--- Log opened Mon Sep 26 00:00:11 2005
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01:44:05-!- Topic for #fink: Have a question? Check the FAQ: http://fink.sf.net/faq || Latest Installers: 0.6.4 (10.2), 0.7.2 (10.3), 0.8.0 (10.4) || Fink 0.24.10: Cameloparadalis
01:44:05-!- Topic set by akh [] [Thu Aug 25 10:00:59 2005]
01:44:05[Users #fink]
01:44:05[ Airo     ] [ das_    ] [ gzl         ] [ mcp     ] [ pogma     ] [ shres   ] 
01:44:05[ BleedAway] [ eno-away] [ htodd       ] [ mdmonk  ] [ RangerAway] [ sid77   ] 
01:44:05[ brendan  ] [ Erik____] [ jack-       ] [ megahal ] [ RLD_osx   ] [ spundun ] 
01:44:05[ cirdan   ] [ gecko2  ] [ JosephSpiros] [ Melian  ] [ rpop      ] [ swix_   ] 
01:44:05[ Clef     ] [ gopherd ] [ KraMer      ] [ newmanbe] [ rudy      ] [ usataway] 
01:44:05[ cls      ] [ gopherd_] [ lisppaste   ] [ pnorman ] [ runelind  ] [ zorton  ] 
01:44:05-!- Irssi: #fink: Total of 36 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 36 normal]
01:44:06-!- Channel #fink created Sun Aug  3 17:57:20 2003
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05:26:55< muesli> hey guys
05:27:05< muesli> i got a little problem with a fink selfupdate (cvs)
05:27:19< muesli> it aborts with: "can't create temporary directory /tmp/cvs-serv...."
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05:49:47< imajes> anyone around?
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06:10:31-!- Topic for #fink: Have a question? Check the FAQ: http://fink.sf.net/faq || Latest Installers: 0.6.4 (10.2), 0.7.2 (10.3), 0.8.0 (10.4) || Fink 0.24.10: Cameloparadalis
06:10:31-!- Topic set by akh [] [Thu Aug 25 10:00:59 2005]
06:10:31[Users #fink]
06:10:31[ Airo     ] [ das_    ] [ htodd       ] [ mcp     ] [ pogma     ] [ shres   ] 
06:10:31[ BleedAway] [ eno-away] [ imajes      ] [ mdmonk  ] [ RangerAway] [ sid77   ] 
06:10:31[ brendan  ] [ Erik____] [ jack-       ] [ Melian  ] [ RLD_osx   ] [ spundun ] 
06:10:31[ cirdan   ] [ gecko2  ] [ JosephSpiros] [ muesli  ] [ rpop      ] [ swix_   ] 
06:10:31[ Clef     ] [ gopherd ] [ KraMer      ] [ newmanbe] [ rudy      ] [ usataway] 
06:10:31[ cls      ] [ gzl     ] [ lisppaste   ] [ pnorman ] [ runelind  ] [ zorton  ] 
06:10:31-!- Irssi: #fink: Total of 36 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 36 normal]
06:10:32-!- Channel #fink created Sun Aug  3 17:57:20 2003
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07:25:34< cirdan> morning
07:25:36-!- asari [n=chatzill@p2162-ipbf604marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #Fink
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07:29:05< newmanbe> Melian!
07:30:37< cirdan> ...
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07:54:00< imajes> hi
07:54:11< imajes> having problems setting up a package... compile failures
07:54:23< imajes> anyone best to talk to?
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09:38:40< dmacks> !lart imake/xmkmf
09:38:41 * Melian explains, ever so gently, that if imake/xmkmf doesn't give the channel more information, they can't help
09:39:03< akh> ewww:  xmkmf
09:39:34< dmacks> akh: Yeah...that's the root of the xpaint problem on -users.
09:39:41< akh> ah.  Yucky
09:40:19< dmacks> Different x11 providers have slightly different [something, dunno what], each requiring a different hack to get the thing built.
09:40:51< akh> Yeah--I've noticed that behavior.
09:41:15 * dmacks thinks there's a new version, may just try to write my own Makefile.
09:41:40< akh> Nice. 
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09:41:51< dmacks> !logs
09:42:05< dmacks> !unstable
09:42:43< dmacks> cirdan: Da bot's hung, no?
09:43:39< akh> Thought the bot was female.  ;-)
09:43:59< dmacks> ?
09:44:04< dmacks> Oh. ha!
09:44:06< muesli> hey guys, i got a little problem with a fink selfupdate (cvs)
09:44:07< muesli> it aborts with: "can't create temporary directory /tmp/cvs-serv...."
09:44:12 * dmacks hasn't had coffee yet:(
09:44:15< muesli> directly after it starts the cvs up command
09:44:57< dmacks> muesli: please lisppaste the complete output (this is very likely a SF error)
09:44:59< dmacks> lisppaste: help
09:45:00< lisppaste> To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/fink and enter your paste.
09:45:30 * akh tries the 10.4-trans epiphany on 10.3 for _that_ thread.
09:46:01< dmacks> heh. I'm so not looking forward to the epiphany/nautilus/evolution upgrades.
09:46:05< akh> Unless somebody with 10.3 can beat me to it--I'm going to have to compile mozilla.
09:46:23 * dmacks has .deb for 10.3/unstable mozilla....
09:46:24< akh> dmacks:  Yeah--though evo 2 would be nice.
09:47:12< cirdan> Melian: unstable
09:47:24< dmacks> Yes cirdan, yes she is...
09:47:39< cirdan> cause i ran apt-get upgrade...
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09:49:17< dmacks> She's workin' now.
