--- Log opened Wed Sep 14 00:00:30 2005
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00:20:32< gecko2> breakfast... completed
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01:26:36< dmacks> vasi: Tonite's object lesson: you and I just surfed what, 15 -submissions items and found that...none were ready to commit?
01:27:02< vasi> heh, well that's one way to look at it
01:27:19< dmacks> Is just discouraging is all:(
01:27:21< vasi> on the other hand, Ben emailed me and he's understanding things much better now
01:27:33< vasi> and is much less discouraged about ever getting stuff committed
01:27:39< dmacks> Good on both counts!
01:28:55< vasi> hmmm....just a silly idea, but what if we made a new commit-bit contingent on mentoring someone within X weeks/months?
01:29:31< vasi> would that do more to get people helping out with the tracker? or just make people not want a commit-bit?
01:29:49< vasi> (ok, technically it's a commit ACL entry, you know what i mean)
01:30:02< dmacks> I fear the latter. "Aw hell, I'll just let my stuff sit in -commits"
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01:31:08< dmacks> Could wind up with committers who are good at their stuff but not broadly experienced having to help folks with complex shlibs pkgs if that's all that's available.
01:35:20< dmacks> Why does an original AirPort card (even used!) cost so much more than a new Airport Extreme one?
01:35:40 * beniamino_ feels his ears burning... and thinks: 
01:35:43< beniamino_> you shouldn't worry too much that every submission in the package tracker is crappy...
01:36:35< beniamino_> i think the current situation is: people submit a package, it's crappy, needs a lot of fixing, ...
01:36:51< beniamino_> the fixing-up process is slow and painful... and they give up
01:37:14< dmacks> I don't worry that much actually, as long as any given person's submissions show some reasonable first attempt and make an effort to improve
01:38:08< dmacks> "Hit'n'run" submissions really piss me off though.
01:38:25< beniamino_> right, exactly. i think you'll quality will improve dramatically with experience
01:38:38< beniamino_> s/you'll/you'll find/
01:38:51< dmacks> Ayup.
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01:39:12< beniamino_> yeah, i can see that's pretty annoying
01:39:24< beniamino_> no way to tell a hit and run from the other kind
01:40:51< dmacks> Yeah. I guess it's good to weed them out early, before they become Yet Another AWOL Maintainer, but still...I waste my time testing, building deps, trouble-shooting.
01:42:19 * dmacks just venting I guess:)
01:42:24< beniamino_> :-)
01:46:25< dmacks> OTOH if I could get my gf's office to switch to Mac, she'd love pspp:)
01:47:14< beniamino_> lol -- the reason i packaged pspp is because my gf uses it...
01:47:35< beniamino_> ... and 'configure; make; make install' is not really her scene
01:47:55< dmacks> yah
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01:51:04< beniamino_> SPSS is really an appalling POS. and not cheap. and there's lots of social science data stuck in SPSS files around the place
01:51:10< beniamino_> $600 !
01:52:11< dmacks> Yikes!
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02:15:54< vasi> yowzers
02:17:11< vasi> okie doke, bedtime for vasi
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05:42:35< lisppaste> mcp pasted "libshout4 b0rked" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/11666
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06:06:02-!- You're now known as gopherd
06:17:48< lisppaste> mcp pasted "nonsense dependencies?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/11669
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06:27:22< newmanbe> !lart telnetd for disagreeing with its manpage.
06:27:22 * Melian installs a bad bootloader on telnetd and turns telnetd into a brick for disagreeing with its manpage.
06:31:39 * newmanbe teaches Melian how to use pronouns.
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06:46:36< newmanbe> RangerAway: I submitted the gopher package.
06:46:55< newmanbe> Since you kept asking, I thought I'd tell you. :)
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07:17:34< akh> hmmm...I've been exaggerating how long it takes me to build oo.org.  It's a day shorter than I thought.
07:18:22-!- ringerc [n=craig@dsl-202-72-144-62.wa.westnet.com.au] has joined #fink
07:18:35< akh> (1.5 vs 2.5 days)
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07:55:35< cirdan> heh
07:56:08< cirdan> :-(
07:56:10< cirdan> dpkg: dependency problems prevent configuration of fink-buildlock-kdebase3-unified-3.4.2-22:
07:56:13< cirdan>  fink-buildlock-kdebase3-unified-3.4.2-22 depends on automake1.7; however:
07:56:16< cirdan>   Package automake1.7 is not installed.
07:56:24< akh> oops
07:56:25< cirdan> i thought that stuff was fixed
08:01:47< akh> Yesh--that's strange all right.
08:02:13< cirdan> been doping it often
08:02:15< cirdan> dooing
08:03:19 * akh is about to do an update-all so I'll check what happens here.
08:03:40< cirdan> using head?
08:03:56 * cirdan is using his branch, which is close to head
08:04:01< akh> Yup--freshly injected.
08:08:29< shres> anybody experts at building .apps for x11 projects
08:08:32 * shres prays
08:09:29< cirdan> heh
08:11:32< akh> AFAICT the ones I've used bascially have the .app run a script like "open-x11 <real application>"
08:11:49 * akh exaggerates a bit.
08:13:00< shres> heh, yeah, I have a apple script which does that much. Now i need to figure out to use xcode to build a .app which will execute that
08:13:54< shres> but it seems not to build anything into Contents/MacOS/<blah> and then cribs it does not have an executable to execute
08:14:17< akh> Ah--that'd be problematic.
08:14:39 * shres curses people who need to double click and install apps
08:14:47< akh> So it's not as simple as chmoding the script to be executable?
08:14:48< cirdan> heh
08:16:05< shres> yes, i just discovered that. Is there good documentation about how to do this. All my google search just shows up *xcode does this cool and that cool* but nothing about how
08:16:19< akh> Wish I knew...
08:16:41< shres> the world would have been so much nicer if everybody built from source
08:16:57< akh> Yeah.
08:17:09 * akh wishes I could rebuild my Finder.
