Telecommunications Radio Project Communications Revolution Program #6-94: "Creative Solutions to Old Problems in Education" KPFA Radio - August 9, 1994 Panelists: Carol Edwards, Dan Leopard, Michael Schrage, Ken Wasch Project Director and Host: Jude Thilman Executive Producer: Bari Scott Associate Producer: Carol Klinger Managing Editor: John Rieger Associate Editor: Claire Schoen Feature Producer: D. Roberts Introduction by Jude Thilman You've got two choices, right? Spend big bucks on computers and educational software for your kids, or plan on them flipping burgers for the rest of their lives. Whether you're a parent or a struggling school district, sometimes it seems just that black and white. I'm Jude Thilman and this is the Communications Revolution. One hot debate in education is how much of your precious dollars -- public or private -- are you going to spend on hi-tech teaching tools? Whether we like it or not, U.S. schools spend $600 million dollars annually on software, and that's on the rise. Is this a wise investment in our children's future, or are we all getting suckered in by the slick pitch of edu-tainment software marketers? We have four experts in technology and education with us to discuss this issue. Here in the Berkeley studios of KPFA are: Michael Schrage, who is a Research Affiliate with the Sloan School of Management at MIT, and technology columnist for the LA Times; Dan Leopard has taught Video, Film and Computer Multi-media in the San Francisco School District for ten years. And from the studios of Monitor Radio in Washington, D.C., we are joined by Carol Edwards, the Director of Programs of the National Foundation for the Improvement of Education, and Ken Wasch, Founder and Executive Director of the Educational Software Publishers Association. Before we all dive into the subject, let's hear this report from Producer D. Roberts. Feature by D. Roberts: (Voice 1) World history and our American history programs have a list price of $79.95... (Voice 2) We're dedicating next year to technology... (Voice 1) You can get a multi-media P.C. for about $1,400 dollars at this point... (Voice 2) So most of that money will go to technology... (Voice 3) If you like it, keep it and honor the invoice... (Voice 2) Yes, we do have the money... we just have to know what to do with it. (Narrator) At the National Education Computing Conference in Boston, computer software vendors are selling their wares to prospective buyers. Teachers and Administrators in the education business. (Voice 2) "Last year we purchased a Mac lab, which was over $100 thousand dollars, and this year we plan to go even further than that." (Narrator) Thousands of booths fill the demonstration hall with signs and sounds designed to attract educators. Schools buy an estimated $600 million dollars worth of software every year. And sales for home educational software are expected to pass the billion dollar mark. (Carmen S.) "Sorry to break up your little tea party detectives." (Detectives) "... everyone has been after her!" (Carmen S.) "Sayonara!" (Announcer) "The most elusive and notorious criminal in the world...." (Narrator) With eight different versions, a board game, a cartoon, and a TV game show, perhaps the most successful educational software program is "Where in the World is Carmen Sandiego?" Valerie Cook-Carpenter of Broderbund, the makers of "Carmen" says the company grossed $96 million dollars this year, making it the 14th largest software company in the country. "The reason is quality," says Carpenter, "their mission, like that of any other business in the free enterprise economy." (Carpenter) "We're a publicly held company, and our first obligation is to our share-holders. What they're interested in is in revenue growth. That's our first priority. Within that, though, I think that we believe children learn when they are engaged, when they're involved, and having fun. You know, sharing with their friends and each taking turns, trying to figure out how to do something, or one holding the mouse and the other typing on the keyboard. Frankly, the level of education delivered, varies a lot, but that is not our mission." (Narrator) Education, however, is the mission of parents and teachers. So how do we assure that products created by business are the best for our children? Broderbund's edu-tainment are designed mainly for the lucrative home market. But Carpenter says they don't overlook the link between home and school. Often kids with home computers tell their teachers about their favorite programs. (Carpenter to kids) "Okay, on a scale of one to ten, how do you like this game?" (Zuri) "Ten" (Carpenter) "Jay, on a scale of one to ten..." (Jay) "I don't know I haven't seen the whole thing yet." (Carpenter) "You haven't seen the whole thing yet? Okay...." (Narrator) "Zuri is nine and Jay is ten." (Carpenter) "Do you have this kind of stuff at school?" (Jay) "It's not this advanced, at all." (Carpenter) "Describe to me what you have in school." (Jay) "Well, they're sort of cheap and... well they're nice computers for schools, but they're just not that much fun." (Narrator) Zuri says his school just replaced those old computers and he can't wait to try out the new ones. More and more schools are jumping on the technology bandwagon. With property tax measures failing, schools are struggling to survive. Often technology is one way to convince tax payers to support their schools. "This is the library here?" "This is the... we don't call them libraries anymore..." "What do you call them?" "These are called Information Centers" (Narrator) John Ottisen of the Vancouver Washington School District, tours the newly built Eleanor Roosevelt Elementary School. What used to be the library, now is the center of the school lined with computers and a few rows of books. (Ottisen) "Ten years ago, 80% of the learning might come from the printed page. Today, in our district and in this school, I'd say its probably 50/50. Fifty percent, maybe, from the printed page, fifty percent from electronic information. Electronic encyclopedias instead of the printed encyclopedias." (Announcer) "How does the oldest school district in this state prepare for the 21st century and one of the fastest growing communities in the nation?" (Narrator) Vancouver is the kind of district parents dream of sending their kids. Its a place without the inner city problems that plague other urban areas. That could be one reason why the district just passed a $135 million dollar bond measure, the second largest in a region not known for school support. About 18% is for technology, even more is for building and redesigning new schools to look like corporate office buildings. "So, all of these are not necessarily classrooms, you're calling them pods? (Ottisen) "Well, this whole area would be considered a pod, including the classrooms." (Narrator) A pod is another name for rooms in the wing of a school. In these office schools Vancouver kids will work on computer projects in teams. The teacher will be the guide on the side