09:49:29< cirdan> yup
09:49:32< muesli> dmacks: oh, forgot one line anyways: "Too many links"
09:51:35< dmacks> Also need to know if you're using anon-cvs or password/ssh
09:51:55< cirdan> chris@lorien:~/src/blootbot$ cvs -z9 up -dP
09:51:55< cirdan> can't create temporary directory /tmp/cvs-serv28484
09:51:55< cirdan> Too many links
09:51:58< cirdan> :-(
09:52:03< cirdan> even on my linux box
09:52:25< dmacks> This may sound shocking, but cvs.sf appears broken.
09:52:30< akh> OMG!
09:52:35< cirdan> *shocked*
09:52:56< muesli> dmacks: this sounds like business as usual then. did sf's cvs ever work, actually? ;-)
09:53:00 * cirdan wonders who linked /tmp ->/tmp
09:53:06< cirdan> :-)
09:53:37< dmacks> muesli: heh:) At any given time, up to [some fraction] of it works at least partially.
09:54:07< dmacks> Dozens of reports on SF Support tracker.
09:54:31 * akh doesn't _think_ that I broke it--my commits last night were pretty straighforward. ;-)
09:54:48< dmacks> broken (in this manner) since friday
09:55:08< pogma> I think sf is on acific time, so they'll probably get to it soon :)
09:55:17< pogma> pacific time
09:55:31< pogma> maybe pathetic time, hmm
09:55:43 * dmacks read as "acidic time"
09:55:58 * akh read "assific time"
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09:56:06< dmacks> heh
09:56:51 * asari thougut "acidic time" as rough time
09:56:57< asari> hi all
09:57:00< pogma> sometimes typos are better than the original
09:57:02< pogma> hi asari 
09:57:03< dmacks> hi asari!
09:57:03< akh> hi asari
09:57:08< cirdan> asari!
09:57:21< asari> akh: thanks for your report about OOo!
09:57:49< akh> asari:  No problem.
09:59:10< akh> The more feedback that people give, the better the package will be, which leads to fewer complaints.
09:59:13< akh> Everybody wins!
09:59:34< cirdan> exacpt for the constant rebuilds :-p
09:59:54< akh> Yeah, but come winter I can use the waste heat to save on my oil bill ;-)
10:00:03< asari> our G5 works full time
10:00:14< dmacks> akh: Don't forget ChangeLogs:)
10:00:30< akh> dmacks:  Oh, yeah.
10:00:44< akh> Don't want to do that.
10:03:06< dmacks> asari: In your freeciv package, you use --with-ft-prefix=%p/lib/freetype219, so you need dependencies on freetype219/freetype219-shlibs
10:03:21< asari> ah, forgot!?
10:03:40< cirdan> !aussiesmite asari 
10:04:03< dmacks> Aussiesmite?
10:04:20< asari> Gee...  I don't know what aussiesmite means...
10:04:22< cirdan> ah
10:04:27< cirdan> !djbsmite asari 
10:04:28 * Melian changes asari's licence.
10:04:36< dmacks> (neither does Melian:)
10:04:43< cirdan> thought i added that one :-)
10:05:14< asari> ?? am I now GPL'ed??
10:05:30< akh> Nah, you're Restrictive. ;-)
10:05:31< cirdan> MS EULA
10:05:33< cirdan> :-p
10:05:36< akh> lol
10:05:41< dmacks> hah
10:08:13-!- imajes [n=james@growl/imajes] has joined #fink
10:12:05 * akh has been mucking around in branch_0_24.  phear!
10:12:21-!- rand [n=admin@216.129.208.116] has joined #fink
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10:13:26< rand-irc> morning all
10:13:31< akh> Good morning
10:14:12< dmacks> hallo!
10:15:02< rand-irc> =)
10:15:07< rand-irc> brb, work again
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10:15:28< pogma> my gosh! rand is not dead!
10:16:50< akh> His client is (probably momentarily), though. ;-)
10:17:44< akh> (oops--missed the last line)
10:24:36-!- TheMystic [n=kbullock@x84-64-172-dhcp.che.umn.edu] has joined #fink
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10:29:12< pogma> rand-irc: where have you been? wb!
10:29:16< rand-irc> ta
10:29:27< rand-irc> life thingys
10:29:40< rand-irc> and wow hasn't helped, free time has been spent there recently
10:29:41< pogma> hope all is well
10:29:45< rand-irc> yeah
10:30:07< rand-irc> place where server is hosted kept screwing me over, giving my ip to other machines, nt telling me etc
10:30:13< dmacks> yuck
10:30:22< rand-irc> parents came over and stayed for a month and a half
10:30:27< rand-irc> toured around canada with them
10:30:28< cirdan> wow
10:30:52< rand-irc> getting all the schools networks/servers/clietns up and running before start of school
10:30:56< rand-irc> so it's just been busy :)
10:31:04< dmacks> I can see how that all would interfere with IRCing...
10:31:05< Gardner> And that was just yesterday, right? ;-)
10:31:09< rand-irc> lol
10:31:11< rand-irc> yeah
10:31:18< rand-irc> and today, i'm taking over the world
10:31:19< rand-irc> :)
10:31:26< dmacks> *narf*
10:31:41< rand-irc> so pinky, are you thinking what i'm thinking
10:32:13< rand-irc> so how's fink been the last few months?
10:33:50< TheMystic> is the ruby pkg maintainer around? (Michal Suchanek)
10:33:53< dmacks> same as usual I guess?
10:33:54< akh> We're going to try to get 1.0 out before Apple releases 10.4.3. ;-)
10:34:08< akh> (not really--but maybe 0.25.x)
10:34:08< rudy> akh: never happen
10:34:15< akh> rudy:  which?
10:35:03< dmacks> TheMystic: around #fink? I don't think he ever comes here. Alive at all? I think he lies low for a while, then has a burst of activity.
10:35:15< rudy> 1.0 before 10.4.3
10:35:36< TheMystic> dmacks: hehe
10:35:37< pogma> 1.0 is a goal that fink wll aim at for eternity
10:35:47< akh> 1.0 is asymptotic ;-)
10:36:02< akh> OTOH, 10.4.3 seems to be taking its sweet time.