08:17:34< shres> but again then i wouldnt have my job, but what the heck i can sell automobiles or something
08:17:50< akh> heh
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08:30:21< akh> oops--/me needs to figure out how to use TextWrangler to edit my commits messages.
08:31:29< cirdan> heh
08:31:53< akh> probably just need to set a switch or something.
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08:32:14< akh> Yup.
08:33:25< akh> RTFMP
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08:34:31< cirdan> RTFW?
08:34:31< RangerRick> man, Robert Jacobson hates me  :)
08:34:40< cirdan> RangerRick?
08:35:23< RangerRick> it's not on gmane yet
08:35:34< cirdan> o
08:35:47< RangerRick> fink-users "package missing?"
08:36:05< gecko2> re
08:36:24< cirdan> o
08:36:26< cirdan> heh
08:36:34< cirdan> stupid users
08:36:44< cirdan> he wants the equiv of packages.debian.org
08:36:50< cirdan> where u can search the contents of packages
08:36:52< RangerRick> well, no, insufficient documentation
08:37:04< RangerRick> the discussion of handling things in unstable really predates the heavy use of splitoffs
08:37:20< RangerRick> !unstable
08:37:20< Melian> somebody said unstable was http://www.finkproject.org/faq/usage-fink.php#unstable , or at http://www.finkproject.org/faq/usage-fink.php#bindist
08:38:16< RangerRick> I'm thinking the unstable stuff should really be changed to just talk about enabling unstable, and *maybe* suggesting copying with a big caveat
08:38:39< RangerRick> mixing and matching stuff in local is more trouble than it's worth, I think
08:38:57< RangerRick> more confusion for users
08:40:07< RangerRick> what do you think, akh?
08:40:58< cirdan> RangerRick: i aggree
08:41:06< cirdan> copying should be under somewhere else
08:41:22< cirdan> now that we have better deps on packages, things are too intertwined
08:41:37< RangerRick> maybe "Man, do I *really* have to enable all of unstable just to get a package or two?"  with the answer "well, if you're brave, you can do <foo>"
08:41:50 * RangerRick goes to do some doc stuff  :)
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08:51:09< akh> RangerRick:  sounds good.
08:51:51< akh> We should change the name of "unstable"...maybe call it "extreme" or something.
08:52:21< RangerRick> EXTREME!
08:52:33< RangerRick> http://www.qwantz.com/index.pl?comic=511
08:53:09< akh> hehe
08:53:20< RangerRick> man, that comic gets funnier the more of them you read  :)
08:53:32< akh> Or, if we actually _want_ people to use unstable, call it "ok"
08:53:43< akh> so we'd have experimental, ok, and stable.
08:53:52< RangerRick> experimental, stable, and stable-pending
08:53:53< RangerRick> :)
08:54:06< akh> Yeah, that sounds good. 
08:54:14< RangerRick> almost-there
08:54:21< RangerRick> very nearly not entirely unstable
08:57:06< akh> "should-not-crash-your-whole-system"
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09:10:08< akh> RangerRick:  Hmm...we already say that it's best to use all of unstable.
09:10:30< RangerRick> yeah, I'd just rather not even draw attention to the other way
09:11:35< akh> Right. So we may want a line that says "if you don't want to install any more from unstable than your specific package and its dependences, don't use update-all until you turn the unstable tree back off."  Or something like that.
09:13:22< akh> Let's be proactive so that when somebody gripes we can just say "You didn't RTFM". :-)
09:15:55< RangerRick> actually, doesn't cvs updating only update the stuff in the trees you ask for too, now?
09:16:40< RangerRick> the bit about enabling cvs doesn't really help nowadays, I think
09:16:48< akh> RangerRick:  I guess not.
09:17:07< akh> And we want to discourage that, anyway. :-)
09:17:28< akh> (at least until we lose the rsync mirrors)
09:17:32< RangerRick> yeah, so I guess we shouldn't even mention doing one or two packages?
09:17:38< RangerRick> or do we point them at the viewcvs?
09:17:55< RangerRick> or tell them to set SelfUpdateCVSTrees I suppose
09:18:03< RangerRick> oh, duh
09:18:09< RangerRick> no, it will still get all of a version's tree
09:18:11< RangerRick> just not other OS releases
09:18:18< RangerRick> my bad, that will still work  :)
09:18:24 * RangerRick doesn't remember his own features, hah
09:18:31< akh> heh
09:18:42 * akh trusted that you knew what you implemented. :-)
09:22:42< lisppaste> RangerRick pasted "how's this?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/11671
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09:24:36< akh> That sounds good.  I may add the caveat about "update-all" later if the mood strikes me.
09:25:09< RangerRick> ok
09:25:27< akh> (unless you want to do it--I don't mind ;-) )
09:25:37< RangerRick> what caveat?
09:25:49< RangerRick> oh, I see
09:25:53< RangerRick> yeah, just a sec
09:26:16< akh> Realistically it's not a problem, but you know how the users are...
09:27:22< cirdan> so did someone break the auto builddep swap?
09:27:38< cirdan> my update all kept failing w/head from a week or so ago
09:28:26< akh> cirdan: It looks like it works OK here.
09:28:37< cirdan> weird
09:29:02< RangerRick> I was getting that a week ago too
09:29:08< RangerRick> I think it might be fixed now, you might want to do another merge
09:29:26< akh> Right.  /me just injected about an hour and a half ago.
09:29:36< pogma> ls
09:29:47< RangerRick> ls: command not found
09:29:48< pogma> sorry
09:29:51< RangerRick> C:> 
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09:30:14< akh> aaaaaaah!
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09:30:38< akh> Not the C prompt!
09:30:56< cirdan> hehe
09:31:00< cirdan> c:\>
09:31:03< cirdan> :-p
09:31:06< akh> heh
09:31:12< RangerRick> whatever
09:31:23 * akh hugs my new "partition on the fly" application.
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09:57:23< baba_> sl
09:58:55< akh> ?