rather than the sage on the stage. This is the future and few people question the office model. (Schrage) "At the turn of the century we built our schools on the model of the factory, and now we're trying to design our schools, or redesign our schools to be sort of like white-collar work places. And I suppose instead of getting report cards we'll be giving children pink slips." (narrator) Michael Schrage writes about technology for the Los Angeles Times. (Schrage) "All of these companies that want to provide educational software to the public schools, these companies are the welfare queens of the information age. They want to take public subsidies and then convert that public subsidy into commercial software, the profits of which they keep. So they are snuffling at the public trough. And I don't believe that they are honest participants in the quality of education debates." (narrator) Edu-tech companies court the district, and often let them test their wares for free. Tom Hagley, of Vancouver Schools says software's cheaper than books and there's nothing wrong with big business providing either. (Hagley) "Well, we're certainly benefitting from the free market competition that's out there because that pace of change caused by the competition is healthy because we're able that way to improve that technology at a faster rate, and then of course the students ultimately benefit from that. The other things is that it gives us an opportunity to take bids from a number of competitors and secure the best price and the best product." (narrator) Often the push for technology rushes a school into getting equipment before the curriculum can handle it. Casey Anglim teaches at Kellogg Middle School in Portland, Oregon. (Anglim) "When you're dependent almost solely on technology it's a major problem when a computer crashes or when the network doesn't work. Students will be working away on a computer and all of a sudden something will just go out, almost as if you pulled a plug. And then you spend a lot of time trouble-shooting, trying to find out what the problem is and there's a lot of down time." (narrator) Both Anglim and Michael Schrage would rather see more teachers being hired than more technology. (Schrage) "Are you more comfortable trusting your child's education to a machine or a good teacher? What would you rather have? If people believe that they don't trust humans and they trust machines more, then we will invest in the technology that we trust rather than the people that we don't." (narrator) Whether it's geared toward the human factor or the machine, the key to our children's future is in the hands of schools that can sift through the technology being sold today. One thing is clear, technology is with us and schools and parents are only too eager to get kids ready for the future, seemingly, at any cost. And, for good or bad, business is even more eager to sell it. I'm D. Roberts for "The Communications Revolution." (speaker) "I invite you to join me in helping to empower all of our public schools to respond to the challenge of preparing our students for the 21st century." ****** Host Jude Thilman: For good or bad, technology is with us, but how much of it we use and for what purposes may be what determines whether we rule it or it rules us. I'm Jude Thilman, let's begin our discussion by turning to you Ken Wasch, Executive Director of the Software Publishers Association. Now, these companies in our report have been called the welfare queens of the information age, more interested in stockholders than kids' education. How do you respond to that criticism? Ken Wasch: The only criticism I've heard has come from Michael, but I will respond to it anyway. I don't believe that's the case. I think the industry is made up of many serious minded individuals in dozens and dozens of companies, probably well over a hundred companies produce quality educational software products today. And educational software products are in great demand, in fact it's the part of the software industry that is growing faster than any other part. Host: In great demand doesn't prove that they're actually meeting educational needs. Do these companies participate in the planning of this software so that it is meeting pedagogical goals for educators? KW: For sure they are. We just completed a report, the report is called "The Effectiveness of Technology in the Schools." We've commissioned an outside organization to examine the various studies of the use of information technology or computer technology in the schools. And the report shows, it was positive universally, for all kinds of students, at all grade levels, with all kinds of special needs. But I think that the most important conclusion that was reached from that, and Michael has a very good point when he says you ought to hire better teachers and put money into teachers. Effective teacher training was... one of the most important findings is that information technology or computer technology was most effectively used when it was being employed by teachers who really understood the technology themselves. But most importantly, students respond most effectively to software programs that offer students a sense of control over their learning environment, arouse their curiosity -- particularly with the lower achievers, offer students sense of control, use multiple appropriate levels of difficulty -- so it's not a one-size-fits-all kind of product, and includes an element of fantasy or animation. And those are the kinds of products that students are responding to today. Host: Michael Schrage, Ken Wasch keeps indirectly referring to you, we might as well bring you into the discussion. Michael Schrage is a columnist for the LA Times. Now you've written in your columns... you've been critical of the report that Ken Wasch just spoke of from the Software Publishers Association. You've written that computers are irrelevant in the quality of education. Why did you say that? MS: Primarily because it's true. If you look at international comparisons of performance in education in such areas as language and mathematics, you see that the United States consistently falls 15th or 20th behind countries like Germany, Singapore, Israel. And, you know what? Those school systems in other countries don't rely on personal computers or any kind of information technology to boost the learning capacity or educational capabilities of their children. So, I want to stress a critical thing here. It's not that computers shouldn't be in the schools or should be completely banished from the schools, but we didn't... when the automobile came to the United States, we didn't decide to redesign our curricula around the automobile. When the telephone came we didn't design our curriculum around the telephone and put a telephone on every child's desk in school. But for some reason computers are the wave of the future and now everybody wants to put a computer on everyone's desk. So we're designing the curriculum around the technology instead of really fundamentally rethinking