10:36:13< akh> It's the battle of the infinities.
10:36:31< TheMystic> i just found myself wondering why ruby18 is at 1.8.1 when 1.8.2 was released in december, and pondering rolling my own
10:36:44< pogma> akh: I seem to recall you having similar issues with the release of 10.4.2
10:36:52< dmacks> TheMystic: you emailed the maintainer?
10:37:00< TheMystic> dmacks: not yet :)
10:37:22< pogma> akh: perhaps if you stopped looking at the seeds (like me) you'd not notice the time it takes :)
10:37:30< dmacks> Unless a maintainer doesn't respond, he's assumed to have control over his packages.
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10:38:10< akh> "doesn't respond for a month"
10:38:15< dmacks> Ayup
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10:38:40< akh> If a maintainer doesn't respond for a day they're probably just hung over. ;-)
10:38:45< rand-irc> heh
10:39:02< dmacks> *a* day?
10:40:32< pogma> it usually takes me 3 emails to respond
10:40:45< rand-irc> so spam is good?
10:40:51< rand-irc> :)
10:41:40< akh> dmacks:  that _was_ a bit of an underestimate, wasn't it?
10:42:17< imajes> anyone tried installing kcachegrind with fink?
10:42:32< dmacks> heh yeah, akh:)
10:43:24-!- hennker [n=flullup@0-011.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #fink
10:44:10< rand-irc> um, pogma
10:44:27< rand-irc> you haven't updated your web 'blog' for, well since before i left :)
10:45:05< akh> hmmm...I seem to be having systematic problems with installs now.
10:46:17< pogma> rand-irc: news this year - I gave up on doing a blog. :)
10:46:25< dmacks> hehe
10:46:30< rand-irc> hehe
10:46:35< rand-irc> put that up there for me :)
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10:52:56< akh> hmm...wonder what's the deal with install and cp here--it's not every package, as I thought.
10:53:37< rand-irc> brb
10:53:41< rand-irc> lunch time :)
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11:02:25< asari> dmacks: my freeciv binaries actually don't link to freetype219. info file has a line like --with-ft-prefix=%p/lib/freetype219, but this option doesn't work when --enable-client=gtk-2.0 is set.
11:02:47< asari> I think this is a kind of typo..
11:03:30< dmacks> Okay. I did not try freeciv. I read the .info and thought "that looks inconsistent".
11:05:19< asari> Should I update info with revision up?
11:05:37< dmacks> If you change Depends, you should rev-up.
11:05:56< asari> no change on depends.
11:06:41< dmacks> If [what you change] will not affect the compiled binary, you do not need to rev-up.
11:08:33-!- drm [n=drm@dhcp64-134-141-184.oak.sjc.wayport.net] has joined #fink
11:09:00< drm> RangerAway...hmm, bet you are not there :/
11:09:15< dmacks> He's there, he's just not here.
11:10:08< drm> it was once famously said about the place i am now: "there's no there there"
11:12:25< akh> heh
11:13:01< drm> (gertrude stein, speaking about oakland)
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11:32:19< asari> okay..  done. thanks, dmacks!
11:32:44< dmacks> Thanks for maintaining it:)
11:33:45< asari> :)
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11:37:50< dmacks> So many rand*, so little time...
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11:47:24< rand> heh
11:47:26< rand> heh
11:47:30< rand> only one of us
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11:51:45< Murr> hey rand
11:52:00< Murr> do you also get spurious error messages when you log in these days?
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11:57:37< rand-irc> nope
11:57:41< rand-irc> what sort of error?
11:59:10< rand-irc> sorry, semi afirc, working :)
11:59:20< rand-irc> "working"
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12:09:03< rand-irc> anyone know any good snmp clients for osx?
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12:47:06< rand-irc> http://www.ireasoning.com/mibbrowser.shtml seems to work, for those interested :)_
12:53:20< gecko2> whats up with the anoncvs?
12:53:22< gecko2> can't create temporary directory /tmp/cvs-serv16685
12:53:22< gecko2> Too many links
12:54:08< asari> gecko2: here, me either.
12:54:57< dmacks> gecko2: SF bug. Feel free to report it on *their* tracker.
12:56:35< dmacks> Although since it doesn't interfere with project statistics, SF's apparent primary purpose, I doubt they'll care?
12:58:51-!- RangerAway is now known as RangerRick
12:59:05< rand-irc> it's alive
12:59:06< rand-irc> lo rr
13:02:02< RangerRick> howdy
13:02:05< RangerRick> me was in vegas  :)
13:02:09< RangerRick> er
13:02:12 * RangerRick was in vegas  :)
13:02:15< RangerRick> up $90
13:02:42< RangerRick> gonna grab lunch, I'll be back in a few
13:03:08< rand-irc> hah, blowing it on lunch  :)
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13:23:18< Murr> wwhy is links incompatible with openssl?
13:26:30< rand-irc> really?
13:26:41< rand-irc> you would think it wouldn't be after all this time
13:27:30< Murr> well, actually it's openssl-dev
13:27:30< Murr> but anyway
13:28:20< rand-irc> :)
13:28:25< rand-irc> how have you been murr?