09:59:07< baba_> sl is a joke command
09:59:11< akh> ah
09:59:56< baba_> default fink installation should have sl package
10:00:38< akh> make one up, then.  :-) And tag it as Essential.
10:01:00< baba_> hehe
10:01:53< akh> Wonder if anybody would notice.
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11:23:28< akh> Oh, joy--building kdebase3* again.
11:24:36< RangerRick> hm, I changed faq.en.xml but the .html files didn't change after doing a make
11:24:46< akh> RangerRick: make install
11:25:25< RangerRick> but it doesn't even generate new ones in the faq/ dir?  or are they just .cvsignored?
11:25:37< akh> I think they're .cvsignored
11:25:43< RangerRick> yeah, looks like it
11:25:44< RangerRick> confusing  :)
11:25:55< RangerRick> I do a make, do a cvs up to see that everything's fixed, and then... nothing  :)
11:26:00< akh> heh
11:27:10< akh> Looks like _only_ the XML files aren't ignored in the source trees.
11:30:08< RangerRick> faq updated
11:39:44< akh> Cool.
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12:08:22< Gardner> Hi.
12:09:06< Gardner> Remember that libao problem I wrote about yesterday (http://paste.lisp.org/display/11633)? Well, just for kicks I tried installing the Darwinports version, and the compile broke in exactly the same way.
12:10:22< lisppaste> Gardner annotated #11633 with "Same thing happened with Darwinports" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/11633#1
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12:17:02< akh> Gardner: That's suspicious.
12:22:23< Gardner> Yes, it's clear that both projects are out to get me.
12:22:28< akh> heh
12:22:50< akh> Or maybe it's upstream who's out to get you.
12:23:28< Gardner> Yeah, but it's more fun to have twice the enemies.
12:23:46< Gardner> Paranoia doesn't really work if it's just one.
12:23:55< akh> Go for 3:  combo of Fink, DP, and libao upstream.
12:24:20< Gardner> Yes! And blame Apple, too!
12:24:37< akh> Always. ;-)
12:25:16< akh> hmmm...it built for me at _some_ point.
12:25:54< Gardner> Screw it, it was only a BuildDepends for Gaim, and I used the binary for that. Off it goes.
12:26:09< akh> Ah--it built for me on Panther.
12:26:15< akh> (no .deb on Tiger)
12:26:24< akh> That'd explain it.
12:26:44< Gardner> Yes, I'm running Tiger.
12:27:06< akh> Maybe it's an XCode2.1-ism...
12:27:48< akh> (warnings -> errors)
12:27:52< Gardner> Right.
12:28:03< akh> That's kind of what it looks like, anyway.
12:28:22< Gardner> Would forcing gcc 3.3 help?
12:28:42< akh> I doubt it.
12:29:04< akh> Oddly enough, it seems to be building for me...
12:30:02< Gardner> On Tiger?
12:30:08< lisppaste> akh annotated #11633 with "10.4.2, XCode 2.1" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/11633#2
12:30:10< akh> Yup.
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12:30:46< Gardner> My machine is a fresh install, is yours?
12:30:59< Gardner> Meaning, no archive & install or whatever.
12:31:12< akh> Nope--upgraded in place.
12:31:32< akh> XCode was a clean install, though.
12:33:05< akh> Also, I'm running fink from CVS HEAD, but I don't think that should matter.
12:33:27< Gardner> I'll try that, was using rsync.
12:33:27< akh> (and gcc -> gcc-4.0)
12:33:49< akh> Gardner:  Not the selfupdate version--I'm using a fink-0.25 prerelease.
12:34:00< akh> version -> method
12:34:31< Gardner> Oh. How whacko elitist of you. ;-)
12:34:56< rudy__> akh is super elite
12:40:00< lisppaste> Gardner annotated #11633 with "Section of configure script that will determine if SHRT_MAX is defined?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/11633#3
12:40:36< Gardner> I think that part has something to do with it -- I don't think __STDC__ gets defined.
12:40:51< akh> hmmm.
12:41:35< Gardner> Oh and as it turns out, gaim needs libao, so it's back to the binary for me.
12:41:41< akh> ah
12:42:54< akh> You _could_ install my .deb files.
12:43:02< akh> (no x.org linkage there)
12:43:59< Gardner> Not using X.org -- I thought Apple X11 was good enough with Tiger, am I wrong?
12:45:15< Gardner> Thought about switching, but wasn't 100% clear on how I did it in Panther.
12:45:19< akh> No--I am, and it breaks compatibility for people who use Apple X11 on some, but not all, packages
12:45:47< akh> libao2* are safe.
12:48:24< Gardner> :: shrug :: I don't think the changelog  shows that I gain anything by going from libao 0.8.4 to 0.8.5 anyway, the changelog doesn't look lik
12:48:28< Gardner> oops
12:48:32< akh> OK.
12:48:32< Gardner> Well, you get the idea.
12:48:46< Gardner> Stupid PowerBook enter key.
12:49:19< akh> heh
12:50:08< Gardner> Maybe when the package is on track again with upstream it'll be better tested & patched for whatever weird Tiger/Xcode i've got here.
12:50:30< akh> Gardner: Did you do a clean install of XCode?
12:50:45< Gardner> I think it might have been 2.1 on top of 2.0.
12:51:00< akh> Hmm...That _should_ be OK, but you never know.
12:52:37< RangerRick> 0.8.6 is on the ftp, we could just try updating it
12:53:00< Gardner> Any easy way of uninstalling my Xcode so as to do a clean install?
12:53:24< RangerRick> Gardner: sudo /Developer/Tools/uninstall-devtools.pl
12:55:17< Gardner> OK.
12:57:08 * Gardner heads over to get the Xcode 2.1 image first.
12:58:28< Gardner> Blah, there's already an Xcode 2.2 preview.
12:59:14< Gardner> akh: Do you have the Xcode Legacy Tools installed, too?
