From jmpfund@bgnet.bgsu.edu Fri Nov 12 11:12:09 1999 Received: from mxu3.u.washington.edu (mxu3.u.washington.edu [140.142.33.7]) by lists.u.washington.edu (8.9.3+UW99.09/8.9.3+UW99.09) with ESMTP id LAA14106 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 11:12:07 -0800 Received: from sp07.notesnet.bgsu.edu (sp07.notesnet.bgsu.edu [129.1.7.7]) by mxu3.u.washington.edu (8.9.3+UW99.09/8.9.3+UW99.08) with ESMTP id LAA23374 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 11:12:07 -0800 Received: from [129.1.87.31] ([129.1.87.31]) by sp07.notesnet.bgsu.edu (Lotus Domino Release 5.0.1a) with ESMTP id 1999111214062885:1058 ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 14:06:28 -0500 X-Sender: jmpfund@popj.bgsu.edu Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.19991111180429.00a75310@uclink4.berkeley.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 To: classics@u.washington.edu From: James Pfundstein Subject: Re: Athena and Artemis X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on MAIL03/SERVER/BGSU(Release 5.0.1a|August 17, 1999) at 11/12/99 02:06:28 PM, Serialize by Router on MAIL03/SERVER/BGSU(Release 5.0.1a|August 17, 1999) at 11/12/99 02:09:48 PM, Serialize complete at 11/12/99 02:09:48 PM Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 14:06:28 -0500 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" A word of caution about attributing narrow and specific social meanings to received cultural phenomena, like gods. These figures were not designed with a single specific rhetorical purpose (like characters in an allegory). Each generation of ancient Greeks worshiped these goddesses (among others) because they had been taught to do so. And different groups, indeed different individuals, within each generation would have had distinct and sometimes contradictory ideas about the goddesses-- what they were like, and why they deserved worship, etc. The gods are *signs*, in short, and semiotics might be a more useful tool than feminism for sorting through the many ideas associated with them. Against your specific suggestion: Athena is at Troy (for instance) to promote conflict, and avenge a personal slight to herself. The control she exerts over the Greeks is directed at achieving her personal end, and she is as willing to make a man more brutish (Ajax, in Sophocles' play) as she is to make him less so (Achilles in *Iliad* 1). This desire to avenge slights and (by extension) to limit human power which seems to be getting out of its station is something which virtually all the major deities have in common; it doesn't seem to be a gender specific role. So your argument can't be supported on evidence associated with the Trojan War myths (it seems to me). But it may be supportable in other contexts. You may need to look, not at THE Athena, but AN Athena-- Athena in the foundations myths of Athens, or other self-contained narrative contexts, and test and refine your hypothesis until it meets the demands of the evidence. And, having carved yourself several images of Athena, you will be in a better position to assess what they have in common (THE Athena) and what they don't, and don't have to, have in common (the various Athenas). JMP At 6:10 PM -0800 11/11/1999, Karen Rodriguez'G wrote: >I have followed your listserv for about a month or so with some >interest. I am a lowly undergrad in need of a few suggestions. I am doing >a paper for an Ancient Greek Religion class on Athena and Artemis...why >goddesses and not gods? Their place in the pantheon seems to me to be >something more appropriate for a male (as to their most dominant roles) >given Greek culture at the time...although I did have a light bulb go off >in my head today regarding Athena...that she might have to be female based >upon the fact that she "domesticates" or focuses, controls the brutish >forces of man/nature/war (Poseidon/Ares, et al.). Is modern feminist >theory appropriate in examining this? Any particular sources you can >suggest regarding this? I already have Sarah Pomeroy's "Goddesses, Wives" >and Kant/Leftkowitz "Women in Ancient Greece/Rome" plus a few different >books from my class including Graves. > >Your help or direction would be most kindly appreciated. > >Karen Rodriguez'G >UC Berkeley .