13:28:40-!- asari [n=chatzill@p2162-ipbf604marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has left #Fink []
13:28:54< Murr> away
13:28:57< Murr> in Switzerland
13:29:53< rand-irc> sweet
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13:30:26< RangerRick> Murr: it's probably conflicting because it's been changed to build against the system-openssl
13:30:37< RangerRick> although it should be possible to change the build so you don't have to remove openssl-dev  :P
13:31:09< Murr> yes, that's what I would have expected
13:31:14< Murr> oh well, whatever
13:35:51 * gecko2 reported the anoncvs problem to sf
13:36:30< cirdan>  heh
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14:34:14< RangerRick> werd
14:34:43< rand-irc> up
14:34:57< rand-irc> bbl all
14:35:00-!- rand-irc [n=admin@216.129.208.116] has quit ["Get MacIrssi - http://www.g1m0.se/macirssi/"]
14:48:42< RangerRick> yay, cvs reachable
14:48:55< akh> for now
14:50:29-!- dmacks [n=dmacks@pool-70-22-31-132.balt.east.verizon.net] has joined #fink
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14:57:31 * akh needs to keep out of the habit of committing GNOME packages lest someone get ideas. ;-)
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15:01:50< RangerRick> heh
15:07:47< akh> OTOH testing a 10.3 package on 10.4 and vice versa shouldn't be construed as my having deep GNOME knowledge.
15:07:56-!- cmeme [n=cmeme@boa.b9.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
15:08:12< dmacks> akh: Why? You're gnome-core aren't you?
15:08:57< akh> Heh.  That'll be the day.
15:10:07-!- emp [n=emp@70.57.239.37] has joined #fink
15:10:20< dmacks> So what version of epiphany is in each unstable now?
15:10:40< akh> 1,4,8
15:11:23< akh> (/me suddenly became European there)  
15:12:04< dmacks> heh
15:12:40< dmacks> You could join the bugzilla item about whether to use the degree sign when reporting kelvin temps...
15:13:21< dmacks> (the current "authoritative reference" is wikipedia:)
15:13:36< akh> The answer is no, of course.
15:13:53< akh> The SI unit of temperature is Kelvin, not degree Kelvin.
15:14:00< dmacks> 'at's what ACS Style Guide says.
15:14:32< dmacks> ("no degree sign" that is)
15:14:32 * akh always measures temperatures in energy units anyway.
15:14:43-!- spundun [n=spundun@mermaid.isi.edu] has joined #fink
15:14:50< akh> (for work)
15:15:14< dmacks> Ah. /me was picturing you and Mrs. fighting over the thermostat at home.
15:16:13< akh> "amn it, I said .023 eV, not 0.025.  You think we're made of money?"
15:16:23< akh> D+above
15:16:33< dmacks> ha
15:21:02 * akh investigates if something got left out of my last HEAD fink checkout or if breakage has occurred.
15:26:11< TheMystic> hrm, trying to compile a local ruby 1.8.3 pkg, i'm getting an undefined symbol: _environ
15:27:10< akh> sounds vaguely familiar
15:27:47< TheMystic> 'tis weird, since that symbol should be available to any program w/o linking against anything weird...
15:28:41 * akh is trying to remember which package had the problem before.
15:28:55< akh> glib2, maybe?
15:29:19 * akh found breakage in HEAD.
15:31:22< dmacks> TheMystic: _environ isn't defined by the standard headers a linux-world program would #include.
15:32:43< dmacks> (actually, it isn't defined on OS X at all, and the work-alike function's header isn't included by default)
15:33:06< TheMystic> so it doesn't get passed into OS X programs?
15:33:22< TheMystic> or it's just not declared?
15:33:36< dmacks> The _environ does not exist anywhere on OS X.
15:34:10< TheMystic> heh. that would explain why libruby won't link. :) how do other pkgs get around that?
15:34:24< RangerRick> well, it does, but it's linked only into binaries at compile time
15:34:44< dmacks> Well sure, one can #define anything one likes:)
15:34:45< RangerRick> if you're creating a library that uses _environ (as opposed to an executable) you'll have to do some tricks with _NSGetEnviron to make it happy
15:35:34< RangerRick> #ifdef __APPLE__
15:35:35< RangerRick> #include <crt_externs.h>
15:35:35< RangerRick> #define environ (*_NSGetEnviron())
15:35:36< RangerRick> #endif
15:36:03< dmacks> The standard way is implemented in glib2's .patch to gutils.c
15:36:15< TheMystic> RangerRick: that'll replace the definition on next line then?
15:36:16< TheMystic> extern char **environ;
15:36:17< dmacks> Er, what RangerRick said:)
15:36:56< RangerRick> TheMystic: I believe you want that *instead* of extern char **environ;
15:37:04< RangerRick> but I'm not positive
15:37:08< dmacks> Yeah, that extern would be the #else clause of RangerRick's #ifdef.
15:37:27< TheMystic> RangerRick, dmacks: right. okie. thanks, will try :)
15:37:32-!- newmanbe_ is now known as newmanbe
15:41:20< dmacks> Hey akh, it's been days since /usr/local bit someone. Thank goodness for -beginners coming through for us!
15:41:29< akh> heh
15:41:54< newmanbe> !send dmacks to a shrink
15:42:13< newmanbe> -beginners coming through! The thought...
15:44:49< dmacks> M-x doctor, here I come!
15:45:32< newmanbe> !send dmacks to a shrink
15:45:39< dmacks> akh: I think 'cp' thing is mine...
15:45:44< newmanbe> Using emacs. /me shakes his head. 8)
15:45:49< akh> dmacks:  ah
15:47:20< akh> luckily /me only sent two nasty-grams before I decided to check fink.
15:47:54-!- bmaret [n=smaret@MARETMACLT2.astro.lsa.umich.edu] has joined #fink
15:48:07< dmacks> newmanbe, I figured you'd like emacs...it has a gopher mode.
15:48:17< akh> M-x gopher-mode ?
15:48:21< bmaret> hi folks
15:48:25< newmanbe> It does? Never really used emacs.
15:48:25< akh> hi bmaret 
15:48:30 * newmanbe shrugs.
15:48:41< bmaret> Is X11 installed by default with Tiger now ?
15:48:54< newmanbe> Shouldn't be.
15:49:01< akh> No.  X11SDK is installed by default with XCode, though.
