From owner-biophys@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Sun Jun 3 22:36:25 2001 Return-Path: Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3414A17AD4 for ; Sun, 3 Jun 2001 22:36:24 +0100 (BST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4ABF917AB4 for ; Sun, 3 Jun 2001 22:36:22 +0100 (BST) Received: from niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (niobium [193.62.192.41]) by mercury.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA91D17AD4 for ; Sun, 3 Jun 2001 22:36:18 +0100 (BST) Received: (from news@localhost) by niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk (8.9.3+Sun/8.8.8) id WAA05042 for biophys-list@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk; Sun, 3 Jun 2001 22:33:32 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: niobium.hgmp.mrc.ac.uk: news set sender to using -f From: "Stewart A. Harris" X-Newsgroups: alt.sci.natural.phenomena.unusual,bionet.biophysics,sci.bio.paleontology,sci.geo.geology,sci.physics,talk.atheism,alt.sci.physics,alt.agnosticism,alt.talk.creationism Subject: Re: The "Science" of John Boatwright Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 21:37:49 GMT Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: Reply-To: tomitire@lvcm.com References: <3ae7e476_2@news01.one.net.au> <3AE81A39.DCB403E7@mediaone.net> <3AE84A63.91AF7B61@ozone.ch> <3AE879D7.DE3494E1@mediaone.net> <3ae8b06a.109420557@nntp.we.mediaone.net> <3AE8B9E2.A73DB51B@mediaone.net> <1127_988344536@GANDALF> <3AE9B280.8406B3B2@mediaone.net> <3AEADE18.6CDCEC04@mediaone.net> <3AEB1938.15673102@mediaone.net> X-Newsreader: News Rover 6.2.1 (http://www.NewsRover.com) X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 82 To: biophys@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Sender: owner-biophys@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk Precedence: bulk On 28-Apr-2001, Joe Galenko wrote: > > [Hammond] > > I said "the Universe as we know it would cease > > to > > exist". My answer is true "by definition", > > since if > > all men were dead, there would be no one to > > "know it". > > > > [Hammond] > > If the Universe "as we know it" only exists > > because Man is > > alive to "know it", then ergo, the Universe > > "as we know it" > > came into existence when Man came into > > existence. > > But what do you mean by "we?" If all humans > died tomorrow you're saying > that the Universe as "we" (humans) know it would > cease to exist. But how > about everything else in the Universe? The > Universe would still exist as > "they" know it. Why is that different? Or, if > that is different, then > strictly speaking the Universe as "you" know it > and the Universe as > "I" know it are different becasue we can't KNOW > that "you" and "I" are > experiencing the exact same thing, in which case > the statement "the > Universe as 'we' know it" makes no sense...there > is no Universe as > "we" know it. > > Or how about this angle...if all humans on Earth > died instantly, why would > the Univese as "we" know it cease to > exist?...the Universe as "we" know it > would still exist, but it's just that "we" would > no longer be around to > experience it. "We" wouldn't know it (ie, > experience it) at that time > after "we" died, but we know IT (the Universe) > right now, and IT (the > Universe) would still be here after we all died > (assuming the only thing > that changed was the we had all died). The only > way that it would be > different is that all the humans on Earth would > be dead, but then again > the Universe is ALWAYS changing (be it from all > the humans on Earth > suddenly dying or something else) and so in a > strict sense, the Universe > as "we" know it right now will NEVER be the same > Universe "we" will know > one second from right now. > > You're basically DEFINING it from the start that > a Universe CAN'T exist > unless "we" (which is seemingly defined as at > least one human being on the > planet Earth) also exist. If we accept your > definition then your > conclusion of when the Universe exists and > doesn't exist is valid, but > accepting your definition in the first place is > arbitrary. Science and all its definitions begin with 'observable phenomena.'' Dead people, nonexistent people do not 'obsereve anything.' tomitire http://members.home.net/lordsimba2 .