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13:44:17< kados> just attempted to use fink selfupdate on OSX 10.3 and fink 0.7.2
13:44:21< kados> I get:
13:44:21< kados> Can't exec "make": No such file or directory at /sw/lib/perl5/Fink/Services.pm line 408.
13:44:25< kados> ### execution of make failed, exit code -1
13:44:27< kados> Failed: compiling fink-0.24.10-11 failed
13:44:57< RangerRick> kados: you need to install xcode
13:45:02< kados> during the profile setup it complained
13:45:09< RangerRick> (and while you're at it, get the november 2004 updater too)
13:45:11< kados> where's xcode?
13:45:18< RangerRick> http://developer.apple.com/
13:45:26< kados> thx
13:51:40< kados> I can't find the OSX 10.3 version of xcode anywhere
13:52:23< RangerRick> it's xcode 1.5, you need to sign up for an "apple developer connection" account and then log in and download it
13:52:43< RangerRick> you don't have to pay, but you have to register (or find the xcode CD that came with the 10.3 install media)
13:52:57< RangerRick> but it's probably out-of-date, you're better off downloading from ADC
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14:01:15< cirdan> RangerRick: answered some questions for the irs today
14:01:24< cirdan> we need a list of contries we are active in :-/
14:01:56< cirdan> also copyright info
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14:02:38< cirdan> weird...
14:02:39< cirdan> Losing some ticks... checking if CPU frequency changed.
14:09:48< akh> Gardner: (back from the lab)  No XCode Legacy on this box.
14:10:49< Gardner> OK, I'll hold off on that until I'm up-to-date with libao.
14:11:15< akh> It shouldn't matter, though--that's just old SDK's and gcc compilers.
14:11:37< Gardner> Yah, well, a lot of things here shouldn't matter.
14:13:04< akh> True.  _Shouldn't_ becomes _does_ all too frequently.
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14:15:17< akh> feh:  Still building kdebase3-unified
14:16:34-!- dmacks [n=dmacks@pool-70-22-44-137.balt.east.verizon.net] has joined #fink
14:17:15< akh> dmacks needs to fix the dice on gtali, apparently.
14:17:18< dmacks> !seen drm
14:17:19< Melian> drm <n=drm@ip68-108-245-119.sb.sd.cox.net> was last seen on IRC in channel #fink, 1d 13h 55m 17s ago, saying: 'later'.
14:17:27< dmacks> ?
14:17:42< akh> (cf. my message on gnome-core)
14:17:57 * dmacks goes to fish it out of /dev/null
14:18:28< akh> fix == repair graphics , not fix == cause to roll nonrandomly :-)
14:18:55< dmacks> Aw damn
14:19:03< akh> Hey, "load the dice" would work here, too.  :D
14:20:31 * akh slinks away, having sowed the seeds of discontent.
14:20:51-!- akh [n=akhansen@ldx3.psfc.mit.edu] has quit []
14:21:00< dmacks> I have dice images in gtali.
14:23:18< dmacks> If 'otool -L libfoo.dylib' indicates a link to another lib, that other lib should be listed in libfoo.la dependency_libs right?
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14:26:50< dmacks> pogma: How does .la deal with -framework flags (besides "not very well")?
14:46:09< dmacks> Ne'ermind...looks like some "Peter O'Gorman" fellow has solved it in new libtool
14:47:54-!- Fingolfin [i=Fingolfi@unaffiliated/fingolfin] has quit ["42"]
14:57:06< RangerRick> cirdan: phear
14:57:21< RangerRick> it's solved in libtool 2, which doesn't have a stable release  :)
14:57:23< RangerRick> there's a patch for 1.5
14:59:22< dmacks> Yeah, google saw it on some "befunk" website or something.
14:59:45< dmacks> I think that's the same wacko who's holding KDE/Mac hostage.
14:59:56< RangerRick> hehe
15:00:33< dmacks> (doesn't matter much now...would involve patching our libintl pkg also, and I am *not* interesting in going down that path right now.
15:01:41< RangerRick> so buildconflicts is still once-per-fink not once-per-dep, right?
15:01:49 * RangerRick is hitting buildconflict issues even with HEAD
15:01:56< dmacks> Dunno. That's vasi/drm's department.
15:02:21< dmacks> But that's what it sounds like. Or else it's once-per-dep but then they get re-installed too soon.
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15:46:47< kados> so finally got fink working ... what are the limitations on adding new feeds
15:46:58< kados> I'd really like to get wireless tools installed on my OSX
15:47:04< kados> is that going to be possible>
15:48:41< dmacks> What's a feed?
15:51:47< kados> uh ... like a package feed man
15:51:56< kados> you know, where you get packages ;-)
15:52:21< dmacks> Ah. Anyone is welcome to submit a new package description for any free software.
15:52:36< kados> grrr
15:52:57< RangerRick> the limitations are on people willing to contribute package descriptions to us
15:53:06< RangerRick> if you're looking to see what software is in fink, see http://fink.sf.net/pdb   :)
15:53:25< kados> so I can't just add any debian feed
15:53:32< dmacks> Fink is not Debian.
15:53:39< dmacks> Debian is not Fink.
15:53:42< dmacks> Fink is not Linux.
15:53:55< dmacks> Debian is not OS X.
15:54:03< dmacks> Bummer:(
15:54:10< kados> whatever
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15:54:15< RangerRick> hah
15:54:25< dmacks> Where do we get these types?
15:54:31< RangerRick> do we need to put a huge "FINK IS NOT DEBIAN!" at the top of the fink site?
15:55:34< dmacks> Maybe we *should* tell 'em how to edit apt.sources to include debian, but tell them they'll have to talk to debian not us for help if those pkgs don't work?
15:56:40< RangerRick> haha
16:00:51< brendan> would it be interesting to set up an 'incoming' or 'untested' dist as a place to dump the packages stuck in the submission queue (so anyone who needs it can get it easily, and the sources get pulled into the mirrors)
16:01:34< dmacks> There's a high-priority bugs tracker item about that.