15:49:12< dmacks> akh: Dunno, but there are several matches for "gopher" in the .el set
15:49:29-!- Murr [n=neeri@A17-202-20-71.apple.com] has joined #fink
15:49:46< bmaret> akh I see you just answered to the guy on fink-users
15:49:51< akh> Yes.
15:51:11< akh> I'm not sure where new boxes put stuff now.  My newest Mac came with 10.2.
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15:51:47< bmaret> make sense. I didn't get why the X11 installer was complaining about a newer version of X11 if no X11 is installed
15:51:55< bmaret> was X11SKD indeed...
15:52:29 * dmacks thinks the "download X11" item from Apple's website pulls 10.3's, which leads to even more confusion for Tiger users.
15:52:41< akh> dmacks; indeed it does.
15:52:45< akh> (both)
15:53:01< bmaret> but Fink webpage is clear
15:53:20-!- sid77 [n=sid77@host-84-222-59-120.cust-adsl.tiscali.it] has quit ["http://slackintosh.workaround.ch/"]
15:53:22< akh> Relatively, yes.
15:53:59< bmaret> but users don't read doc, they complain on fink-users...
15:54:15< akh> RIght--they google first.
15:54:57< newmanbe> Not I! ;)
15:55:04< newmanbe> I just checkout web.
15:55:43< akh> heh
15:57:49< TheMystic> yay! libruby linked properly
15:58:03< TheMystic> thanks y'all :) now let's see if the thing actually works
16:00:29 * dmacks replicates cp error.
16:01:05-!- Gardner [n=mjg@pcp05047549pcs.ivylnd01.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Bye!"]
16:03:20< dmacks> *grr* leading/trailing whitespace!
16:04:26< akh> dmacks: Ah.  Not too surprised.
16:08:30< dmacks> ...in an old section of code that is rarely used in a way that has leading/trailing whitespace.
16:09:36< akh> As I said. :-)
16:09:42< dmacks> yup
16:10:24< RangerRick> hah, drm!  http://bash.org/?546800
16:11:01< akh> hehe---though he's in Oakland today.
16:12:15< dmacks> heh
16:13:05< akh> And IIRC, he did the same Gertrude Stein quote last time he was there.
16:14:59< dmacks> akh: Give HEAD a try.
16:15:04< dmacks> Er, well you know....
16:16:44< akh> lol
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17:11:01< dmacks> RangerRick: What's your understanding (if any) of the freedesktop menu standard?
17:11:25< RangerRick> very little
17:11:34< RangerRick> I know they standardized on a place and format for menu files
17:11:36< RangerRick> but that's about it
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17:12:38< dmacks> Same as me then.
17:15:26< akh> mmm...menus
17:17:40 * akh will report back on the fix to HEAD after I pick up Chinese food.
17:19:44< dmacks> All I know is http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.os.apple.fink.gnome/1323
17:21:37< dmacks> Aw hell, I'll wikificate it.
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17:29:25< akh> dmacks:  the problems are solved
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17:30:21< dmacks> akh: Great!
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17:37:53< dmacks> RangerRick: Feel free to add anything you know to the wiki page. Maybe if you know which kde pkgs supply which "standard" files or env vars?
17:40:11-!- dmacks is now known as dmacks_away
17:46:46-!- htodd [i=htodd@i8u.org] has joined #fink
17:47:22-!- akh_ is now known as noob
17:47:53< noob> htodd:  I couldn't get dia to work because there was a "buildlock failure".  Fix it!
17:48:03-!- noob is now known as akh_
17:48:07< akh_> ;-)
17:48:10< TheMystic> ok, ruby compiles fine as my user but fink fails to build it because of the readline vs. libedit issue.
17:48:46< htodd> aaaigh
17:48:51< TheMystic> i.e. undefined symbols because the fink build isn't finding the real libreadline but my manual build is.
17:49:06< akh_> htodd: Just thought I'd give you flack ;-)
17:49:17< htodd> I have a new job now
17:49:25< akh_> Cool.
17:49:34< akh_> (or is it?)
17:49:36< htodd> I'm all serious and not possibly on IRC because of the strong corporate firewall
17:49:54< htodd> this must be a 'bot talking
17:50:20< akh_> Gotta work on the larts then.  :-)
17:50:36< TheMystic> any ideas how i can get fink to see the real readline? (which is installed thru fink)
17:51:39< akh_> Did you set any of the various *FLAGS variables for your by-hand compile?
17:52:17< akh_> (and I assume that the configure flags were the same)
17:52:33< TheMystic> akh_: configure flags same, no hand-tweaking
17:52:59< TheMystic> it's some difference in the environment between my normal user and the sudo'd fink build, but i don't know where
17:52:59< akh_> OK--so it might well be an environment variable thing, since fink clears those.
17:53:27< newmanbe> It's a good housekeeper. :)
17:53:34< TheMystic> akh_: ahh, that was my thought. tried adding 'source /sw/bin/init.sh' to /etc/bashrc, but that didn't work.
17:53:56< akh_> No--that won't do it.  You'd have to set them in the .info file.
17:54:35< TheMystic> akh_: hrm, ok... not exactly sure what to set to make it work
17:54:48 * akh_ is looking up the reference for you.
17:55:09< TheMystic> the command that gets run is even the same between builds, so it must be something affecting ld's default search path
17:55:29< akh_> http://fink.sourceforge.net/doc/packaging/reference.php?phpLang=en#fields -- go down to "Compile Phase"
17:55:46< akh_> Probably you need to use SetLDFLAGS:
17:58:07 * akh_ thinks the guy in the "installing mozilla" thread on -beginners is going to be trouble.
17:58:58< akh_> (and > half of the discussion is offlist)
18:00:22< akh_> I could be wrong, but I doubt it. ;-)
18:04:05< TheMystic> the default for LDFLAGS claims to be %p/lib, which should grab the real readline... setting it manually to test anyway
18:04:31< akh_> Right--It might be one of the other *FLAGS
18:04:58< akh_> It's total voodoo sometimes to figure out what's supposed to go where.
