Topic 36: Info Rich and Info Poor? By: Sunday working group (teluride) on Sun, Jul 25, '93 30 responses so far Dave Hughes convened a session on Sunday morning regarding the issue of "Information Rich/Information Poor" and how to prevent stratification into these categories when the Telluride system is implemented. Participating were Dave Lehman, (Prof. of Economics, U. Colo.), Von Moyer (architecture grad. student), Mark Graham (Pandora Systems), Kathy Green (local planning board), Madalyn Gonzales (on leave from Bell Labs working with Telluride Institute) and Lee Felsenstein (Interval Research Corp.) The session immediately brought up the issue of whether the Telluride system (Infozone) was simply intended to support rich refugees who will drive up property values and exclude locals. Jackson Hole was raised as a bad example, where the newcomers have brought suburbanization at high prices. 30 responses total. Topic 36: Info Rich and Info Poor? # 1: Dave Lehman (teluride) Sun, Jul 25, '93 (12:17) 9 lines It's a dangerous srtep to assume that what's good for Telluride is good for the country as a whole. This could represent the u ltimate in suburbanization, where talented and capable people are drawn away from other areas to live a comfortable life in isolation, served by low-wage people wh o aren't part of the information scene. Public policy should be encouraged to provide public terminals and/or low cost availability of terminals, like Minitel. Topic 36: Info Rich and Info Poor? # 2: Dave Hughes (teluride) Sun, Jul 25, '93 (12:18) 2 lines 50 percent of what goes on is common to all communities, 50 % is unique. Topic 36: Info Rich and Info Poor? # 3: Lee Felsenstein (teluride) Sun, Jul 25, '93 (12:21) 7 lines Community Memory was developed explicitly to serve a local area at the level where people could walk in to places with public terminals and use them hands-on. We did not go on-line and took a lot of heat from the computer crowd, but we knew that had we gone on-line the system would have loaded up with computer chatter and ordinary people would be turned off. It's possible to design and install a system using public terminals without requiring that everyone be facile computer users. Topic 36: Info Rich and Info Poor? # 4: Dave Lehman (teluride) Sun, Jul 25, '93 (12:23) 3 lines The Interstate Highway system was a disaster for this country. When it was started anly a percentage of Americans had cars - it was done to subsidize their flight to newly-created suburbs. Topic 36: Info Rich and Info Poor? # 5: Madalyn Gonzales (teluride) Sun, Jul 25, '93 (12:27) 5 lines Gore and Clinton have moved away from the Interstate Highway metaphor. I don't think this issue is a big deal here - most people already have some kind of telecommunication equipment. Public access terminals may be needed elsewhere, but not in Telluride. Topic 36: Info Rich and Info Poor? # 6: Von Moyer (teluride) Sun, Jul 25, '93 (12:28) 2 lines What about the truck driver or mechanic who works on the BMWs with the California plates - how does the Infozone help them? Topic 36: Info Rich and Info Poor? # 7: Lee Felsenstein (teluride) Sun, Jul 25, '93 (12:33) 7 lines (In response to Mark Graham's questioning the efficay of Community Memory in Berkeley): Community Memory was based on a vision which we didn't implement fully. The vision is of a network of very local, neighborhood level series of gathering places, some of them in the living rooms of neighborhood activists. At each such gathering place ther would be a terminal on the system. We didn't do the necessary outreach to find those groups, but the vision is still valid, I believe. Topic 36: Info Rich and Info Poor? # 8: Dave Hughes (teluride) Sun, Jul 25, '93 (12:42) 12 lines Colorado City has a Senior Citizen's center with a computer room but no communications. Senior Net came in and set up a training center - that was a mistake. The seniors had classes and eventually developed the S.N.U.G. club, open to those over 55 and bypassed the Senior Net. I sold them a TBBS system. The average age of their members is 70, the non-technical sysop is 81. The A.R.P. opposed the Gore proposal. Schools who had kids communicating with these elders were information poor by comparison. The kids are going to resent the fact