what it is we want our schools to do. Now if, after we fundamentally rethink what we want our schools to do, we feel that computers can play a useful role in helping achieve that, then let's bring the computers into the school. But when you consider things like mainstreaming in the schools, people/teacher ratios, expenditures per child, community involvement in the school, parental involvement in the school, the gaps in socio-economic strata and diversity of people in the school, where do you think technology should rank when you consider all those other issues? I believe when you make a list of the problems and challenges facing the school systems, the role of technology probably doesn't even make it into the top ten. Host: Carol Edwards... Carol Edwards: This is Carol Edwards from the National Foundation for the Improvement of Education. I'd like to say, first of all, computers are not driving the curriculum. I think we're having a little hyperbole on both ends here. From Michael and from Ken. In fact, the new performance standards that are being proposed are being proposed by teachers and practitioners in subject areas, and as an aside to that, they're looking at how technology might facilitate what children ought to be able to know and do. We've seen that with the new national standards in mathematics, we're seeing it with the standards in English and other areas. These professional associations are the ones that are, regardless of technology, are looking at what kids should know and be able to do and then they're looking at what kinds of technology might facilitate kids knowing and being able to do what they should. Host: Okay, Carol, I'm glad you brought in performance standards. Let's use a specific example. I want to bring Dan Leopard into the discussion, he's been a teacher for ten years. San Diego county, Clearview Elementary, and I really would like everyone to think about this. After computers, the Internet, the video-conferencing with San Diego State University professors, all of these experiments that were implemented, in that school district test scores rose from the 17th to the 80th percentile. Now, Dan, you worked in San Diego, is that hyperbole? These are performance standards. Dan Leopard: Actually, that's interesting because I think that what happens is you teach the test again. mean essentially what they're doing is, it seems to me -- I can't say for certain because I wasn't in the particular school, but it seems, as usual with these things is that you have a goal you want to reach, and anybody can teach students to perform to a certain level. I actually wanted to discuss something that Michael said, in reference to certain kids. I mean, I've actually been in a class with kids working with technology, working with a range of students all the way from gifted to inner-city kids with learning handicaps and emotional disabilities and things, and the computer is a tool. The computer is not some kind of savior or something like that, and I don't think that the teachers see it that way. What I think is the problem is that a lot of people do kind of push the computers as this sort of like ultimate success story in education. And, just like a book, it doesn't operate on its own, you need a human being there to actually work it. And I think that the kids push towards this idea of like, oh at home I have this equipment that does all these amazing things and at school, it's like, cut-rate. I think that the educators have to realize they're never going to be up to the level of private individuals who can buy computers that are very expensive with bells and whistles on them. At schools, a lot of times, we work with second-hand technology, and it actually works fine. I mean, a word processing program on a Mac Plus does word processing. That's what you need it to do, it helps with learning to write, learning to read. It doesn't have to have color, it doesn't have to have like these amazing graphics that go with it, and I think a lot of that stuff gets pushed by Broderbund or the various other companies that actually.... You know, the latest "Carmen Sandiego" I can't use because, basically, it takes too long. You've got to load all these graphics -- they've got great amazing pictures, but the kids really like the black and white version. It goes really fast, and you can really go through multiple areas very rapidly and they want speed not full color graphics that's like a hologram. Host: Well, it does raise an interesting issue, Ken Wasch, in preparing for the show I've heard and read the lament of many students and teachers that they feel dumped on. They've got free hardware, free or low-cost software, all sitting in some computer lab somewhere, no one is skilled in how to use it. I mean, wouldn't it be a better boon to education if some of these educational software companies sent some tech support out to the schools to explain the existing simple, black and white, basic software programs that Dan was just referring to? KW: Yeah, I think that's a good suggestion. I think it would be hard for anyone to argue against that. That effective, district level involvement and leadership within school districts, to try to make sure the teachers who are using the computers get the most out of them is unrefutable. It is absolutely necessary. And I think the publishers could do, to speak candidly,think the publishers could do a better job of sending representatives out to teach... to give some customer support on that. DL: A lot of times what happens, though unfortunately, is that there is a big hype. Printed materials are sent to the schools and they invest in this program and then there is expected to be tech support and then, it's not necessarily not given it's made difficult. And a lot of times, in the school district you've got lots of other things to be considered in the school and having to badger a publisher to come out and help you with this equipment, that the actual tech people at the district level might not know about, makes it very difficult to get that support. Host: Carol Edwards... CE: It speaks to the need for having a good technology planning from the outset. And if a district or if the school has the technology planning, what they do is put the professional development of the teachers first, and then they put the acquisition of hardware and software. Host: Who really does that though? CE: More and more school districts around the country have site planning councils, and they do recognize the need for professional development of teachers and are putting that as a high priority. In Oregon, for example, there are a number of school districts that are engaged in site planning in that way. Just recently, in the state of Florida, funds were provided for teachers, this is at the local teacher level, for teachers to engage in professional development and also to be intimately involved in the selection process of hardware and software. Host: Michael Schrage? MS: Look, that sounds very nice, and frankly, it's one of these things that really