From ptrourke@mediaone.net Sun Dec 24 05:05:00 2000 Received: from mxu1.u.washington.edu (mxu1.u.washington.edu [140.142.32.8]) by lists.u.washington.edu (8.9.3+UW00.05/8.9.3+UW00.12) with ESMTP id FAA27862 for ; Sun, 24 Dec 2000 05:04:59 -0800 Received: from chmls20.mediaone.net (chmls20.mediaone.net [24.147.1.156]) by mxu1.u.washington.edu (8.9.3+UW00.02/8.9.3+UW99.09) with ESMTP id FAA11271 for ; Sun, 24 Dec 2000 05:04:58 -0800 Received: from patricktrourke (h00500480cb85.ne.mediaone.net [24.147.80.93]) by chmls20.mediaone.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA16866 for ; Sun, 24 Dec 2000 08:04:52 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <000c01c06daa$013fcc00$5d509318@ne.mediaone.net> From: "Patrick Tunney Rourke" To: References: <200012240933.BAA20612@list4.u.washington.edu> Subject: Joyce, White, and the name is Euripides (was: Newgrange & "inventive rituals") Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 08:04:09 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 > I wonder if Professor Willett is using an instructional device in > comparatively disparaging an author whom he may indeed feel is elevated > beyond others in error, but probably holds in some regard. His choice in > this case, though, in comparing J with Mary Renault, may be pushing the > envelope. I've only read The King Must Die once, and never intended to > reread it. Since Listmembers have mentioned it occasionally and favorably, I > may do that. Steve ISN'T comparing Joyce to Mary Renault, but to T. H. White, author of *The Once and Future King*. > And can we not enjoy Buck as a wonderful Falstaffian character? Are there > any precursors in ancient Greek literature for either of these two? I am > making my way through all the plays of Aeschylus, Sophocles, and Euripedes, > but haven't identified one yet. Maybe Aristophanes has a fellow? His name is not EuripEdes, it is EuripIdes. I hope that this is a typographical error; as a misspelling, it would be insulting. As for precursors to Buck Mulligan in Greek literature, there was one indeed: Homer's Margites, the man who knew everything, but knew it quite badly. Unfortunately, the Margites is lost. But it is unlikely that the more Falstaffian aspects of Mulligan's character would have been found in Margites: Falstaff is Shakespeare's creation, and Shakespeare's sense of character is something which cannot be matched in any literature, even (incredible to say) the Homer of the Odyssey. At any rate, Mulligan is little more than a dim reflection of Falstaff on the bright, shiny plexiglass surface of Oliver St. John Gogarty. He's the clown brought onstage at the beginning to hook the audience before the real work begins, popping up here and there to serve as a foil to Stephen. Joyce's real genius in *Ulysses* is in Bloom & Stephen, and their interaction. > I find some of his sentences strange to read aloud. Probably the idiom is causing you trouble. If you find the milk lady's sentences most difficult, that is sure to be so: Bill, sir? she said, halting. Well, it's seven mornings a pint at twopence is seven twos is a shilling and twopence over and these three mornings a quart at fourpence is three quarts is a shilling and one and two is two and two, sir. Notice what is happening here. When Haines asks her about her bill, she stops her work; but the "halting" also prepares us for the fluid arithmetic to follow. This is barely readable, but quite speakable. When she finishes, Buck sighs - both in resignation at the knowledge that he's to lose his florin, and in relief that she's ended her maths lesson. That's about as verbal as you're going to get (it's interesting to compare this to the equally verbal bit at *The Waste Land* 139ff., in "A Game of Chess," beginning with "When Lil's husband got demobbed," which is, of course, verse). I think one could also think of this as a nice bit of prose to compare to "Penelope," the famous "Yes" monologue, which represents thought, not speech. A comparison of character as it is found in Shakespeare and as it is found in Aeschylus, Sophocles, Euripides, Aristophanes, and Menander would require a book, at least: and a fat one. Patrick Rourke ptrourke@mediaone.net .