities of = any=20 actual existing divinity, our concepts of those qualities are = necessarily=20 colored by our own thought processes, culture and limitations. If this = notion=20 offends anyone, I apologize - it is not my intent to challenge anyone's = beliefs=20 in inspired scripture, etc., or to indicate any disrespect for those who = hold=20 such beliefs. My attempt is not to define the nature of God, but rather = to=20 explore evolving human characterizations of divinity, which I think most = would=20 agree are part of our collective cultural history.
 
Accepting this premise as a hypothetical starting point, it = seems to me=20 that the query at issue arises in the Judeo-Christian context of a = distinctly=20 a-sexual God. My thought is that the contrasting images of divinity with = regard=20 to sexuality are indicative of a fundamental distinction between = monotheism and=20 polytheism. It seems to me that the sexual character of the Greek gods = and=20 goddesses, as reflected in Classical mythology to some degree at least, = suggests=20 an understanding of the prominent role of sexuality in creation, = attributing=20 that creative force to the divine realm, along with other forces in = nature=20 generally (myths of parthenogenesis, etc., notwithstanding as exceptions = perhaps=20 proving the rule). The roles of both male and female are naturally = reflected in=20 that ancient mythological concept, assuming "as above, so below." = However, under=20 monotheism, the sexual role in natural creation was irrelevant to = divinity, or=20 viewed as a manifestation of the lesser material state of existence, as = a=20 relatively logical consequence of the view that there is but One = God, who=20 is thus understood to be an a-sexual Being. = The fact that=20 God generally adopts the male form in Judeo-Christian tradition would = appear to=20 be more a reflection of the patriarchal bent of historical developments = than a=20 concession to the sexuality of God, per se, it would seem.=20 Although I understand there are esoteric teachings in = which the=20 monotheistic God is represented as somehow both male and female, these = largely=20 stand apart from the common tradition.
 
This argument, if viable, might imply some more general = connections=20 with the separation or division between the material and "divine" realms = that=20 has characterized much of western religious culture under the conquering = Judeo-Christian tradition.
 
This analysis may possibly suggest, imply or = presuppose that=20 monotheism was imposed upon pre-existing polytheism. I have obliquely = seen, I=20 think, hints or suggestions that monotheism may be as old - or perhaps = even=20 older - than polytheism, and also that it is perhaps incorrect to = ascribe to the=20 Greek gods such powers as "creators" of this world as are familiar to = the=20 Judeo-Christian tradition. And I have not seen any recent = anthropological=20 scholarship on the question of when the dual role of the sexes in = reproduction=20 was first understood, or if, indeed, scholars know for = certain whether=20 there was ever any real mystery on that score....No doubt these and/or = other=20 elements missing from my analysis may send at least one fatal = dart into my=20 Achilles' heel.....
 
Valete!
 
Ricky=20 Torrey
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Janice Siegel=20 [mailto:jfsiege@ilstu.edu]
Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 = 12:31=20 PM
To: classics@u.washington.edu
Subject: those = randy=20 gods

Just got an interesting query. I do = not know the=20 age of the questioner, (although I suspect it is young) who was sent = to my=20 webpages by a teacher to research this question: "What
in greek = history makes the=20 gods of their mythology so sexual?" The questioner=20 continues..."I think that there must be reasons = in=20 greek
culture that influence the reality of their gods." A request = for=20 reading material follows. It is a very curious choice of=20 wording.
 
I don't=20 recall having any webpages devoted to that topic, so am not quite = sure=20 why I am the person to ask. I am tempted to just go the "mythology = reflects=20 human experience in its totality, sex is an instinctual life force = that often=20 comes into conflict with society's rules, yadda yadda yadda" route. I = am=20 currently writing about the Bacchae, can you tell. I suspect the query = goes=20 off-base when "history" enters the picture, as if mythology were a = reflection=20 of true history instead of the human experience in = general.
 
Comments? Something for him (or her, the gender is unknown to me) = to=20 read? Please, no Freudian crit.
 
Cheers, Janice
Janice Siegel (aka Dr. J)
Editor, = Survey of=20 Audio-Visual Resources of Classics
Assistant Professor of=20 Classics
Department of Foreign Languages
Box 4300
Illinois = State=20 University
Normal, Illinois 61790
(309) 438-3583
 
jfsiege@ilstu.edu
http://lilt.ilstu.edu/drjclass= ics
http://lilt.ilstu.edu/drjclas= sics2
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