sounds a lot better over the radio than it does in hard practice. I am familiar, intimately familiar, with several large companies -- and several small companies that are for-profit, and they tried to do technology planning, and they can't do it. Because of the rate of change, the kind of things that they have to do are constantly shifting all the time, and it is very difficult even for organizations that have a bottom line prerogative to do technology planning. Now you have the school systems which have, let's be charitable, a miserable reputation of assimilating technology into their environments. And we're asking them, in addition to teaching our children, in addition to dealing with declining budgets, to assimilate technology that is changing every 18 months. And we talk about buying a piece of software, well, this software is supposed to be upgraded... are you going to have outdated software in the same way we have outdated text books in the school systems? The idea, excuse me just one second Ken, the idea that we can plan our way out of these things with institutions that have a miserable reputation of managing change, but now they can finally do it because of all this new technology is delusional. It's delusional. Host: Author of Shared Minds: the New Technologies of Collaboration, just speaking was Michael Schrage. Ken Wasch, you want to get in on this discussion, but I just want to remind our listeners that they are listening to "The Communications Revolution." You can contact us via E-mail at kpfa@well.com, or if you'd like to continue discussing today's topic on-line after the show, join us on the Internet, on our IRC channel which has the name, trp6. Ken Wasch with the Software Foundation. KW: Just to respond to Michael, quickly, I don't think anybody's arguing that you take a bunch of computers and dump them on the schools' doorsteps and expect the students to be effective at using them or that they will be effective in teaching Johnny to read or do math. What is interesting, Michael, is that the schools have become very effective at using second generational technology. I mean, God knows how many Apple IIs are still in use in elementary schools of America today, but they're still effective tools. So, nobody's ever asking the schools to keep up with technology on a day to day.... MS: I'm sorry, Ken, that's just what Carol was saying about technology planning and you're bringing up the example of the Apple II which is a computer that Apple no longer makes. I agree with you but, I want to stress.... KW: But wait, we understand that Apple no longer makes it, but the question is: Are the Apples that are still in schools today effectively being used? MS: I hope and believe... yes, but my only point, though, is that we have Carol talking about the importance of technology planning and what you have here are school systems that have a commitment to what is legitimately an obsolete technology. I want to stress that there are a lot of teachers, and even more students, doing very creative things with computers in the schools. I don't think that computers are evil technologies, some of my best friends are computers, Ken.... Host: Carol Edwards... CE: And obsolete is in the eye of the beholder, Michael. And, in fact, where I do think we need more help from the software publishers is in doing very small incremental upgrades to be used of older products that we know that are effective and that could use a few bells and whistles to them by having a simple memory upgrade. If they were made in the early generations of Apple IIs, now people are getting more memory for their Apple IIs. Let's put a few more effective things that the teachers are calling for on these older programs instead of having the programmers -- have the companies dictate, "Well, I don't want to have to work on that program anymore," just because it's not fun to work on. Host: Which one is going to make the most money, though. Small, incremental improvements in old software, or... MS: Multi-media! Host: Multi-media, exactly. CD-ROM, etcetera. CE: In the matter of the way you think about it because there is a large installed base of older equipment there, and you buy goodwill, you buy a need for or a commitment to the newer technologies as the school system can afford it, because, after all, they're looking at these technologies too and evaluating them to see their effectiveness. I don't know of any school district that is sold on technology per se, except a few desperate school districts that are looking for an immediate panacea that will buy goodwill in their community. Host: Dan Leopard? DL: Actually, I have a question that kind of connects with what Michael said and also what Carol said. But, my question is, what is the purpose of technology in the schools? Because I teach in the schools, I work with technology, I know what I think I'm doing there, but I'm not so sure that a lot of other teachers I bump into, or the districts I've worked for, have any idea what they're doing with technology. Because the thing is, why have an Apple IIE in the classroom, why have it there? I mean, you can work with the word processor and things, but believe you me teaching with a word processor is no easier than teaching with a book. MS: What do you think you're doing with the computers in the classroom? DL: Well, the thing is, this is an important part, because what I work in has a lot to do with Voc. Ed. So it is a separate section, and a lot of the stuff I've worked on, I am fighting to get it integrated with the curriculum, so I'm actually talking to the other teachers that are in other subject areas -- content areas, because the thing is what I think I'm doing is training them for basically a post-literate country. I mean that's what we're dealing with here. The kids don't look at the screen to look at text. They want to look at pictures, they want to hear sounds. And the thing is, a lot of the stuff that I do is work with kids that have no access to computers at all. You know I work in San Francisco, and I get a lot of kids from the Bay Street projects. They have no access to computers at all. Other kids are like, "Oh, I've got this at home with all this mega-byte RAM," and all this stuff. These kids have never sat at a computer terminal, this is their one chance to do it. At least it gives them some kind of functional skills that they can take out there. Maybe go beyond flipping burgers which was mentioned at the beginning of the show, which, to be honest, working at Nintendo, as we mentioned before, pays a hell of a lot more than flipping burgers at McDonalds. Host: We're discussing Educational Software: The Pros and Cons of High-Tech tools for K-12 schooling. Just speaking was Dan Leopard. He's taught Film and Computer Multi-media in the San Francisco School District for about 10 years. Also with us is Michael Schrage, who is a Technology Columnist for the LA Times. Carol Edwards, from the National Foundation for the Improvement of Education and Ken Wasch, who is the Executive Director of