16:02:11 * brendan searches...
16:03:41-!- ringerc [n=craig@dsl-202-72-144-62.wa.westnet.com.au] has quit ["zzzzz *snork* zzz"]
16:04:11 * brendan chases down the wiki links...
16:07:38< brendan> this brings up a related question... what's the next step if a package maintainer seems unresponsive? submit the update via the tracker? post it to fink-devel?
16:08:40< dmacks> Yup. Especially remember to mention that maintainer is unresponsive.
16:08:59< brendan> yup, post it to fink-devel?
16:09:43< dmacks> fink-devel would love to know who's gone AWOL (regardless of whether you'd like to take over or not). If you'd like to submit a package and take over, then submissions tracker is the place for actual new packages.
16:10:07-!- RangerRick is now known as RangerAway
16:10:11< brendan> ok
16:10:29< dmacks> Who/what are we actually talking about here?
16:11:05< brendan> I think I've run more than one update past Matthias Neeracher (sp from memory, probably wrong)
16:11:12< brendan> eg mercurial is languishing
16:11:35< brendan> let me browse my sent mail...
16:13:50< brendan> Sylvain Cruz (lame) hasn't responded to an update from april...
16:13:56-!- zizban [n=zizban@24-52-0-219.sbtnvt.adelphia.net] has joined #fink
16:14:01< dmacks> zauc is known to be AWOL
16:14:23< dmacks> Well, "with leave" perhaps...I think we have official confirmation:)
16:15:19< dmacks> neeri was last active in late-July.
16:15:42< brendan> dmalloc hasn't responded to a gsasl9 patch from july. I think that's known too
16:16:00< dmacks> Yeah...he's newly disappeared too:(
16:17:13< brendan> So I should just dump updates in the tracker?
16:17:43< brendan> oh, and if an update goes in the tracker, and yet another release happens while it's pending, do I just edit the original item?
16:18:01< dmacks> Yeah I guess. If it's something small ("here's a bug, here's the one-line solution") -devel or even #fink can probably handle it quickly.
16:18:39< dmacks> But for whole new versions, tracker is the way as you describe.
16:20:09< brendan> would be kind of cool if there were an automatic way to use an old info file against a new release...
16:20:24< dmacks> ?
16:20:32< brendan> I bet most updates are just bumps to the version and new MD5s
16:20:44< dmacks> Ayup.
16:20:50< brendan> sometimes a new version breaks the old info, but probably not usually
16:21:22< dmacks> minor-version updates to well-written code is usually pretty easy:)
16:21:25< brendan> would be cool if you could just ask fink to try whatever info file it has against a release it doesn't know about
16:22:19< dmacks> Ah yeah. That's pretty deep AI for the general case:
16:22:32< dmacks> s/:/ though:(/
16:23:28< brendan> in what sense?
16:23:51< dmacks> If it doesn't know about a release, how will it know what release to use?
16:24:11< brendan> I mean the user would have to request it
16:24:24< brendan> fink install mutt --upstream-version 1.5.10
16:24:26< dmacks> (it's fairly common that *part* of the version-number is encoded in the path to the source, for example)
16:24:58< brendan> even just substituting in %v on the fly would probably be useful
16:25:34< dmacks> Would be just as easy to edit the .info, which also makes the whole thing more reproducible.
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16:26:33< dmacks> Also, cmd-line would mean ignoring MD5, something I don't think we'll be allowing anytime soon.
16:27:07< brendan> well, it would downgrade it to a warning
16:28:04< dmacks> Still pretty unlikely to happen.
16:29:37< brendan> is there a fink autobuilder? that'd be a cool place to hook in a watch script and an almost automatic upgrader...
16:30:13< dmacks> Some people have some for limited cases (CPAN modules for example).
16:31:02< dmacks> .info is just a text file...seems like you could define a specific solution to what you have in mind and implement it.
16:31:40< brendan> yeah, I hadn't thought it through
16:32:07< brendan> I always get annoyed finding the info, copying it to local and editing it, but that's because I've been too lazy to script it
16:32:33< brendan> as my local tree grows it becomes more worthwhile though :)
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16:33:09< dmacks> cp `fink dumpinfo -finfofile $pkgname | cut -d: -f2` /sw/fink/dists/local/finkinfo
16:33:31< dmacks> (or somesuch...just pulled that outa my ass:)
16:35:32< brendan> didn't know about dumpinfo. that beats find /sw/fink/dists :)
16:36:42< dmacks> dumpinfo is a great developer tool...displays how fink interprets all your %-expansions, env vars, and other technical details from the .info
16:38:20< brendan> nice
16:43:21< cirdan_> hola
16:44:14< dmacks> 'lo cirdan_ 
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17:21:21< newmanbe1> Thank you SourceForge.net for sending me an e-mail for a change I made for a tracker item!
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18:30:09-!- RangerAway is now known as RangerRick
18:35:33 * akh checks if anything was committed while I was afk
18:37:23< akh> qt3 ????
18:37:46< RangerRick> 3.3.5 has a bug in uic (whee)
18:37:54< akh> ah
18:40:26< akh> Well, at least it looks like builddep swapping works.
18:49:30< zizban> getting any rain from the hurricane RangerRick ?
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18:56:40< RangerRick> zizban: some
18:56:58< zizban> ah. I was curious
18:57:16 * akh would love some of that if it would cool things off and cut the humidity.
18:57:34< zizban> ya!
18:57:43< akh> Tomorrow, I guess.
18:58:23 * RangerRick got burnout legends for the psp today
18:58:29< RangerRick> not gonna be getting much done tonight  :)
19:00:07< akh> heh--so nothing more for me to build.  I'll dea.
19:00:12< akh> deal.
19:00:20< RangerRick> hehe
19:10:15< zizban> heh
19:18:58< zizban> akh: you try my Links package so I can it can be moved to stable
19:19:44-!- dmacks_away is now known as dmacks
19:20:59< dmacks> You could patch gnome-system-monitor...it's leakin' like the Eagles defensive line.