that the elders, with time on their hands, can organize and politically direct the resources away from the young to themselves. This will create information rich/poor stratification on the basis of age. Topic 36: Info Rich and Info Poor? # 9: Dave Lehman (teluride) Sun, Jul 25, '93 (12:43) 1 line What is the Infozone concept? Topic 36: Info Rich and Info Poor? # 10: Dave Lehman (teluride) Sun, Jul 25, '93 (12:48) 5 lines Maybe Minitel is a better model. In France the truckers use Minitel to arrange return loads. They use 100,000 hours pe month. French farmers organized on Minitel to oppose the Maastricht treaty. Here truckers can use cable screens to find return loads, but onbly large loads are listed and it takes a lot of time to read the whole scroll. Topic 36: Info Rich and Info Poor? # 11: Mark Graham (teluride) Sun, Jul 25, '93 (12:51) 2 lines Minitel is technologically brain dead. In the U.S. 50% of homes with school-age children have computers. Topic 36: Info Rich and Info Poor? # 12: Dave Lehman (teluride) Sun, Jul 25, '93 (12:53) 5 lines The technology is not relevant - public policy is the point. I suggest a statewide or federal tax credit of $200 for telecommunications equipment. This will create a market for low-cost terminals and for information providers. Topic 36: Info Rich and Info Poor? # 13: Dave Hughes (teluride) Sun, Jul 25, '93 (12:57) 12 lines I don't believe the public good will be served by using trickle-down economics. We have to return to the 1934 Federal Telecommunications Act with its universal access features. The real policy today is to let big corporations put the inteelligent devices into the home piggybacking on entgertainment and home shopping applications on the assumption that usage will automatically benefit the public. Not so! I don't whant to have the information strtucture developed by MTV and Home Shopping Channel. I think it has to be based upon the needs of the communities. Topic 36: Info Rich and Info Poor? # 14: Kathy Green (teluride) Sun, Jul 25, '93 (12:58) 1 line Why should we want to alk on the netowrk? Topic 36: Info Rich and Info Poor? # 15: Dave Hughes (teluride) Sun, Jul 25, '93 (13:00) 4 lines We're not going to be just talking to each other. Public policy documents, government information has to be available for discussion on line, available even to the mechanic who can only access a few hours a week, but hwo has things to contribute to the discussion. Topic 36: Info Rich and Info Poor? # 16: Dave Lehman (teluride) Sun, Jul 25, '93 (13:01) 2 lines Put the information infrastructure in place and the community will decide how to use it. Topic 36: Info Rich and Info Poor? # 17: Madeline Gonzalez' notes (teluride) Sun, Jul 25, '93 (13:03) 46 lines How to Prevent Info Rich/Info Poor -What does information technology have to offer the lower middle class.. or people in professions like truckers, roofers..? - Maybe can help with time.. they like other adults have not time.. telecom enables them eg., to take care of stusff like registering their cars..Dave Hughes described how his BBS on old.colo is a virtual version of a physical community.Someone stated their fear/belief that the info highway will be the ultimate suburbanization.. Money should be used for providing comm devices to people eg., terminals. In the meantime should be put in public places, eg., libraries, pst offices..ISomeone pointed out that although the interstate highway system is often used as a metaphor or analogy for the info highway, most people didn++t even have cars when it was built. Again, teh statement that *libraries are critical* .Dave ghes described how a group of seniors in Co Springs had formed SNUG (Senior Network Users Group) and were quite active telecom users.. formed own BBS just for folks over 55, with the sysop 81 years of age.. a place where senior citizens can ask and get answers to practical questions of special concern to them, eg., health and life insurance issues.. so although a national group like ARP officially came out against Gore+s vision, local groups of seniors such as this one when receiving the necessary support, can and are finding much use in the -info highway+.. should reinforce any initiative or curiosity of others; can+t plunge them into - internet+ , show them whatever