18:29:50< TheMystic> getting closer, i think. the fink build seems to be finding the right include dir, but not the right *lib* dir
18:30:23< TheMystic> and i think it's a weirdness with ruby's build system setup (the way it builds extensions, specifically)
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19:04:58-!- dmacks_away is now known as dmacks
19:04:58< dmacks> TheMystic: You can 'fink dumpinfo -fenv somepkg' to see the env that fink will use when compiling "somepkg".
19:04:58< dmacks> Feel free to lisppaste a .info snippet and a compiler failure and someone might recognize what flag is missing or inconsistent...
19:06:58< TheMystic> dmacks: coo, thanks :)
19:07:43-!- TheMystic [n=kbullock@x84-64-172-dhcp.che.umn.edu] has quit ["Get MacIrssi - http://www.g1m0.se/macirssi/"]
19:08:56< akh> w00t!  No upstream xcircuit in 6 whole days!
19:09:13< dmacks> Devels must be having server outage.
19:11:00< akh> Could be.
19:14:18< akh> D'oh--I've been strongly instructed to reboot.
19:14:30-!- akh__ [n=akhansen@68-118-244-23.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #fink
19:15:57< akh> mmm...new upstream LyX.
19:15:58< akh> gurgles
19:16:41< dmacks> Woo...libSystem security update!
19:17:09< akh> oh-oh
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19:17:41< dmacks> Nope...*that's* not likely to be a mandatory-reboot and easily-backed-out patch...
19:17:41-!- akh is now known as akh__
19:18:37< akh__> heh
19:18:56-!- akh__ is now known as akh
19:21:26< akh> Wonder what it'll break?
19:21:47< dmacks> My uptime
19:23:15-!- Uchiha [n=wyattgoe@dial-in-66-159-217-78.dslextreme.com] has joined #fink
19:23:31< Uchiha> I'm fink installing bundle-gnome
19:23:41< Uchiha> with a dial up connection
19:23:53< Uchiha> is there a safe way to pause the download?
19:23:57< Uchiha> of a package?
19:24:37< Uchiha> pressing ctrl-z makes it yield currupted data.
19:24:53< dmacks> Uchiha: There's no "suspend". However, for tarball downloads, if you cancel and restart, it will usually attempt to pick up where it left off.
19:25:04< Uchiha> Yeah well
19:25:41< dmacks> (and each tarball is distinct, so at worst you'd only lose one partially downloaded file; ones that had already completely downloaded would not be touched)
19:25:46< Uchiha> there like a 148 mb package that will take me 14 hours to download, and I can only download something for 9 hours before someone kicks me off.
19:26:57< dmacks> Do you have a friend or office or library with a faster connection? Download there and burn a CD
19:27:38< Uchiha> How can you download the fink install packages whatever?
19:27:53< Uchiha> Or are you suggesting I build the remaining backages manually?
19:28:17< dmacks> I'm throwing out a half-dozen ideas because I don't know exactly what your situation is...
19:29:19< Uchiha> I just have to stop a download
19:29:59< dmacks> So stop it.
19:31:19< Uchiha> I have to resume downloading a partially downloaded file.
19:31:39< dmacks> (or find somewhere with a faster connection and just download the whole thing)
19:32:16< dmacks> "if you cancel and restart, it will usually attempt to pick up where it left off."
19:32:24< Uchiha> right
19:36:19< dmacks> For something that large, it's probably more efficient to walk to a friend's house in another state even:/
19:36:38< dmacks> Or maybe you could download the precompiled binary of that package?
19:36:46 * dmacks back in a minute
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19:38:19< akh> Of course, there may not _be_ a precompiled binary.
19:38:41< Gardner> Never underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of magtape.
19:38:49< akh> heh
19:40:19< akh> Though that can take a while to reload...
19:40:58-!- dmacks [n=dmacks@pool-70-22-31-132.balt.east.verizon.net] has joined #fink
19:41:44< dmacks> drm has often mentioned his grad-school Hondanet.
19:42:41 * akh managed to get everything from grad school onto 1 CD.
19:43:05< akh> Which I've now lost.
19:43:17< dmacks> heh
19:43:41< dmacks> "It's okay to put all your eggs in one basket, as long as you are *very* careful with that basket."
19:44:12< akh> Yeah--it wasn't like I actually _needed_ any of that stuff for anything.
19:45:35 * dmacks had thesis backups scattered across three states. But the early frames of a molecular dynamics simulation? one tape...somewhere or another...
19:45:35< akh> I waited until my last paper and invited talk from grad school-related matters were done before I did the backup.
19:46:18< akh> One unlabeled tape, I assume.
19:46:47< dmacks> Obviously...no reason not to allow reuse of a write-only backup.
19:46:57< akh> heh
19:47:50< dmacks> Three puters, three tape drives, three different blocking and other parameters. "thanks SGI!"
19:49:01< akh> Ugh
20:16:23< Uchiha> dmacks: You mentioned a precompiled binary thing, are you suggesting that there is a special OS X packkage that installs gnome?
20:24:10< dmacks> Uchiha: Some versions of some fink packages are available precompiled.
20:24:24< dmacks> ("gnome" is a set of many packages, not a single thing)
20:25:35< newmanbe> dmacks: I expect that the gopher package will be the top of your priorities for making binaries. ;)
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20:27:17< akh> newmanbe: It just needs tp go to stable.  
20:27:21< akh> to
20:27:43< newmanbe> That usually depends on the maintainer getting reports from people who use it...
20:27:48 * newmanbe shrugs.
20:27:55< dmacks> So basically sit around and talk to yourself I guess:)
20:28:02< newmanbe> Hehehe.
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20:36:33< akh> "Stop gophering yourself...Stop gophering yourself..."