19:21:01< akh> zizban: Gimme a sec.
19:21:08< akh> dmacks:  heh
19:21:15< zizban> heh
19:21:23< zizban> my team had a good sunday :)
19:22:53< akh> Indeed they did
19:23:04< akh> zizban: links looks OK.
19:23:28< zizban> thanks, man
19:24:01< zizban> will someone nice move it to stable then I'll start on the latest cutting edge version
19:24:17< dmacks> I was quite conflicted...current local team played the team that used to be here before they moved away.
19:24:52< akh> Root for injuries?
19:25:03< dmacks> Ya.
19:26:59< zizban> I am a Jaguars fan, then a Patriots fan. In that order
19:27:29< dmacks> I like whoever's beating the Colts.
19:27:40< RangerRick> I'm an oscillating fan
19:28:19< zizban> I am one of those ceiling fans that squeaks horrible when its on
19:28:27 * dmacks contemplates throwing shit at the fan.
19:28:47< zizban> heh
19:29:02 * akh roots against the Raiders, come what may.
19:29:27< zizban> everyone outside Oakland does, me thinks
19:29:38< akh> Yeah
19:29:47< dmacks> yup
19:30:58< dmacks> Thinking of gambling...akh, I have no problem with gtali's dice.
19:31:21< dmacks> Nor gnomine's cards.
19:33:24< akh> ummm...isn't the latter minesweeper?
19:35:08< zizban> send your problems to the gnome maintainer
19:35:14< zizban> ah, wait, we don't have one :)
19:35:21< akh> Wonder what the deal is.  Maybe I'll try a rebuild and capture a log.
19:35:37< akh> zizban: And I did sent them to the black hole.
19:35:51 * akh nominates zizban for GNOME maintainer.
19:35:53< zizban> good place
19:36:17< dmacks> Oops yeah...someone was complaining about gnomine, someone else about sol. Well anyway both work for me.
19:36:29< akh> sol worked for me, too.
19:36:42< dmacks> Some missing support pkg or runtime env var perhaps?
19:37:31< akh> $DICESPOTS
19:37:57< akh> If the former, then there should be a depend.
19:39:32< dmacks> Right. "all we need to do" is figure out what (or what version of what)
19:39:44< akh> right
19:40:31< zizban> yup
19:41:18< akh> I added your links to 10.4-transitional/stable
19:42:14< zizban> you rock
19:48:03< akh> dmacks:  unfortunately there's no error message.
19:48:07< baba_> !seen miga
19:48:08< Melian> miga <~miga@easyconnect2121138-139.clients.easynet.fr> was last seen on IRC in channel #fink, 65d 10h 55m 17s ago, saying: 'There seems to be some explanation in info files.'.
19:48:15-!- baba_ is now known as baba
19:48:20< akh> wow
19:48:56< dmacks> akh: Do you have both XDG_DATA_DIRS and XDG_DATA_HOME as /sw/share in your env?
19:49:22< akh> yup
19:49:48< dmacks> Everything up to current unstable?
19:50:09< akh> yes
19:50:10< dmacks> Nothing in console or syslog?
19:50:19< akh> nope
19:51:01< dmacks> ("no dice" huh?)
19:51:19< akh> heh
19:51:41< zizban> ha!
19:51:46< dmacks> Do you have /sw/share/pixmaps/gtali/gnome-dice-{1,2,3,4,5,6,none}.svg, all readable (and the dir +rx also)?
19:52:28< akh> 1sec
19:53:55< akh> yes to both
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19:54:52< dmacks> Does 'otool -L /sw/bin/gtali' indicate  /sw/lib/librsvg-2.2.dylib (9.0.0), and is that file present?
19:55:53< akh> I've got 12.0.0, current version 12.5.0 there, and the file is present
19:57:32< akh> And was built on Tiger.
19:58:01< dmacks> (ah, I'm at a 10.3 box)
19:58:06< akh> Yeah
19:58:17< dmacks> Idunno how to solve this one:(
19:59:02 * akh blames Tiger's dyld
19:59:29 * zizban blames Steve Jobs
20:03:35 * akh will check it on this box
20:06:34< akh> dang--gmail's down
20:07:38< zizban> it is???
20:07:43< akh> For me.
20:07:56< zizban> not here
20:08:03< akh> Stupid ISP.
20:08:35< akh> or something
20:09:55< akh> Ah--back up now.
20:13:51< dmacks> Nice to see orkut and gmail merged, and orkut incompatible with my mozilla now.
20:13:51< zizban> I have been using my gmail for work
20:14:46< akh> dmacks: hmmm.
20:17:29< akh> crap
20:17:45< akh> _EVP_idea_cbc bullshit
20:17:51< dmacks> d'oh
20:18:25< akh> And I've got DYLD_LIBRARY_FALLBACK_PATH=:
20:19:10< akh> And it doesn't happen on my other box.
20:20:46< akh> quelle strange
20:23:36< akh> I apt-got it.  Wonder if that has something to do with the issue at hand
20:24:29< akh> (not the icon thing)
20:26:13< dmacks> dunno
20:26:25< akh> 'tis strange.
20:26:29< akh> Stupid 10.4.2
20:26:41< zizban> we need 10.4.3
20:27:28 * akh gave pogma a positive report to relay on to Apple.
20:28:10< dmacks> If only seed->release were like unstable->stable:)
20:28:17< akh> yah
20:28:19< dmacks> "works for me" "okay, send it out"
20:28:30< zizban> ya
20:29:10 * zizban is still under NDA with Apple for his weekend of work doing "demo days" at Circuit City
20:29:32< akh> Do you get seeds?
20:29:45< newmanbe> That can't be a good sign if you aren't supposed to tell anything at a demo...
20:29:49< zizban> used to until last year when I ran out of money to renew :/
20:29:50< dmacks> heh
20:30:09< akh> So what exactly aren't you disclosing?