the Software Publishers Association. You've been hearing from these guests for the last little bit and I'm Jude Thilman and this is "The Communications Revolution." ****break**** Host Jude Thilman: We're talking about Edu-Marketing, Edu-Entertainment, new technologies to solve old education problems. Call us with your questions and comments at 1-800-848-2298. Ken Wasch, I had occasion just yesterday to go through some of this educational software, and I'm concerned about something in particular. Referring to our question just before the break, what are we doing with this educational software? What is the purpose of having this stuff in the schools, in the homes? The software that I looked seemed to emphasize consumerism over learning. We had a couple of little kids who every other sentence were saying, "This is brought to you by..." such and such a computer maker. "This is brought to you by...." Then a little girl, of course, who said, "I like accessories. If you like accessories, you'll love this mouse-pad." And then the little boy, a little bit later, says, "Ask your parents to call this '800' number with their credit card." Now, I find this rather offensive, using children to sell these products. What is your response, Ken Wasch? KW: Well, since I don't know the product that you're referring to, it's hard for me to defend that. Like any other industry, there are high quality products and products that are not as high quality. One of the favorite stories I like to tell is how Davidson and Associates, one of the largest educational software companies got started. Jan was a teacher in Los Angeles, in the LA School District and she was trying to teach computers in education and found that there wasn't the quality software that she wanted for her own classroom -- this was 1982-1983. So she went home to her husband and says, "You know, I would like to start a software company," and he thought she was nuts and now, ten years later, she has just about the largest educational software company in the country, producing 50-60 titles, and obviously very well respected. So it goes back to the question of whether people in our industry are involved with the educational value of the products they produce, and the answer -- at least in Davidson and Associates case - is clearly yes. Jan Davidson is the president of the company, but she is heavily involved in product development. Host: With all due respect, it sounds more to me like you're trying to prove the point by showing the success of the business angle, the fact that they've sold a lot. I think that that, to me, reflects how well the marketing plan is put into effect. CE: I think that if anyone, a parent or a teacher or an administrator wants to rely on an industry, whether it be the book publishers, whether it be the software publishers, or whether it be the soap sales people, to tell them about the quality of their product unbridled and not approach this with a mind set of being analytical, not believing any kinds of claims, using and applying good reasoning and judgement to the selection or the rejection of the products and have a purpose in mind for them, have a way to evaluate who they're going to use them, then they're not being a responsible consumer. MS: I hope that applies to the National Educational Association and the teachers as well. Host: Let's bring a teacher into this discussion right now. Deborah from Oakland, welcome to the program. Caller #1: Hi. I've been listening to your program, and I'm very interested in technology in the classroom. I do use it when it is available. This year I plan to use a cam-corder in one of my classes, and I think we have access to a computer, but I have some real questions just about technology as it like is almost becoming a replacement for real human experience. I have a friend with a two year-old son, and he's really anxious to get his two year-old onto the computer. Why does a two year-old even need to use a computer? It just seems like it's not, it's sort of being brought in at a younger and younger age and what about just going outside and playing and interacting with other human beings, totally without any technology whatsoever? It really doesn't feel totally comfortable to me to have technology in every classroom, for every teacher, for every kid. I mean, to me, as a teacher, I don't feel like that's why I'm there. Host: Thank you for your call Deborah. Dan Leopard? DL: I just wanted to comment on that. Because, actually, I think there are actually some tasks that computers do better. Such as rote skills, because the computer has unflagging attention to that individual student and in those areas, I think that it is incredibly... I mean, with mathematics and certain grammar type things, it does really, really well. On the other hand, it's lots of things that I don't think you even need to be near a computer. Or the video-camera, think of that as being auxiliary to the written activities or things that actually you do with the students. I mean, if you've ever done any kind of production and video stuff, you know that writing is a fundamental activity in relation to that, radio, obviously the same thing. But for these sort of like, base level skills, the computer is a way, is a great access point for the student to get into it, and actually learn these things in a sort of fun way and a very memorable way. And I think that is actually one of the best ways you can use a computer... like the Apple IIE can do those kind of things very well. Host: From Seal Beach we are joined by another teacher. Welcome Steve. Caller #2: Hi. I'm a high school teacher out here in California, and I'm very discouraged at the fact that I really don't know anything about technology. And the school, even though we're getting some technology, we're really kind of underfunded and underdeveloped. And I just feel really frustrated because I really want to use this stuff. I'm a history teacher. So I guess my question is, how do I go about educating myself and also, somehow, bring this into the classroom? KW: Now, I've got a good suggestion for you. There's organizations in most states called the Computer Using Educators (CUE) and they have conventions. I know in California they have a very strong CUE group, and in Florida, I think there's a Texas CUE group as well. They meet more than once a year, I know they have a huge convention in San Jose each year. And they have dozens and dozens of sessions on how to integrate computers into the various subject matters. I am sure that you, as a history teacher, would find a whole bunch of sessions that would be relevant in teaching you about how to integrate some of the educational software products about history into your curriculum. Host: Steve, does that answer your question? Caller #2: Yeah, that gives me a direction. I've joined VUE which is Video Using Educators and so if CUE is anything like it, I should have a pretty good handle on it. DL: Of course, keep in mind that you also have to spend a lot of extra time. A lot of teachers that I've