they need. Talked a little about how 100,000 French farmers organized themselves on Minitel during GATT.. and truckers are able to take care of all their scheduling via Minitel!? Serves as an electronic meeting place for them, provides a mechanism for *finding* each other.. truckers in U.S. currently using cable feeds ? could benefit from being online..It was brought up that one of possible apps was to have every ordinance, every discussion of elected officials available to all citizens online.. Topic 36: Info Rich and Info Poor? # 18: Dave Hughes (teluride) Sun, Jul 25, '93 (13:03) 4 lines 2000 people use the bulletin board in Colorado City, while 20,000 accesses are made to the city voice response system. I'm talking about 5 billion MINDS interacting through multi-modal communication, not all logging into a bbs. Topic 36: Info Rich and Info Poor? # 19: Lee Felsenstein (teluride) Sun, Jul 25, '93 (13:08) 9 lines I need to explain here before we run out of time a very important concept that is integral to Community Memory. We are trying to create a public space for conversations of the sort that take place in large groups, rather like the village square. We call it the Commons of Information, or the Agora. On Community Memory you can be a member of several such places, and you use the system to become familiar with others in your area. You then move off the system to do whatever you want to do with them. Community Memory is not intended to substitute for any other medium, rather to complement them. Topic 36: Info Rich and Info Poor? # 20: Dave Hughes (teluride) Sun, Jul 25, '93 (13:10) 5 lines What worked in Monmtana was having circuit riders going out on the road to hold community meetings and to demonstrate the Big Sky Telegraph to the local people as a system for the schools to use. Frank Odasz was the local guy who created that system. Topic 36: Info Rich and Info Poor? # 21: Dave Lehman (teluride) Sun, Jul 25, '93 (13:11) 1 line I show Minitel to non-technical people and they say "why don't we have this?" Topic 36: Info Rich and Info Poor? # 22: Dave Hughes (teluride) Sun, Jul 25, '93 (13:14) 3 lines Experience is necessary for a common basis of understanding. Organize sustained public discussion - maybe 6 months' worth. Trust the democratic process. Topic 36: Info Rich and Info Poor? # 23: Von Moyer (teluride) Sun, Jul 25, '93 (13:15) 2 lines It's interesting and frightening. The idea for the Infozone was born out of property owners wanting to sell million dollar houses. Topic 36: Info Rich and Info Poor? # 24: Kathy Green (teluride) Sun, Jul 25, '93 (13:17) 4 lines This area was not much different from Mexico when I arrived ten years ago. No cable, only a little bad TV from Grand Junction. People here still have to go to the post office to pick up their mail, and anyone can get u p a petition by going there. Topic 36: Info Rich and Info Poor? # 25: Dave Hughes (teluride) Sun, Jul 25, '93 (13:19) 4 lines I am impressed by the number of people who formed the WELL who had been members of communes and who realized that their children were not going to be able to get the same kind of education they had gotten. They formed the WELL so that their kids would not be among the information poor. Topic 36: Info Rich and Info Poor? # 26: Lee Felsenstein (teluride) Sun, Jul 25, '93 (13:20) 3 lines a note - I was the reporter for this session, so I have probably been more elaborate on my responses. My apologies to those who participated who might not feel fully represented. Topic 36: Info Rich and Info Poor? # 27: Erik E. Fair (fair) Sun, Jul 25, '93 (14:32) 3 lines How many "poor" people have telephones and TVs? Erik Topic 36: Info Rich and Info Poor? # 28: Matisse Enzer (matisse) Tue, Jul 27, '93 (00:38) 1 line In this country, more people have TV than indoor toilets. Topic 36: Info Rich and Info Poor? # 29: Lee Felsenstein (lee) Wed, Jul 28, '93 (17:39) 2 lines There's a lot more "information poor" than "poor" people. And it's going to matter a lot more once things like InfoZone get running. Topic 36: Info Rich and Info Poor? # 30: Doug Carmichael (dougc) Thu, Jul 29, '93 (11:54) 3 lines A poor person can make a bigger class difference by getting hooked up than by any otehr thing they can do, including going to college. .