20:30:14< zizban> I honestly dont know what was supposed to be secret
20:30:23< dmacks> Wow, that *is* secretive
20:30:28< zizban> maybe the fact I got a nice polo shirt
20:30:37< akh> Ah
20:30:56< newmanbe> !jobs
20:31:01< newmanbe> !steve
20:31:02< Melian> Jobs.  Shhhh!  He might hear you!
20:31:24< akh> heh
20:31:27< zizban> heh
20:31:31< newmanbe> Now you'll have to give us all shirts!
20:31:44< newmanbe> Just looks at the dev-map and air drop them. ;)
20:32:12< akh> Me first.  (less of a haul)
20:32:26< zizban> heh
20:32:44< zizban> Its nice. I asked for 3x so I could still wear it as I expand in age :)
20:32:52< akh> Good plan.
20:33:16< zizban> works so far :)
20:34:01< zizban> Red Sox won
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20:34:51 * akh is always glad not to be working late on home game days.
20:35:07< zizban> yes!
20:35:17< zizban> taking the T on game days is bad enough
20:35:58< vasi> ?
20:36:10< akh> zizban:  Yup.  I took the late commuter train when there was a late game and it parked at Fenway for like half an hour.
20:36:34< akh> vasi:  T = Boston mass transit
20:36:55< akh> "game days" == "Red Sox baseball"
20:37:15< akh> So that night I didn't get home until 12:30 AM the next day.
20:37:24< zizban> Isee? us New Englanders think the US ends at the Hudson River
20:37:49< akh> I thought it ended at the Taconic range.
20:38:12< akh> And Bostonians think it ends at 128; 495 at the outside.
20:38:12< zizban> Ya somewhere between the two
20:38:22< zizban> akh: I did when I was growing up
20:38:30< zizban> and my sister in Plymouth still thinks it does
20:39:21< akh> Heh--it kind of does if you go "radially" out in that part of the state.
20:39:44< akh> That whole "ocean" thing.
20:41:27< vasi> zizban, oh i didn't know you were from Boston
20:41:51< zizban> heh
20:41:58< zizban> I grew up southeast of Boston
20:42:07< zizban> I live in the Taconic Range :)
20:42:12< vasi> i'm technically "from Boston" myself...but my folks moved away when i was 3
20:42:19< akh> zizban:  Where SE?
20:42:25< zizban> Duxbury
20:42:54< akh> That's one I don't know--I'm mostly familiar with the commuter rail stops.
20:42:56< zizban> Once you go Boston, you can never go back
20:43:11< akh> Yeah, because you're stuck in traffic. ;-)
20:43:12< zizban> akh: south of Braintree on the Red Line
20:43:17< zizban> heh
20:43:42< akh> zizban: Ah--Braintree I know pretty well.  We lived in Canton when I first came to MA.
20:43:59< zizban> so that general area
20:44:10< zizban> where the hell that is Route 3 begins
20:44:18< akh> Ah.
20:45:52 * akh tries to avoid going east of 128 if possible.
20:45:58< zizban> me too
20:46:05< zizban> I got my transponder today
20:46:10< akh> Not including workdays, of course, but I don't drive normally.
20:46:16< akh> zizban: Cool.
20:46:25< zizban> ya
20:47:03 * akh calculated that just the tolls between here and work probably run a good chunk of the cost of my train pass.
20:47:49< akh> But my gas is back below $3/gallon for regular unleaded, so it's time to buy that SUV.  :-)
20:48:34 * akh wonders if the gas prices are part of the KDE conspiracy.
20:49:07< akh> KDE binaries for tiger when the US average is $4/gallon.
20:49:45< zizban> heh
20:50:37< zizban> gas will be $10/gallon when KDE/Aqua is finished
20:51:06< akh> hah
20:51:08< vasi> (*sigh* when are you people going to learn about the metric system?)
20:51:36< akh> When you pry my YARDstick out of my cold dead hands. ;-)
20:51:37< RangerRick> when we get a new dep engine
20:51:41< RangerRick> same reason, "why bother?"
20:51:59< vasi> who says we're not gonna get a new dep engine? :-)
20:52:10 * vasi has my secret plans....
20:52:12< RangerRick> Mr. Experience  ;)
20:52:17< RangerRick> you're welcome to prove me wrong  :)
20:52:56< vasi> i've already had 3 or 4 devs say "we'll never gonna get a working partial indexing"...so much for that!
20:53:02< akh> vasi:  Did you see my addendum on the "mentoring" page?
20:53:12< vasi> akh, about 10.3/10.4?
20:53:18< akh> Yup.
20:53:27< vasi> yeah, i added '10.4' for myself already
20:54:04< zizban> mentoring? like a big brother/sister thing
20:54:07< vasi> akh, so are ya gonna pick someone to mentor? :-)
20:54:17< akh> vasi:  Good plan--luckily your "student" is a 10.4 person too.
20:54:26< vasi> zizban, kinda like the Debian "sponsorship" thing
20:54:35< vasi> http://wiki.opendarwin.org/index.php/Fink:Mentoring
20:54:56< newmanbe> Sigh.
20:55:04< newmanbe> It looks like I might have to use HTTP again.
20:55:21 * newmanbe wacks telnet and its manpage and goes to download the source from Debian.
20:55:35< zizban> huh. interesting
20:55:40< akh> newmanbe: HTTP is here, it's now.  Get used to it.
20:55:48< zizban> baby steps
20:55:53< vasi> newmanbe, why don't you build a HTTP-to-<something else> proxy?
20:55:53< zizban> first HTTP
20:56:00< zizban> then javascript
20:56:09< newmanbe> vasi: I use telnet usually.
20:56:25< vasi> well you're still technically using HTTP if you use telnet to port 80 :-)
20:56:26< newmanbe> But I'm going to be downloading a binary so I might as well be using a web browser.
20:56:30< vasi> it's just manual HTTP
20:56:43< newmanbe> Yes, but it makes me feel better.
