From OCramer@ColoradoCollege.edu Thu Nov 1 08:10:59 2001 Received: from mailscan6.cac.washington.edu (mailscan6.cac.washington.edu [140.142.33.14]) by lists.u.washington.edu (8.11.6+UW01.08/8.11.6+UW01.10) with SMTP id fA1GAwn92062 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 08:10:58 -0800 Received: FROM mxu4.u.washington.edu BY mailscan6.cac.washington.edu ; Thu Nov 01 08:10:57 2001 -0800 Received: from exchange2.ColoradoCollege.edu ([205.170.0.14]) by mxu4.u.washington.edu (8.11.6+UW01.08/8.11.6+UW01.10) with ESMTP id fA1GAv907803 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 08:10:57 -0800 Received: by exchange2.ColoradoCollege.edu with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 09:10:56 -0700 Message-ID: <5E5B5397B92DA849874262D1AF191C2C02489C01@exchange2.ColoradoCollege.edu> From: Owen Cramer To: "'classics@u.washington.edu'" Subject: RE: casualty aversion Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 09:10:56 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" On casualty aversion: Iliad 8.97 "oud' esa/kouse polu/tlas di=os Odusseu/s"--at least averse to constituting himself a casualty after Zeus has given evidence at line 75 that retreat is in order; you could even argue for a kind of self-inclusive triage there--Nestor is in trouble, Diomedes can probably handle it, and Odysseus is on his way back to camp. That this conduct is at variance with a norm is clear from 11.409f: "(os de/ k'aristeu/hsi ma/xhi e/ni, to\n de\ ma/la xrew/ (esta/menai kratero=s, h/ t'e/blht' h/ t'e/bal' a/llon" (esp. this reciprocity at the end: whether he be hit or hit another). On non-combatant immunity, Agamemnon's speech to Menelaos at Il. 6.55ff.: "not even the kouros in his mother's womb should escape" etc.: clearly this is a horrific remark, and suggests that Homer knows a higher standard, but the actual ideal it proclaims, similar the Bp. of Beziers' "Kill them all" without the "God will know his own", seems to be one "normal" Greeks would have accepted. Owen Cramer .