From Sipesprngs@aol.com Sat Sep 2 11:14:19 2000 Received: from mxu3.u.washington.edu (mxu3.u.washington.edu [140.142.33.7]) by lists.u.washington.edu (8.9.3+UW00.05/8.9.3+UW99.09) with ESMTP id LAA143556 for ; Sat, 2 Sep 2000 11:14:18 -0700 From: Sipesprngs@aol.com Received: from imo-r10.mx.aol.com (imo-r10.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.10]) by mxu3.u.washington.edu (8.9.3+UW00.02/8.9.3+UW99.09) with ESMTP id LAA13338 for ; Sat, 2 Sep 2000 11:14:17 -0700 Received: from Sipesprngs@aol.com by imo-r10.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v28.15.) id d.66.71a7504 (3966) for ; Sat, 2 Sep 2000 14:14:12 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <66.71a7504.26e29d73@aol.com> Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 14:14:11 EDT Subject: Re: "Doch" auf Deutsch (es war: RE: internet tla's) To: classics@u.washington.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 120 In a message dated 9/2/00 9:32:30 AM Central Daylight Time, uhschmit@phil.uni-erlangen.de writes: While > growing up in Nuremberg, I (along with all of my young friends) was > bilingual: I spoke Hochdeutsch at the Gymnasium and in polite > company and I spoke "Nurembergerisch" everywhere else, often to the > dismay of my mother. The two languages were totally different. The accuracy of this statement seems remarkable to me for a number of reasons. In the first place, of course, many people who grew up in other parts of Europe could say pretty much the same thing, almost anywhere in central Europe, but more strikingly along the Rhine, and then also in England, probably elsewhere as well. But then there is the additional fact that I am probably of the generation of Ulrich's mother, so that my own contemporaries did not seem to enjoy his positive, perhaps even sentimental attachment to native speech. As an American proud of my own regionalisms and curious about the European situation, I many times made inquiries which evoked the uncomfortable response, "Naturally we always spoke High German at home." I have the impression that this diffidence arose from the autochthonist excesses of the early 20th century, and that one of its effects was the stilted academic style which displaced the wonderful scholarly prose at the turn of century. And at this point I suppose I have in mind all the European languages, not just German. Best, J.W. Worthy Sipe Springs, Texas << > CRR writes: > > >Or when you yourself suddenly bring something to mind (a name, for > >example) in a conversation, and in many other comparable contexts. > >Indeed, I recall the German "doch" being a quite handy little part of > >speech in the years I lived in Frankfurt. That was many years ago, > >however, so my vague memory may be quite in error in regard to my > >next observation (since I was never involved in one of those > >"interminable 'tis ... 'tain't disputations". Right or wrong, > >however, I seem to recall that "doch" was only used in an affirmative > >context (one of confirmation, for example). Which is to say that it > >was NOT used an exclamatory vocalization for refutation or negation, > >etc. (where instead something like "Gar nichts..." might be > >employed). hm, it is difficult (Reiner may correct me from his point of view). "doch" can mean: "yes, I agree" ("habe ich recht?" - "doch, du hast recht", or more often: "habe ich nicht recht?" - "doch, du hast recht."), but more often it means "on the contrary" ("du hast nicht recht" - "doch ich habe recht"), and then it is a kind of "flickwort, fuellsel", the meaning depending on whether you stress it or not: "ich gehe doch in die schule" ist not the same as "ich gehe _doch_ in die schule"; the latter having the connotation of "despite all the difficulties", whereas in the first case "doch" comes near the Franconian "fei" > I can't clear the matter up, but I can add another facet. While > growing up in Nuremberg, I (along with all of my young friends) was > bilingual: I spoke Hochdeutsch at the Gymnasium and in polite > company, and I spoke "Nurembergerisch" everywhere else, often to the > dismay of my mother. The two languages were totally different, and the > latter included a word whose use and meaning (much like those of > "doch") are most difficult to pin down. The word in question is "fei". > "Fei" could be used for both positive and negative emphasis; in fact, > it could be inserted into virtually any context with virtually any > connotation. Indeed, "fei" would be used by a Nuremberger anytime one > of those "Prussians" (i.e., anyone who had the misfortune of living > north of the Main river) would use "doch". > > I suspect that "fei" (along with much of what used to be pure > "Nurembergerisch") disappeared from the language with the advent of > television and its tendency to effect linguistic "Gleichschaltung", > but would be interested to hear Ulrich's and Reiner's comments on the > subject. No no - the Nuernberger "fei" (which is indeed common in most of Franconia) will never die ("des is fei woar"). And for all those who can't imagine how this may be pronounced, there is a rather bizarre WWW-Site at: http://www.br-online.de/franken/fr_sprache/english/index.html or better: http://www.br- online.de/franken/fr_sprache/english/index.html#wander Don't try to understand the English words, they are without sense, they just are a vehicle for the Franconian way of pronouncing - and for the more advanced experts of Franconian, I recommend: http://www.br-online.de/franken/gschmarri/glossen/index.html U.S. > > Ted Brunner > > P.S.: I know Ulrich lives in Erlangen, but if you live north of the > Main, Reiner, please don't be offended.... ;-) > > > > > > > > > > > |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| > Theodore F. Brunner > 28802 Top of the World Drive > Laguna Beach, CA 92651 > Phone (949) 494-8861 > |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| > > >> .