20:37:21< dmacks> "Would that I could, suh."
20:37:39< akh> heh
20:37:41< dmacks> "Say 'choudah'!"
20:37:57< akh> "showdair"
20:38:47< dmacks> "I am not a clumsay Clouseauesque waitehrrrrrr" 
20:39:29< akh> right
20:40:59< dmacks> *kerthump*
20:44:10 * akh should actually start _using_ openoffice.org more since I spent all that time compiling it. ;-)
20:44:26< newmanbe> No! TeX!
20:45:15 * newmanbe really needs to learn a replacement to TeXShop.app.
20:45:37< akh> newmanbe: Not in this case--a 4' x 8' poster is just too hard to set up the way I want in LaTeX.
20:46:00< akh> At least I'm not using PowerPoint.
20:46:02< newmanbe> You do of course know TeX though. ;)
20:46:04< newmanbe> Heh.
20:46:32< akh> Of course.
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20:57:00 * dmacks looks at gopher...
20:57:56< newmanbe> RangerRick made me do whatever it is that is wrong with it! :-p
20:58:26< newmanbe> It even had an update from when RR made the original package. :)
20:59:46< dmacks> Are there possibly other implementations of the 'gopher' command other than this one?
21:00:03< newmanbe> UMN stole it first.
21:00:33< dmacks> That's not my question (note that this is not leading to a "port another one!" question:)
21:00:36< newmanbe> I haven't seen anything and it is also used on Debian. *shrugs*
21:01:02< newmanbe> emacs is, like, big....
21:01:38 * dmacks thinks "naming the package "umn-gopher" would solve the validator warning.
21:01:48< newmanbe> That'd be fine.
21:02:08 * dmacks also thinks "gotta get the tarball onto a server that doesn't suck camel-cock"
21:02:23< newmanbe> Debian should have it.
21:02:36< newmanbe> Is that where it get's it from?
21:02:58< newmanbe> Hmm, guess not.
21:03:30< dmacks> No. erwin.complete.org:70, which is slow, hangs, and doesn't send a header indicating the file size.
21:03:48< newmanbe> Yes, it is actually being server by a Gopher server. :)
21:04:32< newmanbe> Oops, I just commented the lines for the patch instead of deleting them.
21:04:48< dmacks> Yet Another Sucky Thing about gopher then:)
21:05:10< newmanbe> There's no reason why it can't.
21:05:29< dmacks> My point is "it doesn't in the case at hand, which is bad"
21:05:29< newmanbe> The daemon used at erwin.complete.org only immplements HTTP 1.0.
21:06:17< newmanbe> Fine, fine. I can see if it is somewhere else.
21:07:03< newmanbe> If they really get desperate, they can just reley on the md5 checksum.
21:07:47< newmanbe> ;)
21:08:03< dmacks> Users with dialups won't know if they're about to d/l a 10K file or a 10M file.
21:08:08< newmanbe> http://ftp.debian.org/debian/pool/main/g/gopher/gopher_3.0.11.tar.gz <--
21:08:24< dmacks> mirror:debian...now we're talkin'!
21:08:32< newmanbe> So http://ftp.debian.org/debian/pool/main/g/%n/%n_%v.tar.gz
21:10:10< dmacks> Search your dists/ for mirror:debian examples.
21:10:46< newmanbe> !praise grep
21:10:46 * Melian prostrates herself before grep.  "Can I have your baby, grep?"
21:11:20< newmanbe> mirror:debian:pool/main/g/%n/%n_%.tar.gz
21:12:13< dmacks> There are some other things to fix too, so you can put that in the next .info
21:13:25< newmanbe> I hope I won't have to change the DescPackaging:. :-p
21:14:11< dmacks> Heh. That would be a minor quibble at this point.
21:14:35< newmanbe> Hmm, that implies that there are major problems...
21:14:49< dmacks> Yes.
21:17:25< dmacks> (in addition to the Source and alternate source and potential different Package we discussed here)
21:24:41< newmanbe> I blame RR for the ncurses problem. :)
21:25:05< newmanbe> But what are these users things you speak of? ;)
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21:31:46< dmacks> Dunno, but they sure clutter up maintainers' mailboxes!
21:35:33< dmacks> OTOH, if you fail the --build-as-nobody test, that's an indication that something hella-serious is wrong.
21:37:41< newmanbe> Hmm, I do like non-usable binary packages...
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22:44:00< dmacks> !seen vasi
22:44:01< Melian> vasi <n=vasi@modemcable133.147-70-69.mc.videotron.ca> was last seen on IRC in channel #fink, 4d 4h 33m 21s ago, saying: 'cool'.
22:46:00< brendan> why is it that every time I run fink selfupdate it replaces libgettext3-dev with gettext-dev?
22:46:56< dmacks> Until recently, gettext (and libiconv) were documented as "implicit dependencies for all pkgs" and one did not need to list them explicitly.
22:47:25< dmacks> Nobody's really convinced everybody else that all these have been made explicit.
22:48:03< dmacks> Even so, it's *probable* that this could be handled when building packages, instead of during selfupdate.
22:48:07< brendan> but doesn't libgettext3-dev provide anything that gettext-dev does?
22:48:21< dmacks> But again, nobody's convinced everybody that making that change wouldn't break stuff.
22:48:56< dmacks> No. libgettext3-dev and gettext-dev are *not* interchangeable in a packaging/dependency sense.
22:49:07< brendan> I mean, for now isn't an implicit dependency on libgettext3-dev just as good as one on gettext-dev?
22:49:43< brendan> (I always immediately swap it in after a selfupdate because a bunch of non-fink stuff is using it)
22:50:25< dmacks> No. If gettext-dev is installed, that results in a runtime dependency on gettext, while having libgettext3-dev installed at build-time results in a runtime dependency on libgettext3-shlibs.
