From francois.hinard@paris4.sorbonne.fr Sun Feb 28 12:35:38 1999 Received: from mxu4.u.washington.edu (mxu4.u.washington.edu [140.142.33.8]) by lists.u.washington.edu (8.9.1+UW98.09/8.9.2+UW99.01) with ESMTP id MAA18848 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 12:35:37 -0800 Received: from sorbon.sorbonne.fr (sorbon.sorbonne.fr [195.220.107.3]) by mxu4.u.washington.edu (8.9.3+UW99.02/8.9.3+UW99.01) with ESMTP id MAA21235 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 12:35:36 -0800 Received: from 195.220.120.226 ([195.220.120.214]) by sorbon.sorbonne.fr (8.8.7/jtpda-5.2) with SMTP id VAA17508 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 21:35:34 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <36D9A919.2CE@paris4.sorbonne.fr> Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 13:12:26 +0100 From: Francois Hinard X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 [fr] (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: classics@u.washington.edu Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Fwd: Jews in Rome]] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------7A3954796421" Ce message est en plusieurs parties sous format MIME. --------------7A3954796421 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The answuer from D. Noy Yours -- Recteur Francois HINARD Professeur en Sorbonne RESPVE QVOD NON ES francois.hinard@paris4.sorbonne.fr --------------7A3954796421 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from serv1.is4.u-net.net (serv1.is4.u-net.net [195.102.240.153]) by sorbon.sorbonne.fr (8.8.7/jtpda-5.2) with SMTP id TAA17359 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 19:54:36 +0100 (MET) Received: from noy [194.119.133.233] by serv1.is4.u-net.net with smtp (Exim 1.73 #1) id 10HBLk-0005gH-00; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 18:54:00 +0000 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19990228185053.007ab290@merlin.lamp.ac.uk> X-Sender: sj014@merlin.lamp.ac.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 18:50:53 +0000 To: Francois Hinard From: David Noy Subject: Re: [Fwd: Jews in Rome] In-Reply-To: <36D952B6.A61@paris4.sorbonne.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > In Rome, which of all the cities in the Empire was best equipped >with a professional police force, the coercive force for a >"sweep" of the Jews would likely have been provided by the cohortes >urbanae, backed up if necessary by the praetorians - though the >vigiles would also have been available for this sort of thing, esp. >since they were distributed by regiones and would be familiar with >wherever the Jewish quarter was in the ancient city. But I'm just >speculating; I doubt whether we know exactly how such expulsions were >carried out. > A question of my own for the list - do we know where the *ancient* >Jewish quarter in Rome was? Was there any connection between it and >the medieval ghetto west of Sant'Angelo in Pescheria? >Bill Kerr >UNB Fredericton >Fredericton, NB >Canada > Philo (in the Legatio) says that in Augustus's time the Jews of Rome lived in Trastevere. Contrary to what is sometimes claimed, he doesn't say that they *only* lived in Trastevere, and he also doesn't say that they lived in some sort of ghetto (rather than being mixed in with the other immigrants who also lived in Trastevere). There isn't really any information about what happened later, except that one synagogue seems to have been named after the Campus Martius and another after the Subura, presumably implying that Jews lived in those areas. The synagogue of the Calcaresians may have got its name from a toponym (somewhere near Termini station). It seems most likely that Jews from the 1st century CE onwards lived in various parts of the city, rather than being confined to one particular "quarter". On the expulsion question, we have really got no reliable information about how expulsions of Jews or any other groups worked in practice. The only description I have found before the 4th century is one by Appian (Mac.11.9) of the expulsion of Macedonians in 171 BCE. I should think this is more likely to reflect later expulsions than the one it is ostensibly about: "Consternation mingled with anger followed this action of the Senate, because, on a few hours' notice, so many people were compelled to depart together, who were not even able to find animals in so short a time, nor yet to carry all their goods themselves. Some, in their haste, could not reach a lodging-place, but passed the night in the middle of the roads. Others threw themselves on the ground at the city gates with their wives and children." Even this doesn't say who enforced it. All the documented expulsions seem to have been very short-lived - it was evidently feasible for Jews, astrologers and other expelled groups to return within a few years at most, and it is very unlikely (contra what is claimed by N. Purcell in the new CAH ix, 654-5) that there was enough documentation to make a systematic expulsion bureaucratically feasible. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------- Please forward this to the list if you think it's relevant - I'm going to subscribe myself, as the discussion sounds right up my street, and someone else has already forwarded the expulsion question to me! David Noy --------------7A3954796421-- .