worked with get discouraged at first because it is a lot more than, say, coming up with a one hour lecture they're going to give with slide shows or whatever, because you have to, on top of everything else, learn how to integrate that technology into your classroom as well. Which, people can show you ways of doing that, but in the end you have to sort of find your own way that works for you. KW: Dan, not to put you on the spot, but are you involved with CUE in California? DL: Yeah, actually I am. I've gone to the San Jose convention or the conference or whatever you want to call it. KW: It's in October isn't it? DL: Yeah, sometime in the Fall. Host: Thank you very much for your call, Steve. Let's hear from Albuquerque. We have Ben joining us now. Hello Ben. Caller #3: Hi. I'd like to just address the idea of children selling computer products over television and what have you, you said you were offended by that. There's a lot of products out there that kids are using, that kids enjoy, that kids have that are being sold by children, and I think that if you are offended by it you don't need to buy those products. Pretty much, all kids toys and movies and all that stuff is sold by kids and I think computer things that are being used in the classroom kids are using, and they should sell them, and parents are going to buy them for that reason. Host: Then you don't find anything personally offensive or exploitive about using kids that don't really understand the power of marketing, the power of television to sell products, who really don't understand what they're doing. To use them to influence other kids to put pressure on their parents to become consumers. You don't have a problem with that? Caller #3: No, I think you're underestimating children. I think kids really do understand what's going on. I mean, they're in a classroom with computers, they're watching TV. The information highway is here, and they're on the fastlane. When I was in grammar school, and all the way through high school, I didn't have computers to use and I guess I just barely missed that wave. And now I'm in college and the incoming freshmen are all computer literate and I'm becoming computer literate and I think that they all understand. I think children really do know what's going on in the world and we can't tell them, 'well you can't have that' and all this, they don't understand.... KW: I think that Jude is concerned that there are too many billboards along the information superhighway for people to enjoy the view. Host: Alright, thank you very much, Ben though, for your opinion, we appreciate it. We're joined from Washington, DC, now by Jan. Welcome to the program. Caller #4: Hi, how are you doing? I guess I wanted to ask the gentlemen, I'm sorry I don't know your name because I came into the show late, who sort of had a maybe not a negative reaction, but a strong reaction to computers playing a large role in the schools. KW: I think they're talking about you, Michael. MS: That's right, Ken, we do have to get together after this. Host: That's Michael Schrage, go ahead Jan. Caller #4: I was just wondering what other alternative do you have? It just so happens because of where I live geographically, my son, you know they have computers in the schools, and I notice that his whole attitude towards learning.... I mean that's not the sole reason, fortunately he has good teachers at the school, but his attitude towards learning in terms of having access to computer to use as a tool has sort of really increased. And I know there are other areas, in the Washington, DC area for instance (my mother's been teaching here for over 30 years), where they don't have access to computers. And I think it would, by having it there, it would sort of jump start the children's interest in other things. I don't think computers are the be all and end all to _________ or that there's any gadget that can cure anything of that sort. But their counterparts across the states, and also in other countries, are computer literate, and I think that they should be exposed to it. MS: I think you're hitting on it precisely the right way. Certainly children should be exposed to these things in the schools. I have no objection, for example, to having a computer resource center in the school, much in the same way that I believe schools should have driver's education. We don't design our history curriculum around the automobile, even though the automobile is an important part of our history. And I don't think we need to have our math classes and our history classes designed around the technology of computers any more than we should be designing them around explicit or particular text books. So, using these technologies to expose people is not a bad idea. I think the difficulty comes when people put too much reliance on these technologies. They depend on the technologies as a substitute for mediocre or below average teaching. They say, "Well, it's okay to have 35 kids in a classroom instead of 28 kids in the classroom because these two extra computers in the class will remove some of the burden from the teacher, etc." So basically I think that because the role of technology in the school, in most schools is not adequately defined, or well defined and well measured, that you end up with the worst of both worlds. You have not very good technologies working with not very good teachers working with not very motivated students whose parents probably are not as involved in the school system as you are. DL: I want to actually add something about motivation here. I think it's interesting because with computers, this same thing happens - I touched on this earlier, it's difficult to realize that education, teaching -- this is like teachings dirty little secret, is not television. It's not constantly engaging, it's not constantly providing you with something new, which computers can do. And I've been in lots of schools, and I have seen computers used as baby-sitters. You put on a game type thing, like Jude had mentioned various things she'd seen, and again, like a word processor is an incredibly powerful tool, but it's not exciting. It's not engaging in the same way as something that has little people running around, blowing up things and then it says, "Virginia," and then it goes on to something else, and you're supposed to get geography from that. And the kids drift towards "Carmen Sandiego." They don't use it with geography per se. What they do is try to get the goal towards capturing the villain. But, you know if you legitimately work on the spreadsheet or word processing, you are back to the same old problems you do with books. Is you have to work. You have to do some work. KW: I think this is an important point, I just want to reinforce this, that there is -- and I don't know if this is the by-product of the '60s eras or what, but there is this belief that education should be fun. And, yes, education should be fun, but the idea that it should only be fun and that undermines the level of self-discipline, rigor and, yes I'll