22:50:51< dmacks> "gettext" is always installed (it's Essential), while libgettext3-shlibs may not always be installed.
22:51:26< dmacks> The documented behavior was "gettext-dev", not "some kind of gettext thing"
22:52:39< brendan> so it stays this way until every package has been audited for gettext linkage?
22:53:23-!- drm [n=drm@ip68-108-245-119.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #fink
22:53:25< dmacks> More likely until enough -core agrees that selfupdate shouldn't trigger it.
22:53:41< dmacks> (I do agree, BTW)
22:53:57 * drm wonders what is being discussed
22:54:01< dmacks> We also have to disentagle the selfupdate code (which doesn't need that pkg) from some other code that does.
22:54:16< drm> RangerRick: you around?
22:54:18< dmacks> drm: "why does selfupdate reinstall gettext-dev?"
22:54:30< drm> dmacks: there is a good reason
22:54:43< dmacks> brendan: Here you go then...
22:54:53< brendan> ...
22:55:18< dmacks> drm: Feel free to enlighten...
22:55:34< drm> dmacks, brendan: since gettext-dev is not an essential package, but is a splitoff of an essential package, the following possibility arises:
22:56:10< drm> dmacks, brendan: selfupdate would bring gettext to the latest version, but gettext-dev would be allowed to continue in its old version
22:56:28< drm> dmacks, brendan: thus leading to problems the next time it was needed during a compile
22:56:35< dmacks> Ooh, good point!
22:56:50< drm> so to avoid this, we reinstall it (which will force the latest version) during selfupdate
22:57:09< brendan> I thought if gettext-dev depended on gettext (= %v) it would get dragged along?
22:57:35< dmacks> brendan: Nope. We don't (as of fink-0.24.x) walk "up" the dependency tree.
22:58:18< brendan> dpkg doesn't do that?
22:58:23< dmacks> Nope.
22:58:29< drm> brendan: what is of course annoying at the moment is that we are in this transition between gettext and gettext3... once it is over, it is gettext3-dev which will be essential
22:58:54< drm> or rather, a splitoff of an essential
22:59:25< dmacks> drm: Could you please put a note about this reasoning in Bootstrap::additional_packages?
22:59:50< drm> sure
23:00:32< dmacks> (this topic has been discussed many times here, this is the first I've heard that reason:)
23:00:57 * brendan needs to wrap his head around this new tidbit about dependencies...
23:01:20< drm> do you want it in the perldoc, or just a comment in the code?
23:01:36< dmacks> comment for @addlist is probably sufficient.
23:01:44< dmacks> (=="in the code")
23:05:08< dmacks> drm: OTOH, this whole reasoning *may* be obsolete in fink HEAD. At least for 'fink install' usage, vasi's SysState does update libfoo-dev, where libfoo-dev:Depends:libfoo-shlibs(=%v-%r), when libfoo-shlibs is updated.
23:05:34< drm> yeah, i don't fully understand the changes vasi has made
23:05:45< dmacks> That makes all of us except vasi I think:)
23:05:53< drm> let me rephrase that: i can't begin to understand the changes vasi has made :)
23:06:03< dmacks> heh
23:06:36< brendan> would it be to gross to reinstall libgettext3-dev after installing gettext-dev iff it was installed when self-update started?
23:06:43< brendan> s/to/too/
23:06:51< dmacks> I do know that he hasn't simplified real_install enough to make it understandable by humans.
23:07:56< drm> brendan: my philosophy for some time, with regard to our install engine, is: if it aint broke, don't fix it... this is because it is very complex, and trying to change stuff almost inevitably breaks something
23:08:09< drm> needs to be rewritten from the ground up, which may indeed be what vasi is up to
23:09:23< dmacks> The current gettext game is just one (arguably an annoying and highly-visible one) of several selfupdate "mandatory -dev installs" that could happen.
23:09:46< dmacks> Special-casing them 1) sucks, as all special cases do, and 2) requires that fink itself be patched to "know" about specific non-core packages.
23:11:08< brendan> what if it just attempted to put back any packages that it conflicted out? hrm, I guess that would probably break some upgrade strategies...
23:12:12< brendan> guess it's probably easier for me to just use a selfupdate wrapper :)
23:12:42< dmacks> heh yeah. There are jillions of above-drooling-newbie uses that are easy to handle that way:)
23:13:06< dmacks> drm: What if we did 'for each @addlist {upgrade iff it's already installed}' ?
23:13:31< drm> that should work
23:14:06< drm> if we are careful to do that for upgrade, but not for bootstrap
23:15:00< drm> (i.e., do it when Bootstrap::additional_packages is called, not within the function itself)
23:15:11< dmacks> Right.
23:16:24< dmacks> Maybe even return two lists? @must_upgrade and @upgrade_if_installed? Your -dev splitoff of Essential -shlibs reasoning doesn't apply to the -pm that it returns.
23:18:04< drm> why are we trying to spare people from installing these things, again? these are "almost essential" packages, after all
23:18:47< brendan> the conflict with libgettext3-dev is irritating, because I have a bunch of local code that uses it that breaks if I forget to reinstall it
23:18:53< dmacks> To spare us listening to users complain about it?
23:21:10< dmacks> To minimize the essential (philosohpically, not formal dpkg) set of essential pkgs.
23:21:10< dmacks> Simplistic argument: "given that fink itself does *not* use gettext, why should it special-case *anything* about it? If it's needed by some other pkg that fink needs, well that's what *that* pkg has a Depends field for."
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23:21:10< drm> you mean gettext-dev, i guess
23:22:06< dmacks> yup
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23:23:07 * drm falls back upon the tried and true "if it ain't broke..."
23:23:19 * dmacks concurs in all matters of engine:)
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23:50:26< rpop> anyone else using gaim have all icons broken?
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--- Log closed Tue Sep 27 00:00:12 2005

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