From GMOGRADY48@email.msn.com Sun Apr 1 12:57:35 2001 Received: from mxu2.u.washington.edu (mxu2.u.washington.edu [140.142.32.9]) by lists.u.washington.edu (8.11.2+UW01.01/8.11.2+UW01.03) with ESMTP id f31JvY248208 for ; Sun, 1 Apr 2001 12:57:34 -0700 Received: from cpimssmtpu04.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu04.email.msn.com [207.46.181.80]) by mxu2.u.washington.edu (8.11.2+UW01.01/8.11.2+UW01.03) with ESMTP id f31JvYM31457 for ; Sun, 1 Apr 2001 12:57:34 -0700 Received: from pavilion ([63.42.74.58]) by cpimssmtpu04.email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.3225); Sun, 1 Apr 2001 12:57:30 -0700 Message-ID: <000801c0bae5$fc460be0$3a4a2a3f@pavilion> From: "Gene O'Grady" To: Subject: Re: Re:questionable Latin in public Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2001 12:57:29 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Apr 2001 19:57:30.0629 (UTC) FILETIME=[FC1B2B50:01C0BAE5] (Citation actually should be Distinctio Quinta, Cap XXI) "Cognoscentes ex confessionibus illorum catholicos cum haereticis esse permixtos, dixerunt Abbati: Quid faciemus, domine? Non possumus discernere inter bonos et malos. Timens tam Abbas quam reliqui, ne tantum timore mortis se catholicos simularent, et post ipsorum abcessum iterum ad perfidiam redirent, fertur dixisse: Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius." My edition (1966 reprint of 1851 Cologne edition) sites the 2 Timothy passage in its meager notes. Pretty clear that someone who knew less Latin than Caesarius retranslated from a quotation. -----Original Message----- From: David Lupher To: classics@u.washington.edu Date: Sunday, April 01, 2001 12:17 PM Subject: Re:questionable Latin in public >David Meadows writes (inter alia): >>... this is someone's 'personal motto' found on a website out there >>somewhere: >> >>'Neca Eos Omnes Deus Suos Agnoscet' > >This has widely been reported as a bumper-sticker, t-shirt logo, etc., >and it appears to generally take this form, but I am curious about >the singular imperative. Surely the good bishop of Citeaux used >the plural as he sent his boys into Beziers that July day in 1209. > >Our source for this is the "Dialogus Miraculorum" (ca. 1225) of >Caearius of Heisterbach, ch. 22. Does anyone have the Latin handy? >The English translation I have indicates that he was speaking to >several people. > >Caesarius, by the way, appears to have recognized that Arnald-Amaury >was alluding to "Paul" at 2.Tim.2.19 (the Vulgate of which was >"cognovit Dominus qui sunt eius"). > >But did he say it? > >Joseph Strayer says "No": "It is not true that the leaders of the >Crusade shouted: 'Kill them all; God will know his own.'" (How >can he prove this negative? Was he there?) - "Albigensian >Crusades," p. 62 > >Jonathan Sumption says "Maybe" and almost "Why not?": "Whether >Arnald-Amaury was consulted, or ever uttered any such sentiment, >remains unclear. But it is not important. The legate reported >the massacre without comment to Innocent III, remarking only that >'neither age, nor sex, nor status had been spared.'" - "The >Albigensian Crusade," p. 93 > >Zoé Oldenbourg says something similar: "Whether Arnald had >sufficient imagination to coin a phrase of this sort, or whether >he in fact never said the words at all, it remains true that the >Crusaders' instructions at the sacking of Beziers do indeed seem >to have been 'Kill them all'--with our without the rider concerning >itself over how God might treat the souls of the victims." >- "Massacre at Montségur," p. 116 - trans. by Peter Green (yes, >*that* Peter Green---back in his Grub Street days---gotta get >some terminal Classical content in there!) > >FWIW, Caesarius was writing not all *that* long after the sack of >Beziers. > >David Lupher >Classics Dept. >Univ. of Puget Sound > > > .