use the word, sacrifice that's involved in actually learning a subject. I think it's a myth, and I think that, should education be more fun? Yes. Should it be mostly fun, or all fun, exclusively fun? Probably not. CE: I want to go back to Dan's point.... Host: Let me remind our listeners of our number Carol, and then we'll go to you: 1-800-848-2298, if you are enjoying this discussion. Carol Edwards with the National Foundation for the Improvement of Education, go ahead. CE: There are two advantages that sometimes occur from technology, and particularly when they are well used. One is that it can be very motivating to kids who have not been successful with other kinds of learning devices and learning environments, with books, with teacher lecture, with poor teaching as Michael said before. All of a sudden the computer comes in, it's new, it doesn't have a value attached to it that says, "Oh, you're not a good student, you can't do this." And a student will try and all of a sudden get engaged in learning in ways they never were with traditional or other kinds of materials. And we've seen that over and over again. The other point, before you jump in, is that sometimes computers allow people to, on children, to enter at an intermediate level instead of a novice level. So, for example, if there's a spellchecker on the word processor, and the ability to go back and cut and paste, and those kinds of features, allow kids to prepare a document where, once they master the nuts and bolts of how to use the word processor, they can concentrate on the content of their product if they are well taught by the teachers, and the thought process that goes into this product, this paper, or book report, or whatever it is, and that it will look nice. It is a product that they are proud of, and with much less labor than trying to write it out in long-hand, with the erasures, with the having to look it up, or spell it wrong, or cross outs and that sort of thing. Host: Our callers have been very patient. Let's hear from Donna in Berkeley. Caller #5: Hi Jude, great show. My question is that, I've been concerned as an Asian American sort of computer enthusiast that there is this intense lack of cultural diversity in computer software, children's edu-tainment, or educational software, and on the other side of that even more racist and sexist stereotypes in omissions that is kind of like the convention among the computer games. I wondered if your panelists could address the issues of race, gender and cultural diversity, you know... will software companies even have the guts to deal with sexual orientation? How is this going to get addressed, or is it going to get addressed at all in children's educational software or any kind of educational.... Host: Thank you very much Donna. KW: Gee, I remember the good old days when PC only stood for personal computer. Host: Good old days? MS: Yeah good old days -- sorry about that. So much for feeble attempts at humor at Berkeley. Actually, I believe that as much as I dislike this issue, it is being addressed. And one of the things that I am aware of, that several software publishers are doing, and Ken might want to participate in this, is that they sort of ask children who are using their software some questions. Like, "How old are you? Your Name? Aspects of your background?" And the software can be, or the game, or the program can be customized based on those kinds of answers. And, indeed, it is not that difficult to imagine math programs or science programs being more gender -- either gender neutral or gender specific. Same sort of thing for people from different ethnic groups. The power of a computer versus the power of a book is that it is much more flexible and capable of being customized to the socio-economic background, or the gender, or ethnic group of the user. I actually think the more important issue is, is this what we really want to do? I mean, do we really want to have that degree of customization, or do we want the school system to be more of a vehicle for respecting and integrating diversity rather than a little balkanized place where people are addressed.... Host: That's another show entirely. DL: I want to say one thing about that though. The kids I work with tend to be a whole range of diverse groups, and what they usually do, is when they get these programs and they open them up and they are asked to select that image that goes with them, they usually select like, if they are African American, they select the black person, if they're like Asian they select.... But then, so what? In the end it's just like you've chosen this... and then you're off on the adventure doing the same crap that all the other kids do. And like, if that's diversity in computer software, it's not exactly very deep. CE: The same fight that we had to fight, and fought unsuccessfully with text books, is the same fight we have to fight with computer software companies. The fact of the matter is that the companies themselves are not very diverse. They will put a little window dressing by having an advisory committee here or there. They don't understand cultural diversity, they don't understand the depth of culture. You might get software in Spanish and English, and maybe even try to address one of the Hispanic cultures, or a multiple, but where is the Creole - Haitian-Creole version? Where is the Laotian version? If it is customizable, it is not being done, and it won't be done, until the consumers out there pound on the door of the software publishers and say, "We want this done." And they are start.... MS: When are we going to have a Creole version of "Where in the World is Carmen Sandiego?" Host: I think the point being made here, though, is that people want more substantive responses, sensitivity to people's issues and to people's diversity, not just cosmetic changes. Let's bring our listeners into the discussion again. We have Daniel from Lincoln, California. Hello Daniel? Caller #6: Hello, thank you. Yeah, my question goes pretty much to what you've been talking about. It seems like this debate is centering on a problem which has been progressive, and maybe in this century of thinking that maybe education can be industrialized like every other aspect of our society. I'm just wondering, since the hand maiden of industrialization is free enterprise ideology, and the spirit of capitalism. And what I hear the software manufacturers talking about is the need to be profitable for their stockholders and so forth. How are these other questions of accountability, which it seems like teachers, and school districts, and parents and ultimately children really have a strong investment in, how is the accountability to them going to be ultimately ensured with free enterprise control over this industry? Host: Thank you Dan. Michael Schrage? MS: I think that is an absolutely terrific question. I think it is absolutely the right question and the sort of thing I would like to see school districts do, if they make the commitment to technology. If they decide to