20:56:55< zizban> placebos are underrated
20:57:00< akh> denial's not just a river in Africa
20:57:02< vasi> but if you built a HTTP-bot for IRC, for example...you could pass it a url, and have it /msg you with the result
20:57:17< vasi> maybe number all the links, so you can tell it to follow one
20:57:23< vasi> wouldn't that be better?
20:57:33< newmanbe> Hehe, probably.
20:57:34< vasi> (and a stupid waste of energy, but not my problem :-P )
20:58:01< zizban> heh
20:59:09< akh> vasi:  Any recommendations on who to mentor from the existing list?
20:59:18< zizban> RangerRick?
20:59:30< vasi> akh, i don't know any of them...search the submission tracker for their usernames
20:59:54< vasi> and then pick based on that....best quality, most interesting for you, whatever
20:59:59 * akh knows _of_ all 3 of the "unclaimed" 
21:00:14 * akh will look into it in the morning.
21:00:18< zizban> am I on the list?
21:00:27< akh> Only if you put yourself there.
21:00:43< akh> (and you probably should--as you're a maintainer)
21:00:44 * zizban sighs in releif
21:00:49< zizban> OH
21:01:00< vasi> it's a voluntary kinda thing :-)
21:01:04< akh> That way you can commit your own damn packages.  ;-)
21:01:11 * zizban loves the idiots the weather channel sends to hurricane warning areas
21:01:15< zizban> akh: heh
21:01:36< vasi> "As I'm standing here, there has been an evacuation order"
21:01:39< vasi> meh!
21:01:55 * akh thought the Daily Show's report on hurricane reports was priceless.
21:02:02< zizban> heh
21:02:10< vasi> "Oh look, rubble is falling all around me, isn't that interest-*CRUNCH*"
21:02:27< vasi> i haven't seen that one...hope it's online somewhere
21:02:44< akh> It might be--was pre-Katrina
21:02:47< RangerRick> zizban: what?
21:03:01< zizban> It was a jest mr RangerRick 
21:03:05< akh> Do you need a mentor?  :D 
21:03:19< RangerRick> didn't even know what you were referring to  :)
21:03:26< RangerRick> just scanning backlog, not paying attention to IRC much  :)
21:03:34< zizban> heh
21:03:38< akh> RangerRick: OTOH you might want to take on a "student"
21:03:48< RangerRick> yeah, was thinking about it
21:03:54< akh> Train them for when you're too old to deal with KDE.  :D
21:04:12< RangerRick> I'll just put KDE on the "looking for maintainer" list  ;)
21:04:26< akh> hehe
21:05:09< akh> Time for bed.
21:05:10< zizban> heh
21:05:13< zizban> good night
21:05:20< akh> nite
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21:13:23< brendan> damn, I just missed getting a mentor
21:14:01< vasi> :-/
21:14:24< vasi> stick around, akh shows up a lot
21:14:58< brendan> really just want a "that'll do pig" and "commit your own damn packages"
21:16:01< zizban> heh
21:16:03< brendan> oh, is the thing in parens on the mentor page the wiki userid or the sf one?
21:16:46< zizban> bank atm card and pin #
21:17:04< brendan> oh! had no idea, glad I asked
21:17:23< zizban> no problem
21:17:25< zizban> :)
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21:22:30< vasi> SF user name
21:22:38< brendan> thanks
21:22:41< vasi> so that mentors can easily search the submission tracker for you :-)
21:23:04< zizban> mmmm mentors
21:23:07< brendan> fair enough
21:27:30< brendan> I'd be interested in adopting mutt (and am an upstream author) btw...
21:27:50< dmacks> cool!
21:28:01 * dmacks loves mutt
21:28:07< brendan> yay
21:28:29 * newmanbe does too.
21:29:37< brendan> 1.4.2 is getting a little crusty I'm afraid
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21:30:16< dmacks> ya
21:30:44< zizban> I used to like Pine but via la no spam filters and POP is a pain in the ass
21:31:16< brendan> pop just sucks.
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21:35:12< zizban> yep
21:36:59< newmanbe> Spam filters? Poor souls.
21:37:19< brendan> anyone else's spamassassin gotten a lot less effective recently btw?
21:37:51< zizban> dont use it, sorry
21:38:53< brendan> think I'm going to throw out the bayes db
21:44:01< brendan> oh, I haven't really been tracking the gettext vs libgettext3 drama. Which one should I uses for builddepends (updating mutt)?
21:44:42-!- zizban [n=zizban@24-52-0-219.sbtnvt.adelphia.net] has quit []
21:50:40< vasi> libgettext-dev
21:50:42< vasi> er, 3
21:51:38< brendan> thanks, that's what I figured...
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23:53:03< dmacks> vasi?
23:54:02< vasi> ya?
23:54:33< dmacks> Ya wanna test-drive a new gnome-python2-pyXX?
23:54:40< vasi> oooh
23:55:33< vasi> experimental?
23:56:00< dmacks> Ayup. dmacks/finkinfo/gnome-2.10 or somesuch
23:56:36< dmacks> (even though it's really 2.12...don't tell Dr. Math:)
23:57:09< vasi> heh
23:57:14< vasi> i'll take a look soon
23:57:24< vasi> i'm currently trying to explain shlibs packaging to ben
23:57:25< dmacks> Cool.
23:57:47< vasi> in Yet Another Manuscript-Length Email
23:57:50< vasi> YAMLE!
23:58:03< dmacks> Good! Need more people to at least recognize how to do it (even if the complete reasoning isn't clear)
23:58:28< dmacks> Add to the tutorial?
23:58:47< vasi> hmm maybe merge it in
23:58:55< vasi> which ben has kinda volunteered to do already
23:59:01< dmacks> sweet:)
23:59:12< vasi> he hasn't seen our crazy doc format yet though
23:59:19< vasi> :-/
23:59:20< dmacks> Don't show him!
23:59:24< vasi> (well, so far as i know)
--- Log closed Thu Sep 15 00:00:32 2005

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