procure hardware and software, to do so conditional to certain performance targets. Be it on various kinds of standardized tests, be it whatever measure the school district deems appropriate and the parents of that district deem appropriate for their children. The software companies should have to post a bond and if the children are not capable or unable to meet the commitment that the software company made, that the software company forfeits that bond. And if that prevents software companies, if that makes it too risky for software companies to come into the public school system, then too darn bad. Because basically what they are saying is, "We want your money, but we're not prepared to guarantee the performance of our product." And that to my mind is the antithesis of what the free enterprise system should be about. KW: Let me jump in here for a second. I go with Michael's premise completely that there should be performance goals established by the local school board. As far as posting a bond, I think any publisher should post a bond if they had control over how the software was going to be used in the school district, and that's something they can't control. Because, back to the first question that was raised at the beginning of the hour, the question of, and I think everyone on the panel has agreed, that the most important aspect of making technology work in the schools is effective teacher training. Until, and unless there is effective teacher training and planning for the use of technology in the schools, there is no sense in requiring the publisher which is producing one piece of the whole puzzle to have to post a bond. I would like to return, one quick second, to a point that Michael made at the beginning of the program that we should never lose sight of... Host: Very quickly Ken. KW: is that we, our students have to be compared to students in other countries. And we must make sure that educational technology is effective in bringing us up from like 23rd in the world back up to 1. Host: Then it is responsible. This is "The Communications Revolution." I want to remind our listeners that if they want to continue discussing today's topic on-line, please join us on the Internet, on our IRC channel which has the name TRP6. From San Francisco, we'll hear from Michelle. Welcome Michelle. Caller #7: Hi. My question is related, I think, to a couple of the questions you just had about the way that these educational softwares are being assessed and purchased. I know that here in California, there is a very rigorous process that text books have to go through before they can be used in the classrooms, on accuracy and cultural content and a number of other standards. I'm wondering, currently, is there a review process that a software has to go through before it can go into the classroom? And are they being directly marketed to inexperienced buyers who might be blown away by the bells and whistles and the elegant demonstrations? Host: An excellent question... go ahead Dan. DL: I want to respond to that, just from a teacher's point of view. Actually, that's a good point because the software gets bought by whomever has the catalog. Somebody who's sitting in the computer lab and you say, "Do you have any stuff with CD-ROM?" "Yeah, here's a catalog." And you look at it. And to be honest, not to get off the point here, but the private enterprise folks making software actually do a better job of providing us with a cost effective product than, say, the big -- there's a couple of companies, I won't mention by name, have ripped us off for large amounts of money, because they give us a complete package. And if we don't like the complete package then we're stuck with it right? At least with the $39.00 a pop, we can decide what we want to do with it, and we can use it to our advantage in an ideal situation, given all the other things we've talked about. But again, the $45,000 thing that was bought would give us like six Macs that were like five years old that we could have bought for $10,000. We're stuck with that, whereas if you buy a card for $40.00 you're stuck with it. So I think in that regard, there is some kind of "rigorous" process and on the other hand we've got these people preying on people who have no idea. Host: Ken Wasch I want to bring in another caller, we're running rapidly out of time. From Kansas City, let's hear from Deanna. Welcome to the show. Caller #8: Hi. I've been wondering, how long is it going to take before computers totally replace teachers and books and what do you think that's going to do for our society? And kids training totally at home, you know, getting them out of the public schools, people don't like the schools, and bringing them home. What do ya'll think of that? CE: I don't think that will ever happen. I think that the way to think about technology is as value added. It is not a replacement for teachers, it is not a replacement for good curriculum, it is a value added to those. If in fact, it's not value added, if it's not being used as a tool, if it's not expanding the critical thinking abilities of students, then it is not being used properly. And that we ought to look at how we can make that happen, and again, it comes back to the whole idea of more professional development.... MS: I want to quickly disagree with that. I think the woman in Kansas City has a very important point. That if you have software certified as good educational curricula for the public schools, that the proliferation of these technologies may indeed make it easier for parents to make a case for keeping their children at home and doing more and more at home teaching. So it may well turn out that seven to ten years hence, that the proliferation of these kinds of technologies do further erode the public educational system because it does create an at home, or private educational option. Host: Ken Wasch, you get 30 seconds to respond from the industry's point of view. KW: Actually what I wanted to respond to is the prior caller and the question of central adoptions. There are 27 states out of the 50 states that have what is called central adoptions. Where software and text books and all of curricula materials get reviewed by some state body. So there is pretty effective control on what actually gets used in software in these 27 states. And it's the southern tier of states going from California to Virginia. Host: That is all the time we have for this hour. Much more we could talk about. Our thanks to all of you who called into the show, excellent questions, excellent points were made. And thanks to you panelists: Carol Edwards with the National Foundation for the Improvement of Education; Michael Schrage, Technology Columnist for the LA Times; Ken Wasch, Founder and Executive Director of Software Publishers Association and Dan Leopard, 10-year teacher in the San Francisco School District of Computer Multi-media. Thanks also to Monitor Radio for your help on the Washington end. Join us again next time. I'm Jude